BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?

Subject: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:54 PM

That's the way I saw it.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 12:07 AM

I think given his short time in Federal-level service it pretty darn good for Edwards to drag an old battle horse like Cheney down to a draw,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 12:31 AM

I think Edwards won, myself. More charismatic, very aggressive, especially towards the end as Cheney began to seem tired and to have more trouble composing his responses. Edwards' trial-lawyer experience seems to have served him in good stead here.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 12:40 AM

I don't know who won. I turned it off after Edwards said, "...I broke the rules" the second time. GRRRoannnn! I'll try to catch a re-run.

diana

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 12:40 AM

I don't know who won. I turned it off after Edwards said, "...I broke the rules" the second time. GRRRoannnn! I'll try to catch a re-run.

diana

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:04 AM

I think Edwards took it, although it wasn't the complete floor-sweep that Kerry had over Bush. One nasty bit was Cheney saying that Edwards' senate attendance is so poor that the debate was the first time Cheney had ever met him. That was a lie that was immediately disproved after the debate, when Edwards' wife reminded Cheney that they had all met at least twice before. Cheney's response: "oh, yeah."

But that's like a huge lying headline in a newspaper, and then a retraction buried somewhere on page 17.

More points for Edwards: Cheney lost his temper; Edwards didn't, even when Cheney lied. And Cheney lied repeatedly; Edwards didn't. Of course, he didn't have to!

The newspapers will sort out the lies over the next few days, and all the media will spin it however they want. Right now nearly all polls (including one from Fox) are giving it to Edwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:14 AM

I refused to watch it. Went Gigging instead. Was more fun. I know who I'm voting for (and I ain't telling) so why waste my time?

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:45 AM

Well it was more exciting than last week's. I give it to Edwards, too. He made some good points and Cheney just sort of caved a couple of times. Then, I lived in Wyoming when Cheney was a Rep. and I am VERY biased against him. Though, I did think he did a somewhat credible job...it was kind of like an old war horse which couldn't quite lift its head up trying to take down a young upstart.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:05 AM

I tried watching, but I can't go more than 5 minutes of watching and listening to the Cheney cyborg. It's been pre-programmed to say those things, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:18 AM

I saw it as a draw but according to some of the TV reporting this morning, Edwards has been given the edge...

Actually I was real disappointed that Cheney didn't resort to his now patented "F**k you" on Edwards toward the end when Edwards did seem to land a few heavy blows... That would have made the debate alot more entertaining...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: John P
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:22 AM

I think Cheney did a hidden disservice to his ticket last night in that he came across as twice as intelligent as Bush. Why would anyone vote for a man who is clearly intellectually inferior to his subordinates? Why would anyone believe Bush to be anything other than a mouthpiece?

I only saw about half of the debate, but it looked to me like they were both holding their own. Cheney was, of course, lying and flinging stupid accusations, but at least he can speak intelligently and think on his feet. Given that most of us assume that all politicians lie about most things most of the time, the truth will not set us free as we watch a debate. I don't believe anything Cheney says, but I don't have any particular reason to believe anything any other politician says, either.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:51 AM

Well, a whole lot of people voted for Reagan, who wasn't exactly the brightest bulb in the box, though he was smart enough to choose a VP smarter than himself: George H.W. Bush.

I can't figure out why The First Corporate Family ran W instead of Jeb, who is obviously a much better candidate and politician. I mean, the Republicans haven't had the smart politician in as president for a whole long time. They keep putting "Mr Folksy Prez" puppets at the top of the ticket, put the real power in the Veep slot, and win the elections that way.

My theory is that NOBODY would elect scary men like Bush the First, or the Cheney Cyborg, so they find a folksy puppet they can easily manipulate and control to seize the reins of power. Why, the Evil Corporate Imperialists even proved in 2000 that they own the Supreme Court.

And remember, American presidential elections aren't about voting for the candidate you are FOR. They are about voting AGAINST the other team. Also an important distinction to be made.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 09:56 AM

I think this was a debate where the "winner" would be decided by your pre-conceived notions.   If it were a boxing match, it probably would have been a draw - maybe Cheney would have been given the decision since he has the title.   Still, I have to admit that Cheney impressed me in the fact that he appeared the complete opposite of Bush.   His temper flared a bit, but overall he kept his cool and he made it appear that he had the facts, even if he was wrong. His appearance gave the impression that he knew his stuff, unlike Bush.

Edwards was good, but I thought he would have been stronger. At times he seemed naive but he had a strong finish.

Someone on the news gave a good quote - he compared the debate to old man Potter talking to George Bailey.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:55 AM

After the first debate between Kerry and Bush, my opinion of Kerry was higher than it had been before the debate. After last night's debate between Cheney and Edwards, my opinion of Edwards was lower than it had been before the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 12:42 PM

I agree with Carol, but I think that means Edwards did his principle jobs, which were to attack Bush/Cheney and to defend Kerry. With his obvious presidential aspirations; I am actually impressed by the fact that Edwards toned down the likeability and charm for the sake of the ticket. It shows me that he has the right priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:09 PM

WFDU - Ron Olesko: - Who the heck is old man Potter and George Bailey ?   I feel like I've missed some important characters in the cultural landscape. I missed the debates, but this reference has me intrigued.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:20 PM

They are characters from "It's A Wonderful Life" - Lionel Barrymore & Jimmy Stewart.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: CapriUni
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:27 PM

Well, Edwards did become flustered at times (as when he broke the rules in talking about why he is qualified to be Veep -- that was hard to watch), and Cheney did back his arguments up with specifics (Which strengthens my impression that Cheney is the main author of many policies of the Bush Administration).

But Edwards is more inexperienced, simply because he's younger. And he's a better, more fluent speaker when he's able to stand, and especially pace (that's why Cheney insisted on a sit-down debate). About half my professors in college and grad school were like that -- they had to have their "runway" clear before they could lead a class. It's certainly not a trait that indicates a lack of judgement or intelligence.

What angered me most was this rebuttal from Cheney over Halliburton's role in Iraq, and his role in Halliburton (copied from a transcript on The Washington Post's website):

CHENEY: Well, the reason they keep mentioning Halliburton is because they're trying to throw up a smokescreen. They know the charges are false.

They know that if you go, for example, to factcheck.com [sic], an independent Web site sponsored by the University of Pennsylvania, you can get the specific details with respect to Halliburton.

It's an effort that they've made repeatedly to try to confuse the voters and to raise questions, but there's no substance to the charges.

As I see it, the issue of Halliburton, whether or not Cheney was once its C.E.O., is central to the question of whether the Bush Administration is competent in conducting the war and rebuilding the peace. And isn't it the American people's right and duty to raise questions of their leaders and demand answers?

By the way: Before completing this post, I followed Cheney's advice, and put "factcheck.com" into Google. I was given a link that connected me to this site, instead. Oops. I don't think Cheney meant to do that, do you?

Still looking for the fact checking site .....

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:40 PM

It's factcheck.org, not com. It turned out to be a very funny mistake!

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: CapriUni
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:53 PM

Ah, here it is. It's .org, not .com. Here's their fact checking page for last night's debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:20 PM

When you type "factcheck" into google, it gives you these results, which shows factcheck.com as "The Leading Education Site on the Net". Then, when you click on the cache copy, it is blank.

That tells me Mr. Soros was up to a bit of sleazy partisan shit himself overnight. I'm guessing that Soros did some overnight google hijacking with factcheck.com.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM

They say that after Cheney misspoke the address, George Soros bought the address and installed the material. Perfectly legal and great advertising!

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: CapriUni
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:01 PM

Guest: I followed the trail that you left, and it led me back to Mr. Soros' site.

On that site, there is the following message, purportedly from Mr. Soros, himself:

"We do not own the FactCheck.com domain name and are not responsible for it redirecting to GeorgeSoros.com. We are as surprised as anyone by this turn of events. We believe that Vice President Cheney intended to direct viewers to FactCheck.org."

Somebody's certainly playing tricks. It might be George Soros, or some computer geek at Google or at FactCheck.com, or someone else entirely.

Be that as it may, if you do go to the correct site (which I posted above), you'll see that, while Edwards did exaggerate Cheney's personal role in Halliburton's shady doings of the past, there is, in fact, a good bit of "substance to the charges."

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:15 PM

Thanks, CapriUni. I just came back to post a correction to my earlier post. Wonder if someone in the media just assumed that Soros had bought the address? Because I did hear it on TV, just this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:46 PM

WFDU - Ron Olesko: - Oh God, am I embarassed! Of course, perfect analogy. And I'm a film programmer - with CRS :<

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:02 PM

Okay, now I have a question - was is CRS?

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST,soros
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:15 PM

apparently the people at factcheck.com redirected to soros's site
as they were getting 100 hits a second and soros's site could handle it.

did you see the part when Cheney unhinged his jaw and began to eat and digest Edwards?
he lives in the centre of the earth you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:24 PM

I don't think there needs to be a "proven" fact that Cheney has benefitted from Halliburton getting the no-bid contracts for Iraq "reconstruction" for there to be plenty of evidence of corruption and graft in this administration. I mean, duh! It is perfectly clear that Halliburton is the benefitted mightily from it's relationship with their former CEO being in the White House. Doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to figure it out, which begs the question: why the hell isn't the Kerry/Edwards campaign all over with that stinking, rotten political corruption story?

That sort of nepotism is as obvious in the case of Halliburton and Iraq, as it is with the energy policy task force shenanigans that has resulted in the Bush/Cheney give away/rape of public lands for energy development.

It is easy to prove. Look all around, it is all you see. Nepotism is the modus operandi of this administration, be it towards Halliburton in Iraq, Enron in Texas, the House of Saud everywhere you look, or everybody and their mother trying to open up the Rockies, the ANWR, for drilling in the US, etc etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:35 PM

Nepotism? "Dictionary: Favoritism shown or patronage granted to relatives"< /b>, as in business."

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:51 PM

Nepotism?

Colin Powell's son?
George W using his father's rolodex and cabinet to get elected?

nah... no nepotism...

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:14 PM

Having viewed the debate I was surprised to see Cheney not loosing his cool---and, frankly, Edwards not being his usual ebulent self.

One statement that needed a great riposte by Edwards never was made.

Cheney: (paraphrase) I am at most Senate sessions on Tuesdays and tonight is the first time I have ever met you. You have missed 76% of the sessions.

So---the riposte---"Some Tuesday sessions? How many? Where are you--as Pres. Pro Tempe of the Senate the other days?   Were you not there on the days I was?"

Too bad --since they were getting personal---he did nt come up with that.

I reiterate---Darth Vader against the Jedi.

Today---in non debate and scripted format Bush lashed out against Kerry in his usual vitupurative manner (provided it is written) and his writers had him explain his ticks and frowns---he is upset with Kerry and his statements. Tsk Tsk!!!! Best to talk to daddy--the Big Dick (Cheney)

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 09:22 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/
This link goes to CBC website for a program aired tonight (The 5th Estate) showing Cheney not only as a liar but also a traitor. Very powerful and damning.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Morticalia
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:36 PM

goddammit i want to see condoleeza rice elected

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:23 PM

Soros wasn't up to anything. Here's the story:

Cheney Slip Sends Surfers to Wrong Site
October 6, 2004 08:42 PM EDT

WASHINGTON - All he wanted were the facts. But Dick Cheney ended up generating confusion- and lots of it.

A slip of the tongue by the vice president during Tuesday night's debate with Sen. John Edwards led Web surfers to a site run by George Soros, a billionaire who makes no secret of his opposition to the Bush administration.

In answering a question about his involvement with Halliburton, Cheney meant to direct people to FactCheck.org, a nonpartisan site run by the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Public Policy Center. He urged people watching the debate to go to the site for facts countering Edwards' statements about the corporation Cheney used to run.

But Cheney cited FactCheck.com, a for-profit advertising site based in the Cayman Islands.

The company decided to redirect traffic to the Soros site after it became inundated with hits - about 100 a second after the debate, John Berryhill, a Philadelphia lawyer for FactCheck.com, said Wednesday.

"This was to relieve stress on the service and to express a political point of view," said Berryhill, who spoke with the site's administrators shortly after the debate ended.

They picked Soros not only for his political views, Berryhill said, but because the billionaire could afford the costly deluge of hits the site would receive in the wake of the debate. Plus, the site administrators didn't want to point surfers to a candidate's site that was asking for money.

Web site operators typically pay fees to the companies that host their sites. The more hits a site receives, the more its operator pays.

Soros was not advised of the switch and did not know it had taken place until Wednesday, said a spokesman, Jeremy Ben-Ami.

"We are as surprised as anyone by this turn of events but certainly encourage voters to visit both of these valuable sites," Michael Vachon, a senior aide to Soros, said in a statement.

An unprecedented number of visitors to FactCheck.org caused the site to crash several times Wednesday, said Brooks Jackson, the site's director.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:24 AM

Yup - Give 'em enough rope and they hang themselves!

...or as one of my co-workers exclaimed, "There is a God!"

d

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:49 PM

factcheck.org is not particularly supportive of Cheney either.
bad move on Dicks part.

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: Mudjack
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 04:51 PM

I was most impressed by Dick Cheneys ablity to respond quickly and decisive. His final comments especially impressed me in how Geoge W selected him as his VP. WE did the RIGHT thing. I came away finally realizing that Dick Cheney is the brains and Geo W is along for the ride.
The Kerry Edwards campaighn might be using distorted truths in their campaign, But the Bush Cheney campaign is using distorted LIES and I hope the US voters can see through this barrage of smoke screens and put us back on track to a better America.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: BS: Edwards / Cheney a draw?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 10:24 PM

Objectively it was a draw, which gives the lean to Edwards who has been branded unfairly as a 'lightweight' which is true in mass only. Cheney looked like an elderly CEO being asked as to why the company's internet site wasn't being maintained. Cheney also looked less energetic. He rose slowly and only walked a few steps at the end of the debate. Edwards was up and bouncing around.