BS: US National ID Card Proposal

Subject: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

The right-wing control freaks are not content with using SS numbers for "security" investigations. The latest Brave New Idea is to slap a mandate for a Federal identification card on American citizens who wish to remain or become employed.

Pretty shitty thinking, IMHO.

See this CNET article for the story of David Dreiers inhumanity to man....


A

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 10:11 AM

Have they put a tax on tea yet?

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:12 AM

Judging from the article, Dreier's idea is bad.

However, it would be a good idea to have an ID which is not linked to one's bank accounts and investments through the Social Security number. It also would be good to have one which is not linked to driving, as not everyone drives.

Then, the next time you want to write a check in the store, you would be verifying your ID without revealing anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: open mike
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:14 AM

I also heard that the federal gov't was threatening to remove federal funding from cities that refuses to subject their employees and job applicants to a Dept. of Justice screening...fingerprints, etc. such
baloney!

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM

Leenia:

I submit that your right to proivacy includes the right to be anonymous in the world as you choose, as long as you are not doing harm.

We can discuss extensively what the est form of a nationally-mandated ID would be. But a nationally mandated ID may not be a very good idea at all in the first placve...except for controllers and bureaucrats who would be more comfortable without the ambiguity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:22 AM

Leeneia, I think there have been National IDs one can get in the US that have been around for ages that can be used for identity purposes in lieu of a driver's license. The difference is that they aren't mandatory, and they don't contain chips with private details...the kind of thing that is soon to be instigated here in the UK.

Ah Big Brother.


Now where is that rock I was hiding under???


..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:39 AM

I'm trying to remember from when I lived in Luxembourg - I believe it was the law that you had to have your national ID card with you at all times, day or night, not just when you were applying for a job. If questioned, you had to be able to prove your identity, period. I don't know that it bothered any of my friends there, many of whom were in Luxembourg to avoid the mandatory 2 year military service that would have been required of them had they stayed in the countries they were born in. I'm not sure how that worked either, whether they had to become citizens, or what. But anyway, I'd love an explanation from some one who knows about this and carries a national ID what exactly the national ID is for.

In the case of that idiot Dreier, it sounds like a waste of time and taxpayer money, at best. There are plenty of laws already on the books with regard to legal and illegal employment, and if they aren't enforced, or enforceable, or leading to the desired result, then it's time to rethink the problem, not create more repressive and poorly thought out measures on top of the ones that already aren't working.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:35 AM

In the US if you don't drive, you still go to DMV to get a gov't ID - it's not a driver's license but it is an ID.
You can also get a passport.
Having grown up overseas and being used to being a foreigner wherever I was, I don't see the issue with carrying ID. If you got hit by a truck, would you want to be Jane/John Doe while your family wondered where you were and the coroner's office wasted time figuring out who you were? I think not!

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:02 PM

Mitzy, there are IDs and IDs. It's one thing to have a card with your name and address and photo on it for identification purposes, and quite another to have a chip in it which provides a ton of private information.

In the UK, it would contain your fingerprint, your National Health Service information, and quite possibly a lot more. Right now there is still a lot of controversy regarding it's effectiveness as a deterrent against terrorism, illegal immigrants, or identification fraud.(On top of which, in the UK, the cost of the cards, is estimated to be around 35 pounds!)

See this article


Still the greater issue for me is whether this is voluntary or not. As soon as it isn't you can bet that a person's civil rights are going to be at jepardy.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Mudlark
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:49 PM

Gah...the very idea upsets me. Surely there is no one who can't figure out a way to keep in their wallet or pocket a card with their name and address/phone no. (and a contact in case of emergency, is a good idea too). I remember clearly my first trip to Europe in the late '50s, and thinking how great it was to be an American, w/o the need for a mandatory ID in my own country.. Back then all Europeans, at least in the several countries I visited, had to show their ID...in hotels, on trains...even in their country of origin.

This idea actually surfaced during the Clinton administration too...I was so appalled I sent a letter to Clinton, the only letter to a pres. I've ever written. Apparently there was a lot of negative feedback as the proposal eventually faded without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 01:10 PM

I think most US citizens would see a National ID, in *any* manifestation, as encroaching on their civil rights - it goes along with being innocent until proven guilty. We don't have to prove our citizenship, or identity, or right to work - the onus is on law enforcement to prove that we AREN'T legal, not on us to prove that we ARE. Immigrants apply for a Green Card, but not having one doesn't mean you haven't applied for one, or won't be granted one, so it's down to employers to make sure they don't hire anyone without a valid one. That's where the waters get very very muddy.

I've heard a lot of objections about a new form of identity cards - so called Smart Cards that include a chip for encoding potentially huge amounts of data about you - from both ends of the spectrum. The Christians with a capital C seem to be concerned that it's only a small step from a data chip in a card to a data chip embedded in your forehead or the back of your hand - Behold the Mark of the Beast. Other people who are less concerned with biblical prophecy are concerned about issues of privacy. Since we don't have a national healthcare system, there can't be much justification for requiring us to carry our health records at all times in a format that any *official* person with a card reader can access, for example. I just can't imagine that an idea like this would fly in America, even given our current climate of fear. It seems so unAmerican.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem completely off the wall unreasonable to me that we should be expected to carry some form of ID on us - a driver's license, which most people keep on them for a myriad of reasons anyway, or a DMV ID for those who don't drive, and a passport for everyone else, meaning foreigners. But that would require changing our reciprocal agreements with Canada and Mexico - passports aren't required in order to cross those borders, and I have no idea what the repercussions of changing that would be.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: grumpy al
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 03:08 PM

George Orwell got it right, his timing was a bit off

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 05:04 PM

Ellenpolly,

another difference between the government issued IDs you can get in lieu of the driver's license and what is being proposed is that, like your license the ID is issued by your State, not the national government. So mine would come from Pennsylvania.

The more important difference is the one you noted: it doesn't have much personal information on it. But it DOES have a birthdate so you can use it to prove your age when buying alcohol and tobacco, which is the only reason I've ever known anyone to get one.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM

Reminds me of those old movies where the Nazi would say:

"do you have your papers? Show me your papers!"

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Peace
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 07:05 PM

Imagine a paperless society--money being paper and so being gone. The only access to goods or services through a user card. No card, no goods or services. Huh. Sounds like a sci-fi scenario. Fortunately, it couldn't happen here.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 07:43 PM

Next step - a microchip inserted at birth. You wouldn't have to carry anything. Just a swipe of a reading wand and you are on your way.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 07:54 PM

Next step. "That which is not compulsory is forbidden."

troll

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Peace
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 09:36 PM

Well said, O Orwellian ghost.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:51 AM

Nerd...HAH! I just WISH I looked young enough for someone to card me these days!!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Fishpicker
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:11 PM

It is interesting to note that other countries who have a national ID/papers system have not made themselves exempt from terrorism. This thing is just another step toward a totalitarian government and given the last four years of this administration we are well on our way to it. Less rights, more control is their game. The patriot act may well be one of the biggest blows to our constitutional and civil rights in our history as a republic. Both presidential candidates, IMO, will further this agenda but will come at it from different directions. Same shit, different parasite!

                           FP

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: jaze
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:47 PM

Well since theoretically, it's terrorists they're trying to find, it seems this should be required of all NON-citizens who are in this country for whatever reason. That would make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:01 PM

So, when does the blackmarket start on these ID Cards?

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: MudGuard
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:22 PM

What exactly do you fear when you should have to carry an ID card?

I carry my ID card with me almost all the time (as required by law here). So what?

Subject: RE: BS: US National ID Card Proposal
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:01 PM

The objection I think could be the possible inclusion of DNA, economic info and stuff that is basically nobody's business 'cept yorn. I carry ID also. Some of it's even accurate.