Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?

Subject: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:06 PM

My beloved partner Byron formed a duo with a harpist, and they called themselves "Seanmas". Byron said he found the word somewhere on-line, and that it meant "minstrels" or "musicians" in Irish. I haven't been able to find this word, so am wondering if someone here can confirm or refute it. I have revived the duo with the harpist, and we want to keep the name, but want to be sure to use it correctly!
I've tried to find an Irish-English on-line dictionary, but they all seem to need me to subscribe.

Allison

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: Jack Hickman
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM

Allison:

I just checked in my Collins Irish-English Dictionary and could find no such listing. The word "sean" without an accent over the "a" means old. Maybe it's a corruption of an Irish word based on a phonetic sounding.

Sorry I couldn't help, maybe someone with more knowledge of the language can help.

Jack Hickman

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: open mike
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 10:29 PM

i think there may be a type of music..
possibly unaccompanied ballad singing
called sean nos or something like that?

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:36 AM

There is - sean nos (old style) beautiful melodic ornamented and unaccompanied singing.

Stu

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: open mike
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:51 AM

thread here:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4429#24078

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: open mike
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:53 AM

and here:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4429#24078
or search for sean nos in the forum.

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 03:24 AM

Well, Ó Dónaill gives "seanma" as a version of the verb "seinm", "to play [music]". Maybe that's what they're after?

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:38 AM

Yes, I know about sean-nos, but that wasn't the word. I think "seanma" is maybe it. Perhaps Byron was making it plural- wish I could ask him.

Any other insights? What is the word for minstrel or musician in Irish?

Thanks, folks.
Allison

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:11 AM

In my easy reference Dictionary, Minstrel translates to Oirfideach, although I've never heard anyone use that word,

Brian

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:16 AM

The plural would be Oirfidigh.

Brian

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:21 AM

The "s" is indeed unlikely as a Gaelic plural - can't think of an example offhand."seinn" (pronounced "shine"), to play, has forms ending in m, alright, as JTT says - though I'm not familiar with "seanma". "seinm" I know - usually as the what's-it-called verbal noun "playing" or in present participle "ag seinm" meaning, again, playing.

"musician" is uaully translated as "ceoltoir" (sp.?) from "ceol" meaning music. There is also a noun "seinnadoir" (again, spelling uncertain till I check) meaning player.

I'll check older forms when I find my dictionary!

Regards

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: Reiver 2
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:31 AM

I'll ask about "seanmas" and the Irish word(s) for minstrel and musician in the Arizona Irish Music Society (AIMS) newsletter which is posted (email) each Wednesday. It goes to several thousand people -- not just in AZ -- so some reader should be able to help.

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:48 AM

Also found This ironically enough, given that I'm sitting in my house in Galway!
It is clearly an old Irish word (in the non-technical sense of not being current).

Regards

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 01:05 PM

Dineen's early 20 C. dictionary has "seanmach" meaning melodious.

Regards

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: belfast
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 01:11 PM

As previously noted, 'sean' means 'old'; 'mas' is a literary word for 'beautiful'. Combine the two words and you will find "it was old but it was beautiful".

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 03:41 PM

This is great information! Thanks, everyone!

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:08 PM

This poem implies that "seanma" is used as the genitive of "seinm" - presumably Connemara Irish. This is presumably the sense in O'Donnell referred to by JTT above.

Regards

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:40 PM

Martin, thanks for the link. What a poem- in English, at least. Wish I could understand the Irish (Louis de Paor's not bad, either!)

Allison

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: Reiver 2
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:53 PM

Here is the first reply to my inquiry about "seanmas" to the Arizona Irish Music Society. It looks, as other posters to this thread have suggested, that "seanma" is what the original poster was looking for.

From: "Ceallach_ak"
To: "Bryce Babcock"
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:54 AM
Subject: Gaelic word for seanmas


>I am on an email list "Scotslore" and asked your question concerning
> the word seanmas... Here's the reply:
>
>
> I asked a lingust on the Whiteoak list (www.technovate.org/whiteoak) to help
> with this and here is what he said (Alexei Kondratiev)
> Ellen
>
> < > "seanmas". Does anyone know if that is an Irish word and,
> if so, what is the meaning? A musical group wanted to use
> it as their name with the understanding that it meant
> "minstrel" or "musician" or something along those lines, but
> wanted to be sure it was a real word and that they
> were using it correctly. What is/are the Irish word(s) for
> minstrel and musician?
>
>>>
>
> I don't know of any word _seanmas_, but I suspect it's a garbling >of _seanma_, the genitive of the verbal noun _seinm_ "to play >music", which in some dialects stands as a word in itself and can >also mean "tune". There's also an adjective _seanmnach_ which >means "tuneful".
> The usual word for "minstrel" in Irish is _oirfideach_. >"Minstrelsy" (ie, the craft that they practice) is >_oirfideadh_.
> Alexei

The AIMS newsletter is due out today, so I may get a reply there. If so, I'll post it here. Though I think it would be safe to use "Seanma" as a name for the group in question.

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:02 PM

he may have mis-remembered 'siansa' - symphony? but otherwise he might have seen a phrase like grupaí seanma RTE which as a genitive might be translated as a group of musicians, but seanmas doesn't really make sense.

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:18 PM

Belfast - good one!

Seamus

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: Reiver 2
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:05 PM

I don't know if Animaterra is still interested in exploring this, but here's another reply to my AIMS inquiry. In case anyone wants to open it up for Scots Gaelic;

"Bryce, this added note is from a bona fide Scotsman living in Texas.

Ceallach/Kelly

In the Scots Gaelic a musician is a fear - ci^oil the accent ^ over the "O" a minstral would be either cruitear or cl^arsair the ^accent over the first "A"

There is a definate difference between a musician and a minstral in the concept of the word. A musician plays an instrument. A minstral may act out while playing an instrument and usually tells a story, via a rhyme, poem or song.

Hope this helps a bit.
Dave"

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:12 PM

Riever, I just saw this thread again- thanks so much!
We're changing our name to Seanma- even though it may seem weird to use the genitive in a name. It's partly in memory of my beloved, who first found the word (albeit mistakenly!) and partly because we already have a few concerts booked as "Seanmas" and it will be easy enough to change!

Thanks again-

Allison

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 04:36 PM

I have not seen "seanmas" in any other context but could understand it from the title of the thread.

The -s could be an ending to form a second (abstract) noun from an already existing one, in the same way as adding -ship forms musicianship from musician. Seinm is the act of playing so that seanmas would be some more abstract noun relating to the same.

Deriving an abstract noun from the genitive form of a noun is not irregular and seanma is a genitive form of seinm.

As Dinneen gives an adjectival form "seanmach" which means 'tuneful', seanmas could also be formed by removing the adjectival -ch and replacing it with the abstract -s giving "tunefulness"

In my opinion, you are on safer ground with seanmas wherever it was found.

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:13 AM

My sister addresses herself as seanma. She says the loose translation is grandmother. Shrugs.....not sure myself.

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'seanmas'- Gaelic?
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:11 AM

My sister addresses herself as seanma. She says the loose translation is grandmother.

"Seanmháthair" is Irish for grandmother. The problem is that the "m" is pronounced as "v" or "w", depending on dialect. Your "seanma" sounds like a hybrid of "seanmháthair" and "grandma". Nice one.