BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:36 AM

You are obviously busy with a little light stalking of me in the threads this morning, Mick, as per usual with you. Also as usual, your insistence that my opinions must be attacked by you, while people expressing the same opinion as me don't get attacked by you because...?

Oh right, you are still holding a grudge and hell bent on keeping up your personal vendetta. So admirable, your vengeful side.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:30 AM

I am fairly breathless with anticipation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:20 AM

Typical lame Big Mick attack the messenger tactic. Hoping it will deflect attention from the fact that "your guy" is just as much an abomination as Bush?

Well, if you get your way Big Mick, and Kerry is the next president of the US, rest assured a few of us indies will be right here to make sure you eat all the shit words you've been talking in support of "your guy" to win back the crown.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:03 AM

You just never quit, do you, GUEST? You are still so bitter that your guy never got out of the blocks.

RON DAVIES a very large reason that Kerry voted against the $87 million was the $20 million portion of it that was, in essence, a slush fund. He was concerned that it had no checks/balances on it and would be used to reward friends, such as Halliburton.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:52 AM

Both Bush and Kerry are equally bad when it comes to foreign policy, about that there is no doubt. Both are running on a "stay the course" platform on Iraq and the "war on terror", and both sound very much like imperial presidents with designs on other sovereign nations, when it is "in America's interests".

On the domestic front, Kerry's performance was much worse than even I, a progressive left, non-partisan independent, expected of him. It's a no brainer with Bush, he's awful, and there is no defending him. That is a given. But this political performance (I refuse to call these staged political events debates) was just one more rehash of canned, rehearsed, scripted political rhetoric from both men.

But Kerry's performance was really disturbing to me. He looked and sounded frighteningly underprepared on the domestic side. He stumbled badly on the questions about stem cell research AND his supposed strong suit, the environment. I was completely and utterly depressed after watching it, thinking that John Kerry is what we will get as an improvement over Bush. Utterly depressed.

Kerry is awful. Awful on health care. Awful on consumer protections (ie his coming out in favor of tort reform, and possibly liability limits). And excuse me, but if this man's strongest platform is the environment, god help us all. He said absolutely nothing about what needs to be done, what will be done, what won't be done.

It is beyond belief to me that Kerry is even registered as a Democrat. His platforms and positions on the issues are all Republican, all the time.

Where is the mention of the Wall Street scandals? Of Enron? Of the California energy scandal? Of the raping of the American West? Of the theft of the US water supply for energy companies? Where is the discussion on the need for universal, single payer health insurance? Where is the discussion of helping families with child care expenses, and not just college tuition, which is now a luxury no working class families can afford? Why no discussion of the nasty trade laws that have been passed to make outsourcing the new way of doing America's business? Why no discussion of the negative impacts of global trade on our foreign policy and abysmally low standing in the eyes of the world?

Why is there no discussion of the bedrock Democratic issues in this election?

I can't stand the idea of four years of Kerry, any more than I can stand the idea of four more years of Bush. Both men are working against the interests of the United States, and for the interests of their corporate masters. The only differences in their agendas is who is buying and paying for their candidacies.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:07 AM

Two very good points noted here:

1) Frogprince

"I'm still trying to decipher that" Yes that`s what Bush said after Kerry made a very good and eloquent case on the abortion issue. I guess that`s what he is often tying to do.

2 Dinavan

I agree about this thing about name dropping. I hate it when Bush does this to create the impression he is on best terms with all the big names. In the first debate it was Putin-Waldimir this and Waldmir that as if the guys were golfing buddies. What pure hypocrisy. However the satisfying is that there are people out there like you who can see through all this shite!

JB Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:18 AM

Well I'm listening....so you were praying to me?

*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:53 AM

Honey, we'll know who "won" on November 2nd.

I just posted my absentee ballot yesterday and did something I've never done before...

I prayed.


When I told this to a friend, he asked me "So, who exactly did you pray TO?"






I said, "Whoever was listening."


..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:48 AM

Bush kept carping on "consistency" being important in a president. This is what Ralph Waldo Emerson said about that:
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind."

The fact that Bush is unable to change according to changing conditions reminds me of one of the theories of why the dinosaurs died out, they were unable to cope with a changing world.

As to admitting mistakes, that seems to be a fault of MOST politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:46 AM

I also noticed that Kerry's closing words included a thank-you and a show of respect for President Bush. Bush, on the other hand, was so rattled that he completely forgot to even acknowledge Kerry, let alone thank him.

And yes, I do think it was his right ear, Ebbie. At first I thought he had his ears "pinned" surgically for cosmetic reasons. Then I realized that they were shiny and sort of sharp and wierd looking. Then I noticed that one was bigger and looked like a plastic replica.

d

Subject: Bush in my house??
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:28 AM

The pundits keep saying that the majority of Americans like him more and would prefer to have him intheir home.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I can honestly say the thought gives me cold shivers.

The pundits keep saying he's likable. To me he comes across as arrogant and condescending. He says the simplest, most mundane things as if they were pearls of wisdom then he smirks at you as if he thinks you are stupid. In the two debates he was just rude. Tonight he ran over the moderator's words like a freight train, breaking the rules that James Baker has negotiated to protect him.

Chris Matthew's said he thought that showed strength.

Kerry showed strength by pointing accusingly at Bush.

The pundits said he was too prosecutorial...

The incident does show the most important difference between the two men.

Kerry was mad at Bush and went after Bush. Bush was mad at Kerry and went after the moderator. Does that remind you of any current events?

What is it about this man that people like? I really don't get it!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 03:58 AM

Dianavan, are you speaking of his right ear? It struck me that I had never noticed before that it was shaped that way.

The group with whom I watched the debate said the lumpiness on Bush's back was from a bulletproof vest he was wearing. I imagine that's true, but there was a curious square shape outlined just above his shoulder blades. Just looked out of place.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 03:17 AM

I forgot to mention that Bush looked like kid hopping around, and name dropping and snatching at his title of "war president" to defend his right to the next term. I was also amazed at how he made furtive attempts to appear to be taking notes.

Whats with the ear? Has he had an ear job or something. One of his ears looks fake. Actually, both look a bit synthetic but one of them looked absolutely plastic.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 03:05 AM

A friend who watched it said that he felt Kerry won because his closing remarks were a heckuva lot more substantive that the things Bush said.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:09 AM

Well...

I think (as an undecided, American living abroad) who has been watching and waffling throughout this campaign, Kerry won on one very important point. He emphasized the greatness of the entrepeneural spirit, has faith in the people and in the constitution of the United States. He wants to lead America back into the limelight.   

He may have lost the righteous right on the abortion question, but he gained many of those undecided, single, women as well.

He lost the upper income group - oh well (they're the minority)

...but he won the seniors and the youth and most of all, the undecided.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST,Bo
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:04 AM

Ditto artbrooks above that debates are not "won" or "lost" like a wrestling match - only everyone wins or loses depending on the amount and quality of information gained from the debate. I have actually been impressed that there is substantive content to these debates rather than the "sound-bite-fest" in other years. I thought both of them presented their cases well - no major gaffes or "slick" attempts to play to the camera (enough of that with Reagan and Clinton). I agree that mostly your pre-conceptions will dictate the "outcome".

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 01:13 AM

Two thoughts: Bush looked like a hothead, while Kerry looked self-contained and confident.

And - I'm puzzled by the Americans who think that a folksy, down-home good-ol'-boy Texan is a good representative for the most powerful country in the world in this age of globalization. I've actually heard of some people criticizing Kerry because he speaks French, is at home in a European setting, and has travelled extensively. Isn't it a good idea to have a president who is sophisticated, intelligent and well-educated, whose experience and expertise is not limited to the US? As I understand it, before Bush became president, he hadn't travelled outside the US at all -- except across the Texas border to Mexico.

Apparently Bush pulled a real hick routine at Buckingham Palace -- if I were an American, I would be very, very embarrassed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: frogprince
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:17 AM

I thought another striking moment was when Kerry put his stance on abortion very clearly, saying he personally disapproves of it, but knows he has no right to deny women the constitutional right, and Bush looked dazed and said "I'm still trying to decipher that"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:14 AM

You're right, Deda. Sometimes it seems that if Bush ever admitted a mistake, he'd disappear in a cloud of smoke.

Wish we could arrange that. Well, the election should have a similar result.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:09 AM

Absolutely, Bill.

Just before Bush invaded Iraq I called the White House comment line and told them the war would be a hideous mistake because for every dead woman or child broadcast on al-Jazeera, there would be at least one more terrorist. Since then Bush has arranged for quite a few.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Deda
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:05 AM

cbs, abc and nbc websites all say Kerry beat Bush. EVEN FOX NEWS has Kerry winning handily -- presumably based on people voting on line!!

I thought Kerry did well, but it seemed a lot closer than the first one. Kerry's biggest missed opportunity was on the question to Bush about whether he'd made any mistakes. He basically just didn't answer, because he really doesn't believe he has. Kerry responded by pointing out a bunch of Bush's mistakes, but I think it might have been more effective if he had just emphasized the fact that Bush has no capacity to answer that question -- which is incredibly telling.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:02 AM

http://blog.johnkerry.com/ ...for better answers than I can give to some of the questions...

I still want Kerry to use the line.." some Iraqis may be better off with Saddam gone, but ask yourself whether The World is! The world is filled with MORE strife, conflict, hate, confusion, death and frustration because Bush chose bad reasons, a bad way and bad time to deal with Saddam."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:55 PM

Thanks so much, Kat.

Maybe one of his advisors will find a way to work some variation of that approach into Kerry's stump speech, which as Bill D. pointed out, is a little tired.

But at least it's not as tired as Bush's stump speech, which has fallen asleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:50 PM

I heard it on the radio...and I was clearly impressed with Kerry....Bush still sounded like an opinionated git.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:46 PM

Ron, I wish Kerry had you coaching him; that was a very well put response!

I thought Bush was totally unprepared for questions about the environment and drugs from Canada. I am disappointed that neither of them said anything about Social Security.

The pundits are saying men will admire the way Bush stepped on Gibson with his answers. I think he was just plain rude and should have been called to task.

Not that it matters, but Kerry looked presidential, imo. Bush looked like a smarmy kid who crowed when he thought he'd one-upped the other guy on the playground.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:44 PM

Pretty much, Ron, and FactCheck.org has a pretty good article on it (down at the bottom of this link).

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:39 PM

artbrooks is dead right. Particularly on the $87 million question (may be the $64,000 question of the campaign), Kerry skimped on the answer. I think he did give it but he whipped through it so fast that if you didn't already know, you wouldn't learn it.

My understanding is that Kerry first voted for the $87 million because the plan was it would be funded by a rollback of the tax cut on upper incomes. Then when he found it would come out of general revenues, thus add to the deficit, and not touch the upper incomes, he voted against it.

Is that your reading?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:38 PM

I am just tired of BOTH of them chanting the same catch phrases & sound bytes over & over & over. I basically agree with Kerry's positions, but for crimineys sakes, there are better and clearer and more creative ways to SAY some of those things!....I know, I know...he has to 'stay on message' for those who CAN'T follow a train of thought beyond two sentences, but at least he made a FEW new points tonight, especially clarifying at last a *position* about stem cells, abortion and taxes. Now, if Kerry would figure out how to explain that stupid statics about how and how often he voted don't prove diddley-squat!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:28 PM

The question is not who "won," because that is meaningless in this context. The 90% plus of the population that is already firmly in favor of one or the other will not be moved a bit by either's performance, their adherance to or violation of the rules of the "debate," or the opinions of the various media talking heads.

The real question is which one was more likely to have had a positive effect on the undecided voters? The answer to that, I think, is Mr. Bush. He corrected his more obvious errors from the initial debate (ie, no smirks or looks of disgust were visible) and I think he did a better job of working the crowd. He also received a number of questions that led directly into some of his more practiced stump comments. Mr. Kerry missed several opportunities; for example, he could have killed the entire $87 million question if he had addressed that topic more completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:28 PM

Depends on if any undecided voter was swayed by an answer.

My bid for worst bobbled answer by Bush: drugs imported from Canada

But I suspect hardly any ground was gained by either.

I wish Kerry had taken the opportunity to frame the Iraq war entry question as a question of trust:

"I voted for the authorization to use force since I trusted the President to make the right choice, to only go to war as a last resort. I learned I was wrong to trust him to make the right decisions."

"You should not trust him either."'

But Kerry didn't say this. Oh well.



Third debate may be different--domestic policy only----Kerry's strong suit, Bush's weakest

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:27 PM

Yeah, the winner was he whom a person already favours. :-) That's the way it generally goes. It would be hard to find someone genuinely neutral out there at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:22 PM

Don't know. Bush was a lot more conscious this time - he was speaking clearer, had more energy and was less surprised. Nothing new on points about Iraq. Kerry had more facts, Bush had more spin. Bush was more on the defense, Kerry on the offense. Bush demonstrated a lack of much knowledge about stem cell research and got hammered on the economy. The winner was probably whoever a person favors, unless facts are important to them.

It still kills me when Bush talks about Kerry being a tax-and-spend liberal and almost immediately launches into a speil about how he wants to budget $X billion for this, and $X billion for that. But there will be more tax cuts. Your basic spend-and-spend-more economic policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Cruiser
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:14 PM

Kerry

Subject: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 10:56 PM

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