BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 03:36 PM

Well McGrath, it sounds to me like your hatred is blinding you to the man, while leading you towards an unquestioning acceptance of the anti-Bush hysteria your liberal beliefs insist are true.

Look, I'm all for Bush whacking the politician. I'm even for Bush whacking the man. But I'm not so blinded by hate and prejudice of people with radically different political and worldviews than my own, to think they have no redeeming qualities as human beings.

God, if I'm ever that bigoted I hope someone will shoot me, and end my cynical misery.

But that will be the legacy of this US election, to be sure. Hatred of Bush that got so out of line that people deluded themselves into believing that he was worse than every other right wing Republican president in history. Which isn't even remotely the case. Hell, what Bush/Cheney/Rove has done was merely dot the i's and cross the t's of the American plutocracy's revolution at the lobbyist trough and ballot box, that was begun in the Cold War Eisenhower administration, and improved upon by Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton before him.

The bankrupting of the American political system has been in the works since the Cold War. The war on terror is no different than the war on communism. Homeland Security is no different than the House UnAmerican Activities Committee. Saddam no worse than the Shah of Iran.

Nothing is new here. Except that the shit that hit the working class and poor in the wake of the repressive and regressive right wing "Morning in America" is finally catching up with and hitting white middle class liberals. Hence their roaring their terrible roars about how unfair it all is TO THEM.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 03:50 PM

Nothing is new here. Except that the shit that hit the working class and poor in the wake of the repressive and regressive right wing "Morning in America" is finally catching up with and hitting white middle class liberals. Hence their roaring their terrible roars about how unfair it all is TO THEM.

That's true, GUEST, but it doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:08 PM

I agree brucie, Kerry is reprehensible, just like Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:22 PM

I specifically, and truthfuly, said it wasn't about politics.

I can think of people whose politics I more or less share, whom I wouldn't think are at all likable. And I can think of a fair number of people whose politics I detest whom I would see as likable.

To me, talk about Bush as "likable" is as puzzling as if people were to speak about Ari Sharon's slender physique, or Michael Moore's suave dress sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:30 PM

Martin - Was that a reputable source or reputable sources?

What do(does) your reputable source(s) say? Maybe those of us who actually watched the debate will have the oppurtunity to decide whether or not your source(s) are reputable or not.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:56 PM

let's just say reputable sources.

Let's also say that your decisions to me as an ex-patriot and as a generally biased feminist would not give me a fair shake anyway.

What you do and do not decide is reputable in your opinion is highly irelevant to me.

Please reconsider your "we" concept outlook of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:28 PM

Martin - 'What you do and do not decide is reputable in your opinion is highly irelevant to me.'

Exactly what I was trying to say to you.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:05 PM

Actually, Kendall, Emerson had nothing against consistency, per se. A motre complete quotation is worth posting and speaks directly to the BuShite junta:

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by
little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency, a great soul has simply nothing to do... Speak what you think today in hard words and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradicts everything you said today.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Sam L
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:24 PM

Neither candidate is what I'd call the best the parties have, but maybe I'm wrong.

I don't really feel like arguing with people about politics lately. I happen to think Bush is very underqualified for the job, and is a divider, not a uniter. Even if I agreed with his decisions and initiatives, I think I'd feel that a little diplomacy might help. Some wits would grease the wheels. Maybe he's a war president, but he's more of a Sonny than a Michael on the standard Corleone scale, if that's what you want. No wonder he's wearing a vest.

I don't much like Kerry, but it wouldn't hurt our perception in the world to elect the othrn, especially if you think they're interchangeable anyway.

Why people like Bush. Well there's the anti-intellectual thing, and always has been, so he's got that locked up pretty well. And I think some people simply find it refreshing to have someone who is happy for his advantages, and unapologetic, and looking out for his pals. That's what they'd do. The efforts to shame most Americans on things like this may hit, but they miss anyway. They're merely correct, and don't shame their targets at all. If you look at popular culture, I think you'll notice that we're liking stories of looking after our own interests, and to hell with everything else. Or, if I'm wrong, at least the Self-Help book market is still doing better than the Helping Others. And I've heard people say, about the war, "Well, we need the oil." That's all. No amount of accusation that the war is about oil will sway this opinion, so give up.
    This is my take, based on spying, and listening. I think people find Bush refreshingly cynical and unidealistic, and they like him also as an ersatz monarch, because they're tired of the whole dull, tedious, never-ending, weary chore of representative democracy. Argue ideals and righteous indignation all you want to people who are sick of it, but ask yourself if you really think it helps, or if you're just flattering yourself in the process. Guess what they think. They'll think you're a self-important fool, is all. If I was going to argue, I'd stick to pointing out that Bush is not very good at looking after his own or national interests. He's no Michael Corleone, he's Sonny, and he's going to screw up worse if he has the chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:34 PM

Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?

I don't know who did, but I do know who didn't. The American people didn't win. That's a fer shore.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:46 PM

All Kerry had to do to win was break even, and not lose any momentum. It is clear that he did that at the very least. The third debate ought to be a doozy as Bush is feeling the heat. He is still the odds-on favorite, but it is going to be really, really close.

All the best,

Mick on his way to a gig.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:47 PM

Clear as mud.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:42 PM

So people like the Bush's style because they think he's no better than they are. and they don't have a a very high opinion of themselves?

Makes a kind of sense, I suppose. Sort of Homer Simpson in politics. Except that Bush comes across as much more like Mr Burns.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM

Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat.

    -- Maybe this is one of Dubya's down-home Texan expressions, but it's puzzling nevertheless, Washington, D.C., Sep. 17, 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:19 PM

It reads like a mystery, a novel. It's well written.

    -- Dubya's assessment of the 9/11 Commission's report, and a statement I'm sure will make the country feel a whole lot better, Crawford, Texas, Jul. 26, 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: GUEST,tarheel
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:37 PM

well,if no one else is gonna have the guts to say it,i will! i feel bush won,but of course i'm prejudice! i liked bush before kerry ever thought of running for president! so...i know i'll get the usual crap from all the "libbies" in here,but i don't care!it seems you all have your opinion and feel ok with others as long as they're opinion doesn't have a 180 degree of differences from yours!...hey,i'm conservative and i love my country and i support bush and vote republican!...please,no crap from you uk or other country folks not involved in our election!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:39 PM

Ahhhhh, will that be Bush or BushLite???...

Like GUEST, I'm real concerned that Kerry is another corporate man. Jus different corporations...

I'm also concerend that he doesn't speak about the working poor which tens upon milllions of folks comprise.

He also doesn't speak of publicly funded elections or things he might do to rstrore democracy by introducing a constitiutional ammmendendment that would require all districts for the House of Representatives be competitive. He also doesn't speak of the imporatnce of third or forth or fifth parties... I would think that if he were indeed the liberal that Bush says he is that these issues would be importnat to Kerry...

With that said, I am leaning toward voting aginst Bush even though it will take some serious holding of the nose to do so...

Sure wish Kerry was liberal...

But he ain't. The only thing he's got going for him is that he is not Bush...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:44 PM

Jaysus, Tarheel, ya don't want foreign nationals commenting on the United States and its President than use messages, not BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:49 PM

By the way, your President is a horse's ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:56 PM

That is an insult to good horseflesh.

Well, but to be serious...tarheel, the rest of the World is concerned about the American election because America scares the rest of the World and affects the rest of the World. We don't expect you to be concerned about Canadian elections, because we are well aware that we don't scare anybody. :-) (nor do we wish to)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:12 PM

But I said it first, dianavan.

And it matters to me more as I do live in this country.


Isn't asking a question as is the topic of this thread on a website such as this which is probably 95% folksinger liberal so highly skewered that really it is the same as if it were as a discussion on a Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity website.

I wonder how many here would be treading water in one of those discussions.

I have really been trying to look at the whole thing from both angles. What I have to admit that I do see is such an "anything but Bush" attitude, that a lot of what is at stake is no longer an issue for them. I'll tell you what. Those people are going to have a heck of a harder time dealing with it if Bush wins than I am if Kerry wins. Michael Moore just might need to eat a couple of pizzas just to get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:18 PM

He'll have the big one if that happens, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:58 PM

Well, PeeDeeCee (9 Oct 1:14 AM), you're right. Plenty of Americans are plenty embarrassed, not to mention outraged, to have Bush as the alleged "president", for a long catalogue of reasons we've discussed ad nauseam.

But then there are others, xenophobic (whether or not they know what the word means) reactionaries who basically are also "Second Coming" Republicans---wouldn't vote for a Democrat if he came down from the sky accompanied by angel trumpets.

However there are probably a majority of voters, Democrat, Republican, and independent in the US, who, in addition to opposing Bush for the above list of reasons, are thinking individuals, and therefore will send Bush back to his people, the subjects of the second paragraph, in November.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Sam L
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 02:22 AM

I too have been seriously trying to look at it from both angles, but I still feel "anyone but Bush" has its points, globally speaking. He's not qualified for Chief Executive. He's not quite a great communicator. I can't get very happy about Kerry, really, but. I believe Bush may have made a few right decisions, but I fear it's like a stopped clock telling the time.

The only thing that really stuck with me from Moore's 911 movie was not one Senator. The rest seemed overwrought about daily news, or somewhat questionable as a proposition. Please, please, don't re-elect a single Senator. What on earth are they good for?

Homer Simpson was voted greatest man in America by a landslide. You can trash our president, you can trash our also-rans, but be careful what you say about our heros. Or we'll bomb you or something because of your known ties with Al Kinda. I'm talking about a man. A man--who gave up a ride in the Duff Beer blimp in a really stupid attempt to try to make his daughter Lisa feel better about herself. A man--who... now I'm getting choked up--ah, go fuck yourselves!

   There was a great scene in the Sopranos when Tony's analyst spoke of what was needed if they were ever going to get at the truth, and Tony said "Da trute--I'm a fat crook from Jersey" which summed it all up pretty neatly. The truth isn't so big an elusive mysterious conspiracy-theory freaking goddamn deal, after all. Yes, Virginia, some people admire and fantasize about the winners on top, fair and square, or, um, not, and they hate and look down on those a rung below them. Yes. That's what I think, I think that's the way it is, as a matter of fact.

   I don't say there aren't other ways of looking at Bush, or other ways of liking him, or mean to insult anyone who supports and likes him. But I don't know them, or what they think, and I'm just trying to understand the people I know. I like and respect these people in ways, and learn from them, and if Bush loses, I will go on that way. But if Bush wins I think I will have to let some tenuous friendships go. I just can't quite get around it, hard as I try. I'm not that well informed. I can't match wits with the best of 'em on political forums. I just keep hearing David Bowie singing This Is Not America, with the Pat Metheny Group, Sha na na na na na. And a little piece of me really will die.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 02:48 AM

Fred, I agree with, "Yes, Virginia, some people admire and fantasize about the winners on top, fair and square, or, um, not, and they hate and look down on those a rung below them."

Further to that I would add that the people below can see the people above but the people above can't really see the people below.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 09:23 AM

tarheel, I wouldn't criticize you because you think Bush is the better candidate, but I tire mightily of you friggin' conservatives who say shit like, "i'm conservative and i love my country and i support bush and vote republican!...". Let me just tell you something bucko. I am a veteran who has spilled blood for this country. I pay taxes, love my children, support my church, and love this country. I am patriotic, and you fucking conservatives don't have the lock on loving your country or being patriotic. My view is that by being a progressive and asking questions, I am being patriotic. So just vote how you feel you must, but lay off the horseshit statements. You don't own the high ground on these issues.

Rant fucking off,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 02:56 PM

"at the whim of a hat".

My first assumption was that Bush had "drop of a hat" and "rim of a hat" floating around in his mind, and somehow they got blurred and combined.

Butb then I thought, perhaps he might have had some recollection of Stagolee lurking in his memory?:

What do I care about your two little babes,
Your darling loving wife?,
You done stole my Stetson hat
I'm bound to take your life;
He was a bad man,
That mean old Stagolee.

I wonder if it'll make it into some future editon of the Oxford English Dctionary as a new meaning for "whim"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 06:32 PM

McGrath, who said "at the whim of a hat?"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 07:58 PM

Bush - who else? "Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat."�Washington, D.C., Sept. 17, 2004.

(This comes from this site)

But I was sure someone had quoted it in this thread - maybe it was in soem other.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 08:57 PM

I should have guessed. I remember the happy, smiley-face societies all playing nicely together bit, but I missed the part about the hat. You were right, though - brucie posted it up here. (I tried to find it earlier, and couldn't.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:09 PM

Also, Bush is not a conservative. He spends more than any liberal president, runs up greater deficits than any liberal president, ruins the environment, etc. He is a radical masquerading as a conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:53 PM

He's not "masquerading" at all- he and his handlers are up front about what they are doing & want to do, and the record of what they've done so far speaks for itself. vide The Project for a New American Century & etc.

Its the dumbass voters that continue to believe this gang of assholes are "conservatives"- simply because they style themselves as such.

It's stupidity - not terrorism - that is the current greatest threat to the U.S.

God Help America.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: RichardP
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 07:35 PM

Nerd,

It may be true that a majority of Liberals have been big spenders and a majority of conservatives have been small spenders.

However, it is an example of the commonest but worst philosophical error - post hoc ergo procter hoc - to suggest that you can therefore conclude that every big spender is liberal and every small spender is conservative (with or without capital letters.

Liberal is what liberal believes and Conservative is what conservative believes. What ever else is true. Bush'e beliefs are CONSERVATIVE writ as large as possible.

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Kerry Debate II: Who won?
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 08:19 PM

Y'all just reminded me of another more general thing on the great significant night: did anyone keep count of how many times Bush specifically accused Kerry of being a liberal? He almost might as well have said a &%@*^% liberal. However Kerry attacked, did he ever try to use "conservative" or anything like it as a smear label? Lord, if Bush imagined Kerry to be a RADICAL, I don't think he could say it without foaming at the mouth.