BS: Both candidates are assholes

Subject: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:57 PM

So vote Green! Vote Cobb!

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:14 PM

I come from Scotland, and I hope that John Kerry gets in the reason why is because I just hate that asshole Bush, the reason is he talks through it.
But mind you he has his good points, I don't know any but I'm sure that he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

There's another reason to hope for it, Tam....Kerry has twice the brains, three times the vocabulary, and double the character. His mother taught him the meaning of the word "integrity" back when Barbara was throwing up her hands trying to teach little W how to spell oyul.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM

Amos

If Bush wins, just how miserable will you be, considering how obsessed you are with hating him?

Personally, I think that more and more people will not risk Kerry and will tolerate Bush as the election draws closer.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: pdq
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:23 PM

"Gallup Poll: Kerry Better Debater; Bush Better President..."

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:33 PM

Martin:

If Bush wins, I will not waste any time being miserable. I will regret that so many Americans turned out to be so ragingly misguided and dense, but there is a limit to what I can do. I have friends in Vancouver.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:38 PM

There is only one person in this race that has any poise, compassion and intelligence and it's not Bush. I strongly disagree with the contention of this thread.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:49 PM

Only one candidate is from the party that tried to remove Nader from the ballot.

Only one candidate is lying when he proclaims in the debates that he provide health insurance "for all Americans" when his "plan" shows he absolutely will not.

Only one candidate is claiming to be pro-American worker while also supporting anti-American worker treaties, the WTO, etc etc

That candidate is John Kerry, and my list is really a whole lot longer, but I think people can catch the drift...

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:52 PM

If Bush wins, I will not waste any time being miserable. I will regret that so many Americans turned out to be so ragingly misguided and dense

I like that one - it pretty much summarises many of my views from a uk perspective.

I believe the single most important thing for the us is to restore its international reputation and having people liking America (and no that does not mean being wishy washy or not facing up to harsh realities, but to show an interest in justice rather than in bullying). GWB is one of the last people on earth I would trust towards achieving that sort of aim - I don't think he can even see that America having friends in the world who would support and co-operate is infinately preferable to dictating and expecting the world to bow down and follow through fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:55 PM

But here is the thing. The Democrats nominated someone that couldn't beat Bush. So therein lies the world's problems. We have no one to blame but the Democrats themselves for fielding such a pathetic candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:58 PM

Guest, your definition of pathos is pretty irregular, IMHO. But you have always tended to be hypercritical, anyway! :) As to who may beat whom, wait a bit.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST,Wayne Monroe
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM

If God wanted us to vote he'd give us candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:45 PM

If you like Kerry, put a BIG X beside his name. If you don't like Kerry, put a small x beside his name.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM

We won't be able to put an X of any sort beside anyone's name. We will only have invisible electrons that will do who knows what with our precious votes. We don't use paper and pencil ballots here, and most voting machines these days don't leave any sort of paper trail. There will be no way to verify whether or not the machines record the votes that people cast. This election may be decided by computer hackers (or Karl Rove).

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:03 PM

Really? Are people stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:05 PM

CarolC

100% agreement. Even I could alter the votes, and I am about 2 decades out of date in such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:18 PM

Yeah, GUEST, they both are purdy much corporate puppets... Maybe different corporation but like who cares?... But with that said, this ol' hillbilly is in top flip-flop condition...

Yeah, I hate what the DNC did to rid itself of Howard Dean and I've been purdy turned off my the Repubocrats foa long time now but...

...there are days when I just wonder if democracy can take another 4 years of Bush. This is one of those days so if I had to vote right now it would be for (bad word) Kerry and not Nadar, who is by far the only candidate with whom I agree...

But ask me tomorrow and it might be Nadar since there's something deep down inside me that despises the Democrats almost as much as the other fraternity...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:20 PM

Really? Are people stupid?

Probably. But the word I would have used would be "crooked"

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:17 PM

Yeah Bobert, the closer it gets to Nov 2nd the tougher it is to think in terms of 4 more years, no doubt about it. The latest proclamation from Camp Bush says in term 2, the new target that B/C plan to terrorize is Social Security. And of course, that energy plan thing. And keeping up that great job them and their Hallibechtel buddies who parked 'em on PA Ave are doing in Iraq.

Pretty tough to take the thought of 4 more years of all that.

I have always believed people should vote FOR a candidate, and cast a vote their conscience can live with. It is very, very true that a couple of Dems crossed their traditional party loyalties when they made their "experimental" foray into the 3rd party wilderness in 2000, and they still haven't forgiven themselves for that disloyalty (and don't get me going on how the Anybody But Bushites love to guilt trip them for it).

But I'll sleep just fine at night voting FOR Nader or Cobb, no matter what the outcome is. I haven't voted for a Dem or Rep presidential candidate in over two decades. Now, B/C is pretty damn bad. I'm quite sure the world would heave a big sigh of relief to get back to that Democratic liberal status quo with Kerry, even if the guy is a Republicrat conservative. The world is comfortably used to the liberals being conservatives nowadays.

But like I said, I won't lose sleep over my vote, regardless of the outcome. I've been an indie for a long time. I've gotten used to the disdain of the mainstream folks. Doesn't bother me.

But voting for Kerry or Bush? Now THAT would bother me. Wouldn't be able to live with that vote at all, because I don't believe in that system at all. I'd be selling myself and the values I've held to my whole adult life (well, as adult as I get anyway) down stream voting for one them two. And frankly, I'm not close to that desperate at this point.

But I understand and completely empathize with peoples' sense of despair. I've been despairing of these candidates since before the Iraq war, when it became readily apparent that Kerry cast his vote on Iraq with a jaundiced eye on the White House. The man has been grooming himself for a run for the presidency since high school, ya know? He is very ambitious in that sort of way. He will do, say, and announce anything that serves those ambitions of his, IMO. And he has been doing a lot of just that ever since he left Yale for Vietnam.

That is, after all, what every aristocrat must do in order to "serve honorably" and win the big prize. And it is that prize that the John Kerry and George Bushes of this world are after.

So I'll stick to the third party wilderness and let the American aristocratic plutocracy duke this one out. My vote and my conscience are safe, sane, and sound with either Nader or Cobb.

Good luck with your decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:43 PM

Yeah, GUEST, I know exactly how ya feel... I've been Green so long that it's difficult to rememeber thinkin' that the Dems and Repubs were, ahhhhh.......different.

My wife, the P-Vine, is all over Kerry and wants to go do the early votin' thing... Heck, I ain't ready yet. I keep listenin' for Kerry to say somethin' that I can relate to like "I screwed up. I shouldn't have voted for the 'Authorization'!!!".....or'

..."I won' take any money from any corporations"....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:32 AM

Hey, you two go off and vote for the green Party. If you aren't gonna vote for Kerry, at least you'll be making a statement and not voting for the resident.

Just do it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:15 AM

I'm so pleased to know we have your permission to cast our votes the way we see fit, Amos.

You Anybody But Bushites just don't get how arrogant and patronizing you all are.

Each citizen owns their own vote, and should cast it as they see fit. Even when it pisses off the Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:18 AM

And think about it this way, Amos. Lets say that GUEST and I vote for Nadar and you and the P-Vine vote fir Kerry. Hey, accordin' to my Wes Ginny Slide rule, that's 4 votes that Junior ain't gettin'...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:37 AM

Bobert, here is the thing for me. Both these candidates are so bad, neither of them can even pull independents and persuadeables of either party (ie the mushy middle voters that swing back and forth between voting Dem or Rep) to rally a majority of the vote and handily win the electoral college (mustn't forget about them who actually appoints the winner, because in this great electoral sham of a system, it is the electoral college, not the popular vote, that determines the winner). I mean, there is only two of them, and we are looking at this bizarre circumstance where with only two men seriously in the running, NEITHER OF THEM CAN GET A MAJORITY!

How pathetic is that? This deadlock thing demonstrates that once again, the Republican strategy of keeping the voters at home is working very well, thank you very much, and that the sorry excuse for a Dem strategy can't even get out their traditional base, because the party kingmakers keep picking lousy candidates for king.

Now, if a guy who may end up pulling a whopping 1% of the vote out of 100% is that dangerous and threatening to one party, I think it's time for that party to start serving the best interests of their nation rather than their pocketbooks, and head on back to the drawing board with their tails between their legs.

If Nader is this much of a threat with a measly 1% of the vote, just what does that say about Kerry and Bush?

It ain't much to recommend them, now is it? If Kerry is this bad a candidate, just how good a president do you suppose he would be?

Now, if B/C had declared martial law, and started shooting people in the streets of the US, it would be one thing.

But that isn't what is happening here, and everyone knows it. So the inevitable Democratic 11th hour hysteria of "oh my god, what if Bush wins" is going to really get intense from now until the election. The Dems, and especially those Anybody But Bush Dems, will out fear-monger the B/C war on terror/Kerry is a LIBERAL fear mongering of the Republicans as if 9/11 were a kids birthday party.

So here is the thing: can people decide NOT to vote for Kerry out of fear of four more years? Because that is the phase of the campaign we are in now. A lot of Dem fear mongering and Anybody But Bush handwringing and hysteria.

But you know what? It's just like we've been saying all along. Nothing changes on election day under this system. The status quo is rock solid. We will wake up to bombings in Iraq by the US and it's self-perpetuating insurgencies. GATT and NAFTA and WTO will be safe from the likes of the citizens of the world. The environment will continue to be trashed, species will become extinct due to our folly and greed, human rights will continue to be trampled, the Social Security lockbox will be thoroughly plundered along with peoples' private pensions by corporate "privatization", the military will not start taking care of it's Iraq veterans or any of it's veterans, the Enrons will remain in charge and no one will talk about their plundering of the US economy, the price of oil will skyrocket, wages will continue to go down, millions more will be priced out of the insurance market and millions will die or become disabled as a result of it, homelessness will become even more prevalent, we won't become respected in the eyes of the world, or even in the European capitals....

...regardless of who is elected president.

Nothing changes on US presidential election days, because we need a new electoral system. Not a new president, a new electoral system.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:46 AM

BTW Bobert, my pardner is voting for Kerry too, so I feel yer pain. But the last minute pressure, no matter how intense, won't sway me. I've been here before, so I'm not too worried. As I've said many times, who is president doesn't matter much in my personal life. Who wields power is what has an effect. And the Corporate CEO of the US of A is really just a figurehead for those who do wield the power, as akenaton has pointed out numerous times.

There is the Republican corporate power and the Democratic corporate power. Both wield power poorly, selfishly, and greedily. I'm voting for a candidate that represents true change, which is uh, none of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:49 AM

I think the "alternative vote" is always interesting. Voting for who you believe in the most does not always equate to who you decide to vote for. I have not studied American candidates in any great detail but it could be that I would find I preffered the Green candidate to Bush or Kerry. If that happened and in this instance, I would vote Kerry as wanting Bush out would be my top priority. If I was less scared of Bush, the likelyhood of me placing the Green vote would increase.

With that exampe, that would be my choice but I'd still respect the person who voted Green and favoured expressing thier belief in a candidate over tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:47 PM

Exactly, Jon. The problem is, the Democrats don't want anyone to vote for Nader or Cobb. They haven't attacked Cobb with the vengeance they reserved for Nader, but the Greens are still getting harrassed by the Democrats too.

Not very democratic, those Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 03:50 PM

Isn't Cobb a type of salad?

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:49 PM

Well, it's a right you have, but it isn't the most effective thing you can do. But if precious self-indulgence is the highest good, instead of actual change, then go for it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:06 PM

People have the choice to do what's right or what's righter. Many people perceive that Nader would make a good President. They seldom state why because even they don't see the possibility of him becoming President. At least with Kerry, there is the possibility of having a leader who is to the left of Bush. Also, who has served as a Senator.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM

The facts on the ground are that Nader is not running for the Presidency -- if he is, he's delusional. It is a given that he is running, at this point, as a gesture, or else as a spoiler. His supporters say not, that he draws evenly from Kerry and Bush camps but I find that hard to swallow. In any case it is a banner-wave, not a serious run for the Presidency. A vote for Nader is a token gesture, an investment in significatin' rather than matching any rubber to the road.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:18 PM

IMO, a vote for Ralph is a wasted vote. But in another sense I agree with the people who will vote for him. We have had so many years--all of us, regardless of where we live--of voting for the lesser of evils. In the end we have gotten used to what we get: evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:02 PM

Well, GUEST, looks like Kerry is pullin' up stakes here in Wes Ginny since his folks have determined that Bush will carry the state so, hey, Nadar is definately mah man... Well, he's always been mah man 'cept now I won't get 4 years of naggin' from the P-Vine fir votin' for him...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 12:33 PM

Attila the Hun is also to the left of George W. Bush, that doesn't mean Kerry deserves my vote. People like Amos, Brucie, et al just can't get beyond mainstream thinking, so they say things like their last cupla posts above.

Fact of the matter is, the majority of true progressive leftists aren't supporting Kerry. They are supporting Nader as an independent, Cobb for the Green Party, or the SWP's Calero.

Then there are the Libertarian wild card votes this year too, which will likely swing against the Republicans this time, though they usually side with the Repubs more than they do the Dems. This time, they want Bush out, real bad.

Like Bobert said, enough people may go off and vote for a variety of independent and third party candidates who otherwise would have voted for Bush, but who are as pissed off at the B/C camp as the Dems, so will vote indie or 3rd party instead of Repub this time.

The more the media ignores this group, the more likely I think it is they MAY have a more significant impact on the election (when you combine all those right leaning 3rd parties) than Nader and Cobb will. The SWP just isn't organized outside the Northeast and some areas of California anymore to have much effect, except in those pockets where they have deep roots, like NYC.

I'm really hoping that this election will be the high watermark for hate. In our local MN races it is so far beyond the pale of decent and civilized, I just can't stand it anymore. Too many "Wellstone's Dead: Get Over It" bumper stickers, and attacks on a woman running for the Dems who became a beloved crusader against child exploitation and advocate for missing children, after her son was abducted by a stranger, and never found. The local Republican Bushman whom she is trying to unseat in a House race has gone on the typical Republican attack against her. I really hope it blows up in the faces of the Republicans this year.

But no matter how vile I believe the Republicans to be at the national, state, and local levels, it doesn't mean I support the Democratic endorsed candidates. In Minnesota they have a tendency to run as a Dem to get elected, and then switch parties once elected, like Norm Coleman did, and Norm's clone in the St Paul mayor's office has done (Norm Coleman, who defeated Wellstone/Mondale in the wake of Wellstone's death two years ago).

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 06:49 AM

The reason I like Kerry is that I love the world and most people that's on it. Not all but some.
I just want to stay alive that's all, remember Bush has the Nuclear button?

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: Chris Green
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:10 PM

I find it quite scary that Bush appears to have problems PRONOUNCING the word "nuclear"!

Subject: RE: BS: Both candidates are assholes
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:35 PM

I find it even more scary that neither the Democrats or Republicans have done anything effective to stop nuclear proliferation since the Reagan/Bush years.

And that includes John Kerry's claim to have been "instrumental" in the negotiation of nuclear anti-proliferation treaties, development of a new generation of nuclear weaponry by the US, etc etc