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Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?

DigiTrad:
LILLI BURLERO


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Lily Bolero/Lilliburlero (34)
Tune Req: Lilliburlero (12)
Lyr Req: Lillibulero - Bill Jones version (22)
Lilli Bulero meaning (12)


Mrrzy 14 Oct 04 - 02:15 PM
dick greenhaus 15 Oct 04 - 12:27 AM
Mrrzy 15 Oct 04 - 08:57 AM
Snuffy 15 Oct 04 - 09:46 AM
Vixen 15 Oct 04 - 09:52 AM
treewind 15 Oct 04 - 01:03 PM
Mrrzy 15 Oct 04 - 01:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Oct 04 - 02:04 PM
frogprince 15 Oct 04 - 02:57 PM
Big Tim 15 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Oct 04 - 04:14 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM
bubukaba 15 Oct 04 - 11:36 PM
Bernard 16 Oct 04 - 05:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 04 - 06:19 PM
Bernard 16 Oct 04 - 06:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Oct 04 - 06:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 04 - 12:05 PM
treewind 17 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Oct 04 - 12:35 PM
Nigel Parsons 17 Oct 04 - 03:51 PM
Bunnahabhain 17 Feb 05 - 07:37 PM
Leadfingers 17 Feb 05 - 08:46 PM
masato sakurai 17 Feb 05 - 09:01 PM
mooman 18 Feb 05 - 04:48 AM
John MacKenzie 18 Feb 05 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 18 Feb 05 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Mooman at the backdoor 18 Feb 05 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,McGrtah of Harlow 18 Feb 05 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Giok 18 Feb 05 - 08:28 AM
GUEST 18 Feb 05 - 11:51 AM
NH Dave 18 Feb 05 - 11:56 AM
mooman 18 Feb 05 - 12:04 PM
silverfish 18 Feb 05 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Anne Croucher 18 Feb 05 - 04:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Feb 05 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Jackeenjim 08 Nov 08 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM
Joe_F 08 Nov 08 - 09:01 PM
The Sandman 09 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM
GUEST 18 Apr 09 - 08:33 PM
NormanD 19 Apr 09 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Saffron 09 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM
GUEST 10 Jul 14 - 01:19 AM
Manitas_at_home 10 Jul 14 - 02:06 AM
Lighter 10 Jul 14 - 09:35 AM
Jack Campin 10 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM
BobKnight 10 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM
GUEST 10 Jul 14 - 05:32 PM
Lighter 10 Jul 14 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,naina 10 Jul 14 - 07:35 PM
meself 10 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 14 - 08:09 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 14 - 03:12 AM
GUEST, topsie 11 Jul 14 - 03:14 AM
Mo the caller 11 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM
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Subject: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:15 PM

There are several threads about this song, but none address the question I have (see, for instance, this thread on it being the tune for the BBC world service, and this thread which states that it is also called The Protestant Boys, which I didn't know either - but my Cynthia Gooding record says something about this being banned somewhere, sometime, so I'm wondering why/when, and also if it was so banned, how did it become the signature song for BBC's world service?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:27 AM

The words for "Protestant Boys" are in DigiTrad, as is Lilibulero. Dunno about it being banned, but if it was it was likely way before radio was invented.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:57 AM

Come on, 'catters, someone must know about this being subversive!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:46 AM

I don't suppose it was a big favourite of Dev and the Pope


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Vixen
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:52 AM

According to the DT, it's the tune for "My thing is my own." Could that be the song that banned the tune?

Or is it the melody used to "tune the band?"

V (ducking and running for cover)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: treewind
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:03 PM

Lilliburlero (and thanks to Google for correcting the spelling)

Like many good things, it comes from the greatest English composer ever (IMHO) - Henry Purcell.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:39 PM

Thanks - somehow, the version I have says JAMES is the ass - was this rewritten by the American colonists? Perhaps and banned by the British here? And how did the BBC come up with this for their swan song?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:04 PM

Here's an item (dated 2000) about this, from radionewsweb about this:

April 17, 2000:In his radio column entitled "Jingle Fever" in the UK Sunday Times, Paul Donovan laments the marginalizing of one of the world's best known tunes.

It's not one of the many bits of extraneous sound which clutter up so much of the airwaves but " Lilliburlero" which has since 1943 been the signal for people the world over that BBC World Service News is about to begin.

Until recently it was played at the top of the hour but some two weeks ago new schedules reduced its use.

Not only that but the tune used now is not the one which would have been used during the second World War and which was also the official march tune for REME (Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) during that war but a new arrangement with more strings and less brass.

Donovan comments that objections to the tune centred on its origin as a Protestant marching song some 300 years ago but that it now "stands more for utter trustworthiness than it does for sectarian hatred, and the BBC's decision to downgrade it is, at the very least, rather sad."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:57 PM

I thought the U.S. had cornered the market on gratuously politically correct decisions.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM

According to a post by "belfast" quite recently, the tune is still used by the BBC World Service. This guy knows what he is talking about, so the tune has not even been dropped, let alone "banned". Where, Mrrzy, did you get the idea that it had been banned?      

Since it's a unionist tune, and song, though the words are seldom sung nowadays, it can hardly be called subversive either.

Problem is, although it was written over a hundred years before the Orange Order was founded, c.1687, it's now seen as an Orange song, and is therefore controversial. To the modern, liberal, mind, the words are racist and sectarian, but they are over 300 years old and revelatory of history.

Thinking nationalists also see it as such and accept it as part of the Irish tradition, though I've yet to meet one that likes the words! Most though, love the tune.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 04:14 PM

It still sounds like Lilliburlero, anyway. I'm inclined to think that using a different arrangement wasn't actually anything to so with the tune being used for "The Protestant Boys". After all the arrangement they'd been using all those years didn't involve lambeg drums or Ould Orange Flutes. (The Dalai Lama in an interview once said how much he loves the tune, and he hummed it to demonstrate, waving his hand to keep time.)

Another theory, from Songs That Made History by H. E. Piggot, states the refrain came from a popular Irish song when James II (a Roman Catholic) came to the the throne which had the Irish words, "Lere, lere, burlere." Lere meant religion or faith and burlere meant your faith. Piggot says a form of the tune was printed in 1661 in "An Antidote against Melancholy" which was set to words beginning "There was an old man of Waltham Cross". (from Contemplator's magnificent site.)

Incidentally, has anybody got those words - it might go down well at Waltham Abbey Folk Club some Monday?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM

According to Simpson (The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 1966, 449-455) the tune first appears in print, untitled, in Robert Carr's The Delightful Companion (2nd edn, 1686), at least a year before the events described in the song. I don't know if Piggot is accurate; offhand I can find no reference (apart from his) to There was an Old Man of Waltham Cross as appearing in An Antidote against Melancholy or anywhere else come to that, but that doesn't prove anything in itself.

A connection with the astrologer William Lilly really does seem unlikely, but I suppose anything is possible. Brendan Behan, as usual, should be taken with a generous pinch of salt, as should rumours of the tune being "banned"; such things are usually mythical.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: bubukaba
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:36 PM

Here is a link that may be helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliburlero


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 05:55 PM

Just to add more confusion... the Earl of Stamford Morris were invited to appear on Hollyoaks (British TV soap) a couple of years ago. The dance we chose was Lilliburlero, and I was the solo musician for the recording.

No objections were raised to our using the tune... I also believe the 'ban' to be an 'Urban Myth'!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 06:19 PM

Would "Virtual Myth" be more appropriate, given the way these kind of things spread via the Internet?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 06:22 PM

Yeth!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 06:02 AM

I don't like that one and I don't like that medley with Danny Boy, and men of harlech and Early one morning just athe sun was rising. They tend to wake me up.

The Uk has been here for a thousand years or so. Surely we have got past the point where we need to run the bloody flag up every morning to tell the world we are still here - we haven't disappeared over night.

Next thing we'll be standing with our hands on our hearts like the yanks when they play god save the queen.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:05 PM

The UK has not been around for a thousand years. As it exists at present, it's well under one hundred years old, and not too likely to continue in this form for all that much longer, I would hazard.

Lilliburlero is a first class tune, and has the merit of not being "patriotic".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: treewind
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM

It's also a great 16 bar jig to tack on the end of a 32 bar jig for a dance that needs 48 bars, especially if the last 16 are a distinctive part of the dance like "Waves of Tory"

Anahata
(BTDT)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:35 PM

yeh but its still a lot of unpleasant cacophony that time of day. Who the hell is dancing jigs and feeling patriotic at that time of morning.

How ever unstable the state of the union I do not feel all that tripe contributes a great deal.. .... and lilibulero does have unpleasant jibes about catholics in it - brother tague or whatever... we had to learn it at school...... as a non dancer of jigs i have tried to give it a wide berth ever since....despite the efforts of the bbc to feed it me in suppository form.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:51 PM

The BBC are notoriously touchy about things concerning Ireland: Even "Star Trek:The Next Generation" has come a cropper over it.
The season 3 episode "The High Ground" gave a one line mention to the eventual success of Irish freedom fighters against Britain, and was not shown when BBC2 first ran the series.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:37 PM

Does anybody have lyrics to 'there was an old man of Waltham cross' or any alternate verses to this tune. I have heard there is a much lighter set of verses but never actually heard them....


BTW, weelittledrummer
that medley with Danny Boy, and men of harlech and Early one morning just athe sun was rising. They tend to wake me up.
Is actually Sir Henry Woods "Fantasia on british sea songs", and is played at every last night of the Proms now. And I think is quite fun. If you're awake at 5.28 am, when it starts, then you either have be up sharpish to do something, or can't sleep, so might as well give up and do something useful.
Bunnahabhain


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:46 PM

So someone writes a bloody good tune -- Sometime later , someone else writes a set of words and uses the 'known' tune to turn his words into a song (or someone else does !) If another someone writes some
totally different words to fit the same tune , to which set of words does the tune belong ? The tune Lilliburlero is still used by the BBC World Service before all its news broadcasts .


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:01 PM

BBC World Service Home Page (Click on "Latest World News Bulletin").


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: mooman
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:48 AM

I like the Lilliburlero tune but do hate to wake up to the 05h28 "cacophony medley" on World Service!

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:59 AM

It is a bit of a cacophony Mooh, but I find it reassuring, and would miss it if it went. Try singing the Woad song to the men of Harlech bit it always works for me.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:02 AM

So why not tune your radio to some other channel for the wake up call, mooman?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST,Mooman at the backdoor
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:41 AM

'Cos, apart from the "cacophony", I like the World Service then Radio 4 Kevin!

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST,McGrtah of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:11 AM

You could perhaps set it to turn on at 5.30 instead and miss the music...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:28 AM

Maybe he's like me Kevin and has his radio on all the time, and only occasionally wakes up at the appropriate time. The only time mine got turned off was if I woke up in the middle of the late and much lamented John Peel's eclectic selection of 'music'
Giok


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 11:51 AM

I believe Francis James Child wrote some anti--Confederate / anti-Jeff Davis verses to the tune, "Ode to Richmond" or something like that.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: NH Dave
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 11:56 AM

Somehow this row over the tune to which Lillibulero is sung reminds me of a joke I heard many years ago.

Suzy stormed into her house in a fit of pique, "I'll never go out with Bill any more! All I heard for the entire evening was one filthy song after another."

"Why we've know Billy and his family for years," her mother replied, "Surely he wasn't so rude as to sing dirty songs to you on a date."

"Why no mom," Suzy replied, "He didn't sing them he whistled them!"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: mooman
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:04 PM

True Giok...I only occasionally wake up randomly (unlike Wolfgang who never wakes up...) (;>)

moo


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: silverfish
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:57 PM

With reference to 'weelittledrummer's' comments on God Save The Queen - or King, or whatever.

It's interesting that this tune of unknown origin has also at different times been used as a National Anthem for a few other countries - Switzerland, Russia, US, Sweden, Denmark and some of the old independant German States.

I guess that just like us Brits (and our genes) it's a bit of a mongrel!!!!

A memorable tune is a tune that will get itself adapted and will migrate and probably mutate all over the place.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:29 PM

That explains why the Irish fellow who wanted me to sing to his playing was so ticked off when I sang 'Nottingam ale'to this tune - only words I knew for it.

Long time ago now, but I did wonder why the BBC World Service introduced itself with a tune associated with the praise of beer.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:24 PM

Nottingham Ale - I see there's a thread about it dating from the last century - 1999 actually. Dick Greenhaus posted the words. Here's the thread - Nottingham Ale - I'm Looking for It

Thanks - it's good to have some singable words to that tune.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST,Jackeenjim
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:55 AM

The real origins of this song are as follows:
As sung: " Ba lero,lero, lillibulero,
            Lillibolero, bullen a la"

This is the phonetics of the Gaelic:

          "Ba leir e, ba leir e, an Lile ba leir e,
          An Lile ba leir e bua an la"

Translation :"It caused it, it caused it,"twas the Lily that cause it
             It was the Lily that caused the victory of the day"

Sounds more fluid in the original, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

I gave a talk some years ago on Song and history.
For what it's worth, this is what I turned up on Lillibulero,
Jim Carroll

Political songs are those which, rather than simply commenting on a prevailing situation, actually propose steps that would materially effect that situation by, for instance, calling for active support for a party, a leader, or a material course of action.
In the past these songs could have great influence on political life. In 1704t Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun, a Scots patriot who was an active opponent of the union of England and Scotland wrote to a friend;

"If a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation".

Napoleon was claimed to have echoed these sentiments, but I have been unable to find the reference.

Probably the most spectacular example of a ballad that influenced the course of history is to be found in the song Lillibulero, which represents two Irish Catholics gloating over *Tyrconnell's appointment as lord deputy (Jan. 1687). It begins 'Ho Brother Teague dost hear de decree' and ends 'Now, now de Hereticks all go down. . . By Christ and St Patrick the Nation's our own'. The refrain 'Li Burlero Bullen-a-la' was said to represent passwords used in the *rising of 164 but has also been taken to refer to the lily' symbol of the *orange party.   *Swift, in 1712, named the *whig leader Thomas Wharton as the author, quoting him as claiming to have whistled a king out of three kingdoms. The tune, attributed to Henry Purcell but if so adapted by him from a popular air, replaced an earlier one as the song gained popularity, and was subsequently used for 'The Protestant Boys' and other Orange ballads.

Bishop Burnet's History of His Own Time, 1724 - 1734 (ed. 1823, III, 319), gives a contemporary account of public response to the original song:
A foolish ballad was made at that time, treating the papists, and chiefly the Irish, in a very ridiculous manner, which had a burden, said to be Irish words, lero, lero, lilibulero, that made an impression on the army that cannot be well imagined by those who saw it not. The whole army, and at last all people both in city and country, were singing it perpetually. And perhaps never had so slight a thing so great an effect.
Burnet was echoing the preface of A Pill to Purge State-Melancholy, 1715, pp. vii -viii, which pointed to the practical value of political songs:
There remains but one thing more to be said in behalf of this Collection, which is that these sort of Songs have often been of the greatest use. An instance of this we had at the late Glorious Revolution, in Lilli-bo-lero; which so perfectly struck in with the Humour of the People, that we feel some of the happy Consequences of it to this very day. And as that Ballad was highly instrumental in singing out a Bad Monarch, so many of these have been as successful in singing out a Bad Minister.
Simpson he British Broadside and its Music

Swift quote
*Swift, in 1712, named the *whig leader Thomas Wharton as the author, quoting him as claiming to have whistled a king out of three kingdoms.
                                           Companion to Irish History

Lilliburlero
This is one of the most spirited and infectious tunes associated with the Street ballad. While some circumstances surrounding the original words and music are shrouded in mystery, there can be no doubt of the popularity and influence of the song in 1688. Moreover, the large number of songs and ballads set to the tune over the next half century testifies to the vitality of this eminently singable melody and its power of evoking mass response. Bishop Burnet's History of His Own Time, 1724—1734 (ed. 1823, III, 319), gives a contemporary account of public response to the original song:
A foolish ballad was made at that time, treating the papists, and chiefly the Irish, in a very ridiculous manner, which had a burden, said to be Irish words, lero, lero, lilibulero, that made an impression on the army, that cannot be well imagined by those who saw it not. The whole army, and at last all people both in city and country, were singing it perpetually. And perhaps never had so slight a thing so great an effect.
Burnet was echoing the preface of A Pill to Purge State-Melancholy, 1715, pp. vii—viii, which pointed to the practical value of political songs:
'there remains but one thing more to be said in behalf of this Collection, which is, that these sort of Songs have often been of the greatest use. An instance of this we had at the late Glorious Revolution, in Lilli-bo-lero; which so perfectly struck in with the Humour of the People, that we feel some of the happy Consequences of it to this very day. And as that Ballad was highly instrumental in singing out a Bad Monarch, so many of these have been as successful in singing out a Bad Minister.
We do not know when or by whom the tune was composed. It is first found in Robert Carr's The Delightful Companion, 2d ed., 1686, sig. C where it is untitled (Fig. 286). This instruction book for the recorder was engraved, and it is therefore likely that the tune would be found in the first edition, should a copy turn up.' An arrangement for virginals or harpsichord, entitled "A new Irish Tune" and subscribed "H. Purcell," is in The Second Part of Musick's Hand-maid, 1689, sig. E (reprinted in Purcell Society edition of Works, VI, 1895, 31), and it is on this evidence that the authorship of the tune has been popularly credited to him.
1 As Chappell noted, the second edition is "corrected" but is not said to be en larged; the tune appears near the middle of the book. Chappell's copy, now in the British Museum, is the unique survival of the work in any form. The page contains the MS addition " Step]" and, penciled in the margin, "Lilliburlero." 449
                                           Companion to Irish History

'Lilliburlero', satirical verses representing two Irish Catholics gloating over *Tyrconnell's appointment as lord deputy (Jan. 1687). It begins 'Ho Brother Teague dost hear de decree' and ends 'Now, now de Hereticks all go down. . . By Christ and St Patrick the Nation's our own'. The refrain 'Li Burlero Bullen-a-la' was said to represent passwords used in the *rising of 164 but has also been taken to refer to the lily' symbol of the *orange party.   *Swift, in 1712, named the *whig leader Thomas Wharton as the author, quoting him as claiming to have whistled a king out of three kingdoms. The tune, attributed to Henry Purcell but if so adapted by him from a popular air, replaced an earlier one as the song gained popularity, and was subsequently used for 'The Protestant Boys' and other Orange ballads.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:01 PM

Another use of this tune, pioneered by Uncle Toby in Tristram Shandy, is to whistle it when you do not wish to be bothered with arguing against some bit of nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM

what a shame we cant whistle it on mudcat,when someone says somethimg really stupid.
I shall use it in future,in a midi form for this purpose.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 09 - 08:33 PM

I'm not surprised about the usual bigotted attitude towards King James II.
Not surprised either about the ignorance and stupidity of the Orange sympathizers. You could have had 300 years of tolerance, but no, thanks to the misguided and dense Orange supporters, you didn't.

I love it when historical truth triumphs over bigotry and stupidity.
    Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted. When you make claims of bigotry and stupidity and don't have the courtesy to identify yourself by name, you sound threatening.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: NormanD
Date: 19 Apr 09 - 01:37 PM

I will not comment on the last posting, it is hardly worth wasting my time over.

Back to Lillibulero, there was a radio documentary on BBC several years ago discussing this very song - its origins, lyrics, historical (or even, for some people, hysterical) context, etc. Unfortunately, I can't remember enough of it to provide an answer to the initial question.

One fact I do remember - and it was illustrated by a recording - was that it was adopted as a marching tune by some military body, Gurkhas, or Malay (please excuse lack of precision). However, it was deemed too short, and to make the marching tune longer it was combined with "Heigh Ho", the Seven Dwarves work song from the Disney movie. Just try whistling it - Lillibulero followed by Heigh Ho - it works surprisingly well.

Norman


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST,Saffron
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

I've only just found this thread and it's 2014!
I used to love hearing Lillibulero on the World Service and I've been wanting it back for years.. I also really enjoyed the little medley which was fun and put an early morning smile on my face. Some things are just good for creating a sense of radio community , especially when you live alone. The voice saying: Wishing you a very good and peaceful night , sleep well, etc (many variations) is so comforting and feels so personal, please don't rob us of that! And the national anthem - well that just makes me laugh - hopefully Charles won't put up with that.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:19 AM

The nonsense cnorus is meant to make fun of Irish gaelic, so its an 18th political song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:06 AM

Except that, as you'll read above, it refers to events in the 17th century and first became popular then.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 09:35 AM

If Custer had been victorious in 1876, "Garryowen" would now be disdained in the US.

Only since they featured prominently in Ken Burns's documentary on "The Civil War" (almost a quarter century ago) have the great but "controversial" tunes "Dixie" and "Marching through Georgia" even begun to be considered once more on their own merits.

But some would say that "even begun" is an overstatement.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

"Marching through Georgia" has a whole different set of issues over here - google "hello hello billy boys".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: BobKnight
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM

Lilliebulero was a song we were given to sing in music lessons at school, circa early 60's. The only line I can remember is, "And we/I will cut de Englishman's throat," which might explain why it was "banned."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 05:32 PM

Wow, an old thread resurrected! Fascinating stuff! Unfortunately my copy of that record has, in the last 10 years, migrated to Tasmania, so I can't look up the story, but it was the liner notes that told me about the banning.

Wait, wouldn't Garryowen be beloved? Or is it like the Alamo songs, thread creep sorry?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 06:36 PM

Had Custer won, Garryowen would be considered nothing but a flagrant symbol of white conquest of Native Americans.

A few people think of it that way already.

Counterexample: "The Battle Hymn of the Republic."

It's even sung as a hymn in some churches, North and South.

Consider a line like, "May the Hero born of woman crush the serpent with His heel." That means the South. And "Let us die to make men free" is also pretty partisan. Few have a serious problem with the song, however, because it's based on the bible and written in poem-talk.

And nobody in the USA objects to "British Grenadiers," because they don't connect it with 1775 or 1812. Or anything else.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST,naina
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:35 PM

just read through the whole thread and noticed that someone early on said lillibulero had once been used as the national anthem in a whole lot of countries, sweden and russia included. that's absurd. i do realise that post was made ages ago, but it makes me mad when people don't bother to check their facts.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: meself
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM

"Had Custer won, Garryowen would be considered nothing but a flagrant symbol of white conquest of Native Americans."

I doubt that. I imagine it would be remembered merely as another old handed-down tune, the way it is now, for the most part. (Example: I learned the tune as a child; at some point in my adult life, I learned of the Custer connection. I'm certain that my mother, who had taught me the tune, knew nothing about the Custer connection.)

In fact, if Custer had won, I doubt he himself would be widely remembered. It was his dramatic end that immortalized him.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:09 PM

"I don't think you should play that tune when we're passing through Ardoyne..."

Too bloody right. Orange tune!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:12 AM

GUEST,naina - that comment was about the national anthem - "God Save the Queen" - not Lillibu(r)lero:

Quote from post by silverfish:

"With reference to 'weelittledrummer's' comments on God Save The Queen - or King, or whatever.

It's interesting that this tune of unknown origin has also at different times been used as a National Anthem for a few other countries - Switzerland, Russia, US, Sweden, Denmark and some of the old independant German States."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:14 AM

That post was me, sorry.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Lillibulero: Why banned, why BBC'd?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM

".....but it makes me mad when people don't bother to check their facts"

It makes me smile a bit when people don't "just read through the whole thread" quite carefully enough.


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