BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage

Subject: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:22 PM

It is a crying shame that in the USA, the richest and most technologically advances country in the world, we should face shortages of Flu vaccine that could save many lives. Why is it that we have a shortage of this vaccine, and on the other hand have a plentiful supply of drugs to treat Erectile Dysfunction. What good is having an erection if you are in bed with the flu and too sick to use it ?   
                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

You always need something to stir your lem sip though?

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Edwards is the cause
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM

Protection for vaccine makers
Product liability concerns continue to hinder vaccine development | By Lynne Lederman

Lawsuits are continuing to have a chilling effect on vaccine producers, both reducing the number of companies willing to get into the vaccine business and raising the costs of development, according to legal and industry representatives at the Vaccines meeting held October 22–24 in Arlington, Va. (cosponsored by The Scientist). On the gathering's first day, legislation to limit class-action lawsuits and large damage awards against corporations failed by a single vote in Congress, killing the bill (S 274) for this year and leaving meeting attendees predicting a negative effect on the vaccine industry.

"We don't believe lawyers should exist. They have ruined the vaccine industry and made it impossible to get insurance," said one angry attendee, Stan Yakatan, an industry consultant with Katan Associates in Hermosa Beach, Calif., and a former venture capitalist.

"Class actions are profitable primarily to lawyers," said Neal Halsey, director of the Institute of Vaccine Safety at Johns Hopkins University. "The frequent resolution of these cases by settlement provides the incentive for more lawsuits which do not depend upon scientific evidence," he said.

A number of conditions have been falsely attributed to vaccines, Halsey noted. The public fails to understand that when one event follows another, they are not necessarily causally related. For example, he said, the public has been reluctant to accept that the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine or thimerosal-containing vaccines do not cause autism, despite elegant studies demonstrating this, such as those conducted by Kreesten Madsen at the University of Aarhus in Denmark.

Certain state courts have certified class action suits that should not have been allowed and have admitted "junk science" in the guise of expert testimony, said Victor E. Schwartz, an attorney with Shook, Hardy & Bacon, in Washington, D.C. One tactic of plaintiffs' lawyers has been to vilify the potential defendants to the media in order to affect public opinion long before the trial takes place, Schwartz said. "This can be done with any medicine, no matter how benevolent."

The remedy, Schwartz suggested, lies in part with a compensation program like the one covering childhood vaccines that would cover all vaccines and all the ingredients, including preservatives, other than adulterants, as well as in public education.

Vaccine producers should be immunized from attack by trial lawyers, said James M. Wood, an attorney with Reed Smith Crosby Heafey in Oakland, Calif., who represents manufacturers of prescription medicines and medical devices. These product liability cases ignore the contributions of vaccines to public health and safety, he said.

And without appropriate product liability protection for vaccines for bioterrorism agents, there will be mass tort litigation, Wood warned. "It is a pipe dream that trial lawyers would accept a moratorium on lawsuits for bioterrorism vaccines," he said.

Although the National Childhood Vaccination Injury Act—which is funded by taxes on each dose of vaccine and provides relief to those suffering adverse events due to vaccination—is a good no-fault model, it is still possible for individuals to pull out of the act and to litigate, Wood noted.

Vaxgen of South San Francisco was able to purchase product liability insurance for the anthrax vaccine it';s developing, said Chief Executive Officer Lance Gordon. The cost is reimbursed by the government, which is funding anthrax vaccine development, as long as the company can prove that their costs are fair and reasonable said Gordon. Vaxgen did so by pointing out that their insurance cost per dose is what the government currently taxes for pediatric vaccines. But "the RFP Vaxgen responded to did not address the issue of insurance at all," Gordon noted, "and there is nothing reliable existing in current legislation regarding liability insurance."
Links for this article
Vaccines: from Political, Socio-economic, Scientific Provider, User, and Legal View Points Conference, Arlington, Va., October 22–24, 2003
http://gtcbio.com/ebrochure/vaccine%20brochure.pdf

K.M. Madsen et al.," A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism," New England Journal of Medicine, 347:1477-1482, November 7, 2002.
[PubMed Abstract]

K.M. Madsen et al., "Thimerosal and the occurrence of autism: negative ecological evidence from Danish population-based data," Pediatrics, 112:604-606, September 2003.
[PubMed Abstract]

J.D. Miller, "Vaccine deal turnaround," The Scientist, July 4, 2003.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20030704/06/

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 05:15 PM

we all know it is Bill clinton's fault!

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 05:48 PM

I just know that despite being in a high risk category, I've only ever had flu when I've had the vaccine. The years I don't have the vaccine, I've not had flu.

Whether it's coincidence or not, it's not really a good advert for taking the vaccine for me....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 06:41 PM

I took my kids in to their pediatrician on the Saturday before this news broke for a "flu clinic" and they got their shots. I planned to get mine during the following week at the university where I work but that plan soon evaporated. Looks like I'm in limbo this year. First year I haven't gotten the shot in about 15 years.

In years past the flu vaccine wasn't all used, some of it went to waste, depending on where it was being distributed. I'd be willing to bet that many of the people who are so desperate to get the shot this year haven't gotten them in the past. It's all to do with the perceived notion of scarcity.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Little Brother
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:23 PM

"What good is having an erection if you are in bed with the flu and too sick to use it ?"   

It would take more than the flu to put me out of business. - LB

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:59 PM

Yeah? Have you ever put this to the test? (I can't imagine anyone in her right mind wanting to test this theory with you if you have the flu--but perhaps you're merely thinking of your old pal Rosy Palm?) Even then, I can't imagine it. I had the Asian flu when I was a kid and use that as the yardstick by which I measure "The Flu."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:27 PM

I wonder what we are doing to our immune systems though, those of us who are basically healthy....shouldn't we make them work out now and then? It scares me to think of children not being able to not have flu now and then...although the logistics with working parents etc. would be factor....what if big bugs come our way? Won't we be collectively weaker? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:07 PM

Edward is not the cause of the vaccine shortage - it is the FDA that is the problem.

We have the same drug regulations in Canada as in the U.S. and should be able to sell our extra million doses to the U.S. but its hung up in the FDA.

Bush said he was workin' on it with Canada in the last debate. Maybe he should be workin on the FDA. Even if he starts workin' on it today it will take three weeks to ready the shipment for delivery. Lets face it, if Bush cared about health care in the U.S., this shortage would not have occurred.

By the way - for all of you who think socialized medicine is a 'bad deal'...

To get my flu shot, all I have to do is sign up. If 10 or more people in my workplace want it, a public health nurse will set a date and come out to the workplace and give us our injections. It soesn't cost a cent. Pretty shoddy, eh. Meantime, back in the U.S.A.....

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:14 PM

You all go ahead and get the shot. I won't. Allergic to eggs which is what the vaccine is incubated in. I'd rather have the flu (I did last year). Somebody else can have my shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:15 PM

no waiting list dianavan?

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:51 PM

Sounds like someone is blackmailing US citizens to get us to agree to Bush's idea of acceptible tort reform. "Give us what we want, or we'll make sure you get the flu".

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 12:42 AM

Mary Garvey had an interesting idea about our immune systems but in this case she was incorrect. "The Flu" that comes along each winter is always a fresh mutation. The virus is endemic in water fowl. Each year when they migrate to central Asia, the various strains meet and mix to produce a new variety. Most years it's minor. Some years, not. The point is, that a new vaccine is necessary each time. But most of us don't really need the shot unless we're in a high risk group and it's a bad variant.

Note. A few years ago it was discovered that the great Influenze pandemic of 1916 (?) was an early variety of swine flu. 40 million dead, more or less, in about 18 months. They still don't know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:22 AM

Sorcha - I can no longer have flu vaccine for the same reason. I didn't know I was allergic to eggs until I rcvd. a vaccine that had been grown in an egg medium ( a live vaccine). Once the vaccine had left my body (almost a year), I was no longer allergic to eggs. It has been suggested that I be immunized with the synthetic vaccine, which is not grown in an egg medium - I think I'll pass. The allergic reaction was unpleasant and plagued me for a year. I had to adhere to a very strict diet to get my body back to normal.

Jack the Sailor - Yes, there are waiting lists: especially for elective, or non emergency surgery. I'm not saying that it is a perfect system (we have been experiencing severe cut-backs) but if the level of funding were to be restored, we would probably have a decent system. Funny how they cut-back and then say the system is dysfunctional.

When I needed knee surgery, my care was excellent. I had to go to emergency on a long week-end (everyone's worst nightmare). The doctors got right on it! I was in surgery Tuesday morning and my physio was excellent - the same as any athlete. My crutches cost some $$$, the physio was 20.00 a session and the drugs also cost a bit. All of the above was re-imbursed by my extended medical plan. Everything else was free (premiums are paid by my employer). Cost to me - 0.

Basically, the propaganda about our health care is about creating a two-tier system where the poor get one level of service and the rich get another. At present we all use the same system of delivery. Its time to increase the funding.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:34 AM

In most other countries, you pay the defendants costs when you loose a law suit. Plus when you loose they can sue for damages.

This eliminates frivolous suits where they get you to settle to get them off your back.

Why don't we have this in America?

How is tort reform ever going to happen when almost all of the law makers are lawyers? Maybe Americans can band together and not vote for any lawyers. After 10 or 20 years Congress would be lawyer free enough to pass tort reform.

Call it the Citizens Tort Reform Coalition.

Frivolous lawsuits are another reason American companies are going offshore.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: mg
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:40 AM

For starters, you would eliminate frivolous law suits, but you would also eliminate some, many, very legitimate law suits. I don't know what the answer is, and I am certainly for reform, but that would put such a chill on the process that it would reek of injustice for the less financially able. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:41 AM

OG,

You keep missing the point. If something bad happens, it MUST be because of Bush. If something good happens, it is those fearles liberals standing up to Bush.

You had best get this straight before the election, of you may end up getting "re-educated" when the side of good and light defeats the side of evil. Wrong-thinking is punishable...

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:00 AM

Technology Review Flu Vaccine Production: a "step through" of a brief article on what's required to make flu vaccine.

If you want, you can download a .pdf that really gives you a better picture of how things fit together, but the .pdf is 2.2 MB (it's 2 pages, but MIT uses great graphics) so it took quite a while on my connection.

The gist of it is, if you want to make a flu vaccine:

1. You buy 90 million (9*10^7) fertilized chicken eggs 6 months in advance for each strain of influenza that may need a vaccine. Usually that's been 3 strains in recent years, but you might be asked to do four.

2. You wait for the World Health Organization to guess what strain(s) of influenza will be popular this year.

3. You use samples provided by WHO of the 3 (or sometimes 4) strains that they're "betting on" to infect your eggs with both the influenza strain and a "harmless" carrier virus (remember 90,000,000 eggs per strain).

4. You incubate the eggs long enough for the viral payload to multiply.

5. You extract the viral material from all of the eggs - or course keeping the material from each egg separate, because the next step is to:

6. Sort through all the viral material obtained and find the samples that contain both the correct influenza viral signature and the right carrier viral material. (Enormous crap shoot here - with extremely variable yields)

7. Chemically inactivate all the "good samples" and package it up for distribution.

8. Chemically inactivate all the "not good samples" and put them in a hole somewhere.

8. Wait for the lawsuits to start.

If, as happened this year, you run into a glitch anywhere in the process, you chemically inactivate all the viral material from all of the eggs, and then you dig a very large hole and put 90 million (or 3 or 4 times 90 million) eggs in it and cover it up. Since it takes several months to get through the whole process, there is no way to recover within any single flu season.

Anybody want to go into this business?

The article linked describes an alternate method for replicating the sample viruses that WHO provides, that would eliminate the "crap shoot" over which are the good eggs and which are the useless ones; but it's at least 5 years from being proved safe, and being accepted by the international regulatory agencies, and thus far has been "demonstrated" only for small quantity production.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:43 PM

Here's an article from "Medical News Today" which throws some light into what went wrong in the USA, compared to the UK, which used the same supplier which went toes up - Why did Chiron Flu Crisis Affect USA more than England?

"Last August UK officials, with the same information the US officials had, decided something had to be done in case the Chiron supplies, 14% of UK supplies, went belly up. The US officials decided to believe Chiron and gamble 48% of their supplies on an assurance that everything would turn out fine despite some worrying set backs.

"When October 5th arrived, the British authorities pulled the plug on the Chiron, Liverpool, supplies. US authorities were caught out - nothing had been done in advance, the country had allowed itself to get into this situation."

................................

A lot of the time when we talk about having flu, it's not flu at all, but a bad cold or something else. I had a dose of real flu at Christmas a few years ago, and it was exceedingly unpleasant, especially since it went through the rest of the family.

Ever since I've been sure to get my flu dose as soon as they start giving them out, and I haven't been brought down again.

I wrote a song about it, and I posted it on the Mudcat later - The Millennium Flu

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: nutty
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 02:57 PM

I'm like Sorcha ...can't have the injection because of an egg allergy.
Only found out after the doctor gave me a jab for the first time.
I was so ill I thought I was going to die.

I was extra careful when I was called for a Pneumonia jab .... had the nurse read all the instructions.
She thought that it would be OK because the only contra-indication was to mercury.
I caused a real stir at the surgery when I told them I was allergic to mercury as well. (I had something called Pinks Disease as a child)

So I'm just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping the germs pass me by.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: darkriver
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:20 PM

Dianavan,

the plug was pulled by the UK regulatory agency.
FDA was working with Chiron on some suspect batches of the vaccine. The UK announcement took even the FDA by surprise.

My wife is a microbiologist, and tells me that the bacteria found in some of the UNFINISHED lots is a common environmental organism. During the course of finishing a lot (that is, a specific batch) of drugs, the lot is sterilized. However, nobody's giving details, so I don't really understand what is going on.

As for politics--yes, this stuff was known back in August of this year, and nothing was done about it. After all, it's a Bad Thing when government tries to tell business what to do. Plus the Bush Administration and the Republican party were busy getting ready for the convention....

doug

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:48 PM

Sounds to me as if the US tends to put all its eggs in one basket.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:50 PM

mack, I think you're referring to the 1918 epidemic. As you know, I'm interested in epidemiology - but realize I'm way over my head in striving to understand it, much less talk about it. I talked to the CDC about an MS cluster last summer, but they don't have the money to study it.

The book that the movie "Awakenings" was based on can be found at Amazon, here. The following quote is in the review:

The sleeping-sickness epidemic of 1918 caused hundreds of survivors to slip into a bizarre rigid paralysis with similarities to advanced Parkinson's disease.

I found another interesting quote here

Public health authorities have been planning for how to respond to the next influenza pandemic. Given the association of encephalitis lethargica with the 1918 pandemic (and despite the lack of confirmatory evidence), it would be prudent to consider the possibility of a global outbreak of encephalitis lethargica about 12 months following the flu pandemic.

PS: A friend's great-grandfather died in the 1918 flu epidemic.
PPS: I got my flu shot yesterday. I stood in line 30 minutes with another lady who has MS. The current thinking now is for people with MS to get the shot. (MS is a disease of the immune systme, not fully understood.)

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:17 AM

Even granting that it was known in August that there were "possible problems" with one supplier's lot, the most aggressive action possible could not have replaced the suspect material.

Assuming that there might have been another supplier capable of producing a replacement for 50% of the US need (there wasn't) -

That supplier would need 45 million fertilized eggs for each of the three viral strains selected for this year. It would take at least a few months to find enough busy chickens to replace the raw stock. There are not enough happy roosters around to do it in less than two or three months. It normally takes at least 6 months to stock the existing makers, and current year production had already been stocked by other makers.

Assuming that the eggs could be found, from initial innoculation of the eggs, through sorting out the ones that developed usable sera, separating, inactivating, and sterilizing the final serum is a multi-month process.

If the FDA had cancelled the contract with Chiron in order to give it to someone else, there still remained the possibility that Chiron would be able to clean up some or all of their supply, based on the evidence in August. Can you spell MASSIVE LAWSUIT?

There was no real reason to cancel the contract in August, since there is no other producer capable of replacing the supply. If Chiron believed then that they could still get some serum out, it probably seemed that the "lesser of evils" was to let them try.

There was no real reason to announce the problem, while there remained a possibility that Chiron could still deliver at least some of their product, since an early announcement of a "possible shortage" would likely have produced an earlier "run" on the existing supply, with even worse scalping and profiteering than has already occured. (One supplier jumped his price from $1 per shot to $60 per shot as it was, according to unconfirmed - but likely reliable - reports.)

In August, there was NO viable way to replace the suspect serum. There was, according to Chiron, a possibility that they could still deliver good serum for at least part of the contract. "Wait and See" seems like at least one of the responsible actions that one might choose in such a situation.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:37 AM

Mary in Kentucky -

If you are really really interested in epidemiology, an interesting(???) book might be Armies of Pestilence: The Impact of Disease on History by R. S. Bray, Barnes and Noble Books, ©1996 by Bray, ISBN 0-7607-1915-2 (paperback). It carries a cover price of $9.95, but I believe I picked it up off a Barnes sale table for about $3.50 a while back.

Bray takes the view that most of the great armies had little to do with the "campaigns of empire." The actual battles were mostly decided by the bugs. He gives a very lengthy (and somewhat repetitive) enumeration of the "great plagues" in history, with some comment on how they affected events. About 211 pages of text, 2 chapters on Influenze, 10 or so pages of "Chapter Notes" and a 15 page bibliography.

The discussion of "current problems" is rather brief (but only compared to the rest of the book). It does present a rather complete picture of "who's the enemies" now - amongst the vermin.

For a "cheap" but reasonably scholarly book it's not a bad resource.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:47 AM

That sounds interesting; I'll look for the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:58 PM

Mary in Kentucky -

I guess the traditional "blessing" when recommending a book is "You won't be bored with it," but in this case you probably will be - but there is quite a lot of good stuff there. It sort of depends on your interest level. I found I couldn't digest more than a chapter, sometimes just part of one, at a sitting; but I did keep finding enought to go back until I finished.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:15 PM

Today, I read in my local newspaper (Rockland Journal News) that our 2 senators (Chuck Schumer & Hillary Clinton) as well as my local congressman (Elliot Engel (D)) all got their flu shots from the Doctor on Capitol Hill, while we poor senior citizens have to do without. This really gets me angry. Should I take out my frustrations on these 3 Democrats by voting for Bush this time around ?   SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:37 PM

dianavan, Jack the Sailor (my dear hubby) is a Canadian from Newfoundland. I think that's why he put the smiley at the end of his post. Considering how much we're paying for insurance right now, and how high our co-pays are, I don't think either of us would be complaining if the system here in the US was more like the system in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:46 PM

Bloody silly in the first place to rely on one supplier to supply almost half the stuff they knew they were going to need. Someone is responsible for deciding it should be done that way.

A lot of Americans are going to suffer because of this, and probably (pretty well certainly, in fact) some are going to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:56 PM

It's true, McGrath. I heard someone making a joke about there not being any Viagra shortages. I wasn't joking when I said what I did about people using the flu vaccine as a way to blackmail US voters into compliance on tort reform issues. I think that is precisely why we are having our second flu vaccine shortage in as many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:33 PM

The UK has always been looking for an opportunity to "pay-back" the sins of the colonists for starting the UK revoluntion - and the subsequent demise of their empire.

Bad sirum...and multiple deaths in the old colonie...will look sweet on the tabloid head-liners.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 01:17 AM

Interesting theory Guest, however, Chiron is a California based corporation.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:58 PM

I wish I knew the name of the company (its on Vancouver Island) that produces the flu vaccine. They have a million doses available but its not getting through thanks to the FDA.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 09:44 PM

'I had the Asian flu when I was a kid and use that as the yardstick by which I measure "The Flu."'

Had that in the late 1960s--Hoooooly. Sickest I have ever been. Next to that, there has never been a flu since (IMO). That was about two weeks of serious puke, sweat, ache, puke s'more, and wish for the "end" to come. After a few days, the "end" in any form would have been welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:37 AM

Ah, you want to try gastric flu.... all the joys you have mentioned above, plus the beauty of a 'runny bum'. I spent 3 days wrapped in a duvet, on the toilet, cuddling a bucket. I swear I lost nearly 2 stones in as many days. It took nearly 3 weeks to recover properly, and another 8 to put back the lost weight! And those were the days when I could wear a size 12 dress (not that I ever did....)

The last time I had ordinary flu was the time that Limpit decided to bite the end off a thermometer... in Casualty the nurse started checking ME over!

And yes, that was the year I got the flu vaccine.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:25 AM

I see Bush has been making great play of the fact that they have not had the flu vaccine. Looking at Liz's list of symptoms... Well, you don't want it be nasty, but it couldn't happen to a nicer guy, as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:12 AM

"John Kerry talks about increasing the supply of flu vaccines, but he was an obstacle to flu vaccine production as recently as last year when he opposed the Health Act to encourage vaccine production," Bush spokesman Steve Schmidt said. "His incredible hypocrisy just demonstrates again his willingness to say whatever will benefit him politically, no matter how out of touch his rhetoric is with the facts."

Stephanie Cutter, Kerry's communications director, said the senator's opposition to the bill was based on the bill's liability protection for vaccine makers"

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/109800574985410.xml

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:20 AM

RabbiSol, senior citizess are in the groups that are in line to get a flu shot. What they are saying is that if you are not in a high risk group - whether by age, occupation, health - don't get it.

You can have mine. I'm a senior but I have never gotten a flu shot. Never had the flu in years either.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:46 AM

According to this site (American Medical Directors Association), the "Health Act" bill hasn't even come up for debate in the Senate yet. If that's true, then we can chalk up another manipulative lie from the Bush people:

"The House of Representatives has passed broad liability reform legislation as Senate Republican staffers, led by Senator Bill Frist's Office (R-TN), met with representatives from the Health Coalition on Liability and Access (HCLA) to obtain input on future strategy. The Help Efficient, Accessible, Low-cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act of 2004 (H.R. 4280) ensures victims are fully compensated for any and all injuries suffered, but it curbs runaway lawsuits by capping the amount of damages under "pain and suffering" and "punitive damages." The bill, which was later incorporated into H.R. 4279, also seeks to address a growing concern that frivolous lawsuits and excessive courtroom costs have put emergency room doctors and other health care specialists such as OB/GYNs on the list of endangered health care professionals. "Patients need to be treated by doctors in hospital rooms, not by trial lawyers in courtrooms," Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert (R-IL) said. "This legislation will help keep doctors on the job because critical care is in critical condition."

Chances of passage of any medical liability bill in the Senate in 2004 are unlikely. According to Senate staff who met with the HCLA--a group of more than 50 organizations representing health care providers,employers, insurers, and health care consumer seeking common sense federal medical liability reforms--it will be difficult to schedule time for debate since many important bills, such as budget bills, remain for action, and Congressional calendar days are limited in light of the fall election. The real hope is for passage of legislation in 2005."

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:37 AM

I saw on the news over here( Scotland) college students complaining that they wouldn't get the vaccine because of the shortage. Can someone please explain to me why they would be getting it in the first place? I mean, surely all the flu's going to do to a healthy young adult is put them in bed for a couple of weeks? I've had the flu (verified by a doctor) and it certainly isn't pleasant,but for some it could be life-threatening. Shouldn't the vaccine that is there be going to the people who actually need it? I just think there are some upside down priorities here...

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 02:05 AM

"he opposed legislation in 2003 shielding vaccine-makers from some lawsuits as a way to entice more companies into the market. "Once again, John Kerry proves he has no solutions to offer, only attacks"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38692-2004Oct16.html

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:11 AM

It should be pointed out that it was a Bush spokesman who is being quoted in GUEST,Apollo's 30 Oct 04 - 02:05 AM post. Here's the full quote:

Steve Schmidt, a Bush spokesman, said Kerry is partly to blame because he opposed legislation in 2003 shielding vaccine-makers from some lawsuits as a way to entice more companies into the market. "Once again, John Kerry proves he has no solutions to offer, only attacks," Schmidt said.

GUEST,Apollo, which legislation, specifically, did Kerry oppose? If you don't provide the specifics and a link to your source, I'll take that to mean that you can't because it didn't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:13 AM

"Kerry Opposed HEALTH Act Of 2003, Which Would Encourage Vaccine Production. The HEALTH Act of 2003, which President Bush supports, contains a provision immunizing vaccine manufacturers from punitive damages for products that are approved as safe by the FDA. Because profit margins on vaccines are low, such a provision is critical to encouraging the development and manufacture of vaccines. (H.R. 5, The HEALTH Act Of 2003, Section 7; "But incentive-stifling price controls, liability fears, and greener pastures elsewhere finally prompted a massive flight of big drug companies out of vaccines. The figures tell the story: In 1967 there were 26. By 1996, that number had shrunk to eight. Today, only four big players survive.
Biotech's Babies," Business Week,1/14/04

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:14 PM

I can't get your link to work, GUEST, but I notice it is a link to or about "H.R. 5". H.R. stands for "House Resolution". The House is where the Representatives do their work. John Kerry is a Senator, not a member of the House of Representatives. In what way, exactly, did he help to obstruct the passage of this bill? Has this bill been voted on in the Senate yet? If not, in what other way is it possible for him to have obstructed the passage of the bill?

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 05:49 PM

Carol -

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 108th 2d Session will show that bills originating in the House are frequently discussed and voted in the Senate using the H.R. identification. It is entirely possible that an "H.R." bill was voted in the Senate. The "H.R." or
"S Res" merely shows where the bill originated.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:21 PM

Thanks John. I realize that, but I think this bill has just been voted on in the House. The article in the link I produced in a previous post to this thread says that it has not been voted on yet in the Senate. But thanks for that link.

According to John's roll call page, and this page: U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 108th Congress - 1st Session (2003), the Senate did not vote on H.R. Resolution 5 in either 2003 or 2004.

So again, in what way did Kerry obstruct this legislation?

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:22 PM

Try this:

The HEALTH Act Of 2003

Status: The bill passed the House on March 13.
Apollo

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:40 PM

Flu can be life threatening at any age. Depends on other factors - and of course on the type of flu. No one's too sure about the Great Flu Epidemic at the end of the Great War - but it killed more people than the war did.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:33 PM

Your link, GUEST,Apollo, also indicates that the Senate has not yet voted on H.R. 5.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:44 AM

"Kerry Opposed HEALTH Act Of 2003" Not voted against but opposed.

It is past the House but not past the Senate. No tort reform will pass with Kerry/Edwards in charge. Edwards is a medical liability lawyer that such a bill would hurt.

Hence all their claims about lowering health care costs are empty promises.

Believe it if you want.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM

How do you know he opposed it if he hasn't voted on it yet? Blowing smoke up our asses to try to get more votes for your man, Bush, eh, Apollo?

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:29 PM

In recent negotiations for influenza vaccine between a Canadian health official and an American representative, it was clear that there was an intended paradox between the American government's sudden reliance on Canada for influenza vaccine despite the fact that the Bush administration wants to discourage Americans from buying prescription drugs from Canadian pharmacies.

Not seeing the irony in the request, the American continued to press for the vaccine and then demanded to know why the United States would be charged for the vaccine when Canadians get theirs "for free."

The Canadian official replied, "Well, it's not free. Our government pays for it."

"Well then," the American asked, "How much will it cost us?"

The Canadian replied, "Well, we don't know...we'll let you know."

In frustration, the American demanded, "Well, it's urgent, so just send an invoice with the shipment. Now we need to settle on how the vaccine will be delivered?"

After careful consideration, the Canadian official replied, "How about by cow? Twenty vials of vaccine will be tied around the neck of every Canadian beef cow that passes over the border. Of course if you want a quicker delivery, we have several softwood lumber trucks available..."

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

Cluin - Perfect!

I heard another interesting commentary on Canadian/U.S. trade negotiations, in general.

Canadians may WANT U.S. exports but the U.S. NEEDS Canadian exports.

As the carbon-based economy changes to a hydrogen-based economy, Canada will emerge as a very strong nation.

Now all we have to do is keep an eye on Martin. I hope he puts the interest of Canadians ahead of himself in all negotiations with the U.S. He's a smart businessman. Lets hope he is truly on our side.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:23 PM

Such language for a Lady!

First you claimed that there was no such bill. I showed you the bill existed. Now you question that Kerry opposed it. Things are opposed and die in commitee, so they never get voted on. Maybe a video of the anti tort reform Kerry saying "I oppose this bill" would convince you. I don't have one.

Tell me this: Would Kerry support any bill that would allow tort reform?

HR 5 the Help Efficient, Accessible, Low Cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act of 2003 passed the House on March 13. Tort reform legislation. The cap on non-economic damages remains at $250,000. Punitive awards are set at the greater of $250,000 or twice the economic damages, and the bill allows defendants to introduce evidence of plaintiff�s receiving compensation for losses from outside sources. The legislation allows states to set their own cap on non-economic damages, regardless of whether they exceed or fall below $250,000. Federal provisions pre-empt certain state laws unless the protections exceed those in HR 5. The legislation retains the Sense of the Congress provision that insurers be made liable for damages when they disallow care that is medically necessary and appropriate. The Senate companion measure is S. 607.

S.607
Title: A bill to improve patient access to health care services and provide improved medical care by reducing the excessive burden the liability system places on the health care delivery system.
Sponsor: Sen Ensign, John E. [NV] (introduced 3/12/2003)      Cosponsors (7)
Related Bills: H.R.5, H.R.4280
Latest Major Action: 3/13/2003 Read the second time. Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 33. STATUS: (color indicates Senate actions)

3/12/2003:
    Introduced in the Senate. Read the first time. Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under Read the First Time.
3/13/2003:
    Read the second time. Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 33.

That's all I can find.

If you believe Kerry did not oppose it that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. I just thought I would make people aware of it so they could form an independant opinion.

Apollo

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:00 AM

I didn't tell you it didn't exist. I posted a link to an article by a body of people who support the very legislation that you are pushing here, and showed you that even they say it hasn't been voted on in the Senate yet.

Personally, I have no idea what Kerry and Edwards would do with that piece of legislation. But I also don't like Bush using flu shots as a way to blackmail people into supporting legislation that they don't want.

And I won't decide whether or not I would support that legislation until I know a lot more about it than I do now.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:15 AM

Anyway, if, as you're suggesting, the flu vaccine shortage is caused by problems created by bad tort law, why is the flu vaccine the only vaccine that we are having a shortage of?

The answer, of course, is that it's not because of bad tort law that we are experiencing a flu vaccine shortage. The pharmaceutical lobbyists know that the flu vaccine is the only vaccine they can use in this way... to blackmail the American people into signing away all of their rights. They can't use the measles vaccine, or any of the other vaccines they give to kids because then nobody would be able to send their kids to school.

The flu vaccine is the perfect vaccine with which to blackmail the American people. A few people will die, but not so many that a national tragedy will be created, and I notice they were careful to make sure that there would be enough supply for most of the people who are at high risk, so they won't have quite as many deaths on their conscience (if they have one) as they might otherwise have.

It might be a very effective tactic if it weren't for the fact that we can see right through it. Nice try but no cigar.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:14 AM

Note that I was not trying anything except to make a statement on the subject and voice my opinion. However that is treated like an attempt to do something evil when speaking to conspiracy crowd.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:25 AM

It's pretty obvious that you have an agenda, GUEST,Apollo. You've been spamming this forum with some last minute propagandizing for your candidate on this thread and others. Your entire posting history (under the name Apollo), which only goes back a few days, is composed entirely of propagandistic bullshit for GW Bush.

Maybe you have been around here longer than your posting history suggests... maybe not. But I take GUEST posts like yours as they come. So as far as I'm concerned, you are Apollo and you only have the posting history that I can see when I click on your name. And that posting history shows a blatant agenda.

If you spread propaganda, and if I can poke holes in your propaganda and show it to be what it is (bullshit) at a time when it might actually matter, you can bet I'm going to do it. However, with the campaign essentially over for the time being, I'll go back to not really giving a shit what you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:35 AM

What ever you do, do not consider anything but your conspiracy dogma. And never be polite to anybody. It is a sign of weakness.

Apollo

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:42 AM

You name yorself after the program, Greek god, rocket, what? By the way, I agree with Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:58 AM

Agree with what? Do you say the information I presented is incorrect?

What part of it is incorrect? Do you believe there is a conspiracy behind the shortage?

Do you believe that manufacturers in other countries do not have the same liability exposure as manufacturers in the US?

Do you agree that this might possibly be one reason for US manufacturers to move offshore?

Notice I am trying to be polite and ask questions instead of calling people names.

I think the need for election propaganda has past.

Apollo

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: mg
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:01 AM

Are other vaccines made out of the egg base and are they are perishable? I don't know... what are the various shelf lives of vaccines...?

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:17 AM

You didn't answer my question to you, Apollo.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:51 AM

mary - I don't know for sure, but I would imagine there is a shelf life for live vaccine. Live vaccine is grown in an egg medium.
Most vaccine is now synthetic. At least I think so.

Google it.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:53 AM

Apollo talks like an alien.

He's coming to get you, brucie.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:28 AM

You name yorself after the program, Greek god, rocket, what?

I don't know how to answer that. It is just a name. Is it OK?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:03 PM

Folks here evidently don't know much about vaccines but they are experts on the vaccine conspiracy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:47 PM

Personally, when it comes to my rights, I like to know as much as possible about any laws that might take them away before I agree to support them. I need to know a lot more about the legislation you are promoting, Apollo, before I can form an opinion on it or to decide whether or not a Senator's support or lack of support for it would effect my decision to vote or not vote for him or her.

I have seen plenty of sources that say bad tort law is not in any way responsible for the flu vaccine shortage. You have produced sources that say it is responsible. I would need to spend a lot more time than I have right now, reading up on all of the opinions, what they are based on, and what the source of the opinions is and whether or not they have a secondary agenda. (Which, contrary to what you may think, all lobbyists do indeed have. It's their JOB.)

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:57 PM

Also, the other thing you do not seem to have considered is whether or not tort law reforms are the only reasonable remedy for the problem. Even if tort laws are inhibiting the production of the vaccines, there may be other solutions, besides taking away a person's right to recieve damages for legitimate cases of negligence or careless indifference that result in a drastically reduced quality of life for the person effected. But you can bet pharmaceutical lobbyists are not going to be talking about alternatives. Because that is not their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:01 AM

I am not promoting any legislation. I am making people aware that John Kerry is opposing a bill that is designed to make vaccines more plentiful in the US.

I am not affected anyway. I refuse to get flu shots because the last one I got gave me the flu. I would rather take my chances.

Find out what the liability issues in other countrys are. Do they have shortages elsewhere? Lawyers are out of control in the US. For every $3 they collect in damages from a company, $2+- goes to them.

I just don't see a conspiracy behind everything, just reasons.

That's my opinion. Not an evil attempt to fool someone.

Apollo

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:06 PM

The word "conspiracy", as you use it, Apollo, is an easy word to throw around if you want to control the behavior of other people. It's used quite regularly to keep people from asking questions and finding the real reasons behind things that happen. It's a substitute for intelligent discussion, and thoughtful and reasoned debate. And it is used for one reason only... to shut people up and/or discredit them or their argument. It is a form of "argumentum ad hominem". People who have a real and valid argument don't need to use ad hominem attacks on people to make their points.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,apollo
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM

CC:

Do you think there is a conspiracy or not?

And again I am expressing my opinion of why a shortage exists, not an evil attempt to push any legislation or fool anybody.

I have nothing to loose or profit from here. no dog in this fight.
Kerry vs Bush is over.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:36 PM

Define "conspiracy", Apollo. It's certainly not a word that I find myself using very often.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: GUEST,Apollo
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:16 PM

Conspiracy:

a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM

Ok. Then no, I wouldn't call it a conspiracy. I wouldn't use the word "plot". Plan, agenda, intention... all of these words work for me. So I guess what I would call it is "business as usual".