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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM Ok. Then no, I wouldn't call it a conspiracy. I wouldn't use the word "plot". Plan, agenda, intention... all of these words work for me. So I guess what I would call it is "business as usual". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:16 PM Conspiracy: a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:36 PM Define "conspiracy", Apollo. It's certainly not a word that I find myself using very often. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,apollo Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM CC: Do you think there is a conspiracy or not? And again I am expressing my opinion of why a shortage exists, not an evil attempt to push any legislation or fool anybody. I have nothing to loose or profit from here. no dog in this fight. Kerry vs Bush is over. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:06 PM The word "conspiracy", as you use it, Apollo, is an easy word to throw around if you want to control the behavior of other people. It's used quite regularly to keep people from asking questions and finding the real reasons behind things that happen. It's a substitute for intelligent discussion, and thoughtful and reasoned debate. And it is used for one reason only... to shut people up and/or discredit them or their argument. It is a form of "argumentum ad hominem". People who have a real and valid argument don't need to use ad hominem attacks on people to make their points. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:01 AM I am not promoting any legislation. I am making people aware that John Kerry is opposing a bill that is designed to make vaccines more plentiful in the US. I am not affected anyway. I refuse to get flu shots because the last one I got gave me the flu. I would rather take my chances. Find out what the liability issues in other countrys are. Do they have shortages elsewhere? Lawyers are out of control in the US. For every $3 they collect in damages from a company, $2+- goes to them. I just don't see a conspiracy behind everything, just reasons. That's my opinion. Not an evil attempt to fool someone. Apollo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:57 PM Also, the other thing you do not seem to have considered is whether or not tort law reforms are the only reasonable remedy for the problem. Even if tort laws are inhibiting the production of the vaccines, there may be other solutions, besides taking away a person's right to recieve damages for legitimate cases of negligence or careless indifference that result in a drastically reduced quality of life for the person effected. But you can bet pharmaceutical lobbyists are not going to be talking about alternatives. Because that is not their job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:47 PM Personally, when it comes to my rights, I like to know as much as possible about any laws that might take them away before I agree to support them. I need to know a lot more about the legislation you are promoting, Apollo, before I can form an opinion on it or to decide whether or not a Senator's support or lack of support for it would effect my decision to vote or not vote for him or her. I have seen plenty of sources that say bad tort law is not in any way responsible for the flu vaccine shortage. You have produced sources that say it is responsible. I would need to spend a lot more time than I have right now, reading up on all of the opinions, what they are based on, and what the source of the opinions is and whether or not they have a secondary agenda. (Which, contrary to what you may think, all lobbyists do indeed have. It's their JOB.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:03 PM Folks here evidently don't know much about vaccines but they are experts on the vaccine conspiracy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:28 AM You name yorself after the program, Greek god, rocket, what? I don't know how to answer that. It is just a name. Is it OK? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: dianavan Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:53 AM Apollo talks like an alien. He's coming to get you, brucie. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: dianavan Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:51 AM mary - I don't know for sure, but I would imagine there is a shelf life for live vaccine. Live vaccine is grown in an egg medium. Most vaccine is now synthetic. At least I think so. Google it. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Peace Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:17 AM You didn't answer my question to you, Apollo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: mg Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:01 AM Are other vaccines made out of the egg base and are they are perishable? I don't know... what are the various shelf lives of vaccines...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:58 AM Agree with what? Do you say the information I presented is incorrect? What part of it is incorrect? Do you believe there is a conspiracy behind the shortage? Do you believe that manufacturers in other countries do not have the same liability exposure as manufacturers in the US? Do you agree that this might possibly be one reason for US manufacturers to move offshore? Notice I am trying to be polite and ask questions instead of calling people names. I think the need for election propaganda has past. Apollo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Peace Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:42 AM You name yorself after the program, Greek god, rocket, what? By the way, I agree with Carol. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:35 AM What ever you do, do not consider anything but your conspiracy dogma. And never be polite to anybody. It is a sign of weakness. Apollo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:25 AM It's pretty obvious that you have an agenda, GUEST,Apollo. You've been spamming this forum with some last minute propagandizing for your candidate on this thread and others. Your entire posting history (under the name Apollo), which only goes back a few days, is composed entirely of propagandistic bullshit for GW Bush. Maybe you have been around here longer than your posting history suggests... maybe not. But I take GUEST posts like yours as they come. So as far as I'm concerned, you are Apollo and you only have the posting history that I can see when I click on your name. And that posting history shows a blatant agenda. If you spread propaganda, and if I can poke holes in your propaganda and show it to be what it is (bullshit) at a time when it might actually matter, you can bet I'm going to do it. However, with the campaign essentially over for the time being, I'll go back to not really giving a shit what you do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:14 AM Note that I was not trying anything except to make a statement on the subject and voice my opinion. However that is treated like an attempt to do something evil when speaking to conspiracy crowd. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:15 AM Anyway, if, as you're suggesting, the flu vaccine shortage is caused by problems created by bad tort law, why is the flu vaccine the only vaccine that we are having a shortage of? The answer, of course, is that it's not because of bad tort law that we are experiencing a flu vaccine shortage. The pharmaceutical lobbyists know that the flu vaccine is the only vaccine they can use in this way... to blackmail the American people into signing away all of their rights. They can't use the measles vaccine, or any of the other vaccines they give to kids because then nobody would be able to send their kids to school. The flu vaccine is the perfect vaccine with which to blackmail the American people. A few people will die, but not so many that a national tragedy will be created, and I notice they were careful to make sure that there would be enough supply for most of the people who are at high risk, so they won't have quite as many deaths on their conscience (if they have one) as they might otherwise have. It might be a very effective tactic if it weren't for the fact that we can see right through it. Nice try but no cigar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:00 AM I didn't tell you it didn't exist. I posted a link to an article by a body of people who support the very legislation that you are pushing here, and showed you that even they say it hasn't been voted on in the Senate yet. Personally, I have no idea what Kerry and Edwards would do with that piece of legislation. But I also don't like Bush using flu shots as a way to blackmail people into supporting legislation that they don't want. And I won't decide whether or not I would support that legislation until I know a lot more about it than I do now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:23 PM Such language for a Lady! First you claimed that there was no such bill. I showed you the bill existed. Now you question that Kerry opposed it. Things are opposed and die in commitee, so they never get voted on. Maybe a video of the anti tort reform Kerry saying "I oppose this bill" would convince you. I don't have one. Tell me this: Would Kerry support any bill that would allow tort reform? HR 5 the Help Efficient, Accessible, Low Cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act of 2003 passed the House on March 13. Tort reform legislation. The cap on non-economic damages remains at $250,000. Punitive awards are set at the greater of $250,000 or twice the economic damages, and the bill allows defendants to introduce evidence of plaintiff�s receiving compensation for losses from outside sources. The legislation allows states to set their own cap on non-economic damages, regardless of whether they exceed or fall below $250,000. Federal provisions pre-empt certain state laws unless the protections exceed those in HR 5. The legislation retains the Sense of the Congress provision that insurers be made liable for damages when they disallow care that is medically necessary and appropriate. The Senate companion measure is S. 607. S.607 Title: A bill to improve patient access to health care services and provide improved medical care by reducing the excessive burden the liability system places on the health care delivery system. Sponsor: Sen Ensign, John E. [NV] (introduced 3/12/2003) Cosponsors (7) Related Bills: H.R.5, H.R.4280 Latest Major Action: 3/13/2003 Read the second time. Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 33. STATUS: (color indicates Senate actions) 3/12/2003: Introduced in the Senate. Read the first time. Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under Read the First Time. 3/13/2003: Read the second time. Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 33. That's all I can find. If you believe Kerry did not oppose it that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. I just thought I would make people aware of it so they could form an independant opinion. Apollo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: dianavan Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM Cluin - Perfect! I heard another interesting commentary on Canadian/U.S. trade negotiations, in general. Canadians may WANT U.S. exports but the U.S. NEEDS Canadian exports. As the carbon-based economy changes to a hydrogen-based economy, Canada will emerge as a very strong nation. Now all we have to do is keep an eye on Martin. I hope he puts the interest of Canadians ahead of himself in all negotiations with the U.S. He's a smart businessman. Lets hope he is truly on our side. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Cluin Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:29 PM In recent negotiations for influenza vaccine between a Canadian health official and an American representative, it was clear that there was an intended paradox between the American government's sudden reliance on Canada for influenza vaccine despite the fact that the Bush administration wants to discourage Americans from buying prescription drugs from Canadian pharmacies. Not seeing the irony in the request, the American continued to press for the vaccine and then demanded to know why the United States would be charged for the vaccine when Canadians get theirs "for free." The Canadian official replied, "Well, it's not free. Our government pays for it." "Well then," the American asked, "How much will it cost us?" The Canadian replied, "Well, we don't know...we'll let you know." In frustration, the American demanded, "Well, it's urgent, so just send an invoice with the shipment. Now we need to settle on how the vaccine will be delivered?" After careful consideration, the Canadian official replied, "How about by cow? Twenty vials of vaccine will be tied around the neck of every Canadian beef cow that passes over the border. Of course if you want a quicker delivery, we have several softwood lumber trucks available..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM How do you know he opposed it if he hasn't voted on it yet? Blowing smoke up our asses to try to get more votes for your man, Bush, eh, Apollo? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:44 AM "Kerry Opposed HEALTH Act Of 2003" Not voted against but opposed. It is past the House but not past the Senate. No tort reform will pass with Kerry/Edwards in charge. Edwards is a medical liability lawyer that such a bill would hurt. Hence all their claims about lowering health care costs are empty promises. Believe it if you want. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:33 PM Your link, GUEST,Apollo, also indicates that the Senate has not yet voted on H.R. 5. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:40 PM Flu can be life threatening at any age. Depends on other factors - and of course on the type of flu. No one's too sure about the Great Flu Epidemic at the end of the Great War - but it killed more people than the war did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:22 PM Try this: The HEALTH Act Of 2003 Status: The bill passed the House on March 13. Apollo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:21 PM Thanks John. I realize that, but I think this bill has just been voted on in the House. The article in the link I produced in a previous post to this thread says that it has not been voted on yet in the Senate. But thanks for that link. According to John's roll call page, and this page: U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 108th Congress - 1st Session (2003), the Senate did not vote on H.R. Resolution 5 in either 2003 or 2004. So again, in what way did Kerry obstruct this legislation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: JohnInKansas Date: 31 Oct 04 - 05:49 PM Carol - U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 108th 2d Session will show that bills originating in the House are frequently discussed and voted in the Senate using the H.R. identification. It is entirely possible that an "H.R." bill was voted in the Senate. The "H.R." or "S Res" merely shows where the bill originated. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:14 PM I can't get your link to work, GUEST, but I notice it is a link to or about "H.R. 5". H.R. stands for "House Resolution". The House is where the Representatives do their work. John Kerry is a Senator, not a member of the House of Representatives. In what way, exactly, did he help to obstruct the passage of this bill? Has this bill been voted on in the Senate yet? If not, in what other way is it possible for him to have obstructed the passage of the bill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:13 AM "Kerry Opposed HEALTH Act Of 2003, Which Would Encourage Vaccine Production. The HEALTH Act of 2003, which President Bush supports, contains a provision immunizing vaccine manufacturers from punitive damages for products that are approved as safe by the FDA. Because profit margins on vaccines are low, such a provision is critical to encouraging the development and manufacture of vaccines. (H.R. 5, The HEALTH Act Of 2003, Section 7; "But incentive-stifling price controls, liability fears, and greener pastures elsewhere finally prompted a massive flight of big drug companies out of vaccines. The figures tell the story: In 1967 there were 26. By 1996, that number had shrunk to eight. Today, only four big players survive. Biotech's Babies," Business Week,1/14/04 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:11 AM It should be pointed out that it was a Bush spokesman who is being quoted in GUEST,Apollo's 30 Oct 04 - 02:05 AM post. Here's the full quote: Steve Schmidt, a Bush spokesman, said Kerry is partly to blame because he opposed legislation in 2003 shielding vaccine-makers from some lawsuits as a way to entice more companies into the market. "Once again, John Kerry proves he has no solutions to offer, only attacks," Schmidt said. GUEST,Apollo, which legislation, specifically, did Kerry oppose? If you don't provide the specifics and a link to your source, I'll take that to mean that you can't because it didn't happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 30 Oct 04 - 02:05 AM "he opposed legislation in 2003 shielding vaccine-makers from some lawsuits as a way to entice more companies into the market. "Once again, John Kerry proves he has no solutions to offer, only attacks" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38692-2004Oct16.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Blissfully Ignorant Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:37 AM I saw on the news over here( Scotland) college students complaining that they wouldn't get the vaccine because of the shortage. Can someone please explain to me why they would be getting it in the first place? I mean, surely all the flu's going to do to a healthy young adult is put them in bed for a couple of weeks? I've had the flu (verified by a doctor) and it certainly isn't pleasant,but for some it could be life-threatening. Shouldn't the vaccine that is there be going to the people who actually need it? I just think there are some upside down priorities here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:46 AM According to this site (American Medical Directors Association), the "Health Act" bill hasn't even come up for debate in the Senate yet. If that's true, then we can chalk up another manipulative lie from the Bush people: "The House of Representatives has passed broad liability reform legislation as Senate Republican staffers, led by Senator Bill Frist's Office (R-TN), met with representatives from the Health Coalition on Liability and Access (HCLA) to obtain input on future strategy. The Help Efficient, Accessible, Low-cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act of 2004 (H.R. 4280) ensures victims are fully compensated for any and all injuries suffered, but it curbs runaway lawsuits by capping the amount of damages under "pain and suffering" and "punitive damages." The bill, which was later incorporated into H.R. 4279, also seeks to address a growing concern that frivolous lawsuits and excessive courtroom costs have put emergency room doctors and other health care specialists such as OB/GYNs on the list of endangered health care professionals. "Patients need to be treated by doctors in hospital rooms, not by trial lawyers in courtrooms," Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert (R-IL) said. "This legislation will help keep doctors on the job because critical care is in critical condition." Chances of passage of any medical liability bill in the Senate in 2004 are unlikely. According to Senate staff who met with the HCLA--a group of more than 50 organizations representing health care providers,employers, insurers, and health care consumer seeking common sense federal medical liability reforms--it will be difficult to schedule time for debate since many important bills, such as budget bills, remain for action, and Congressional calendar days are limited in light of the fall election. The real hope is for passage of legislation in 2005." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Ebbie Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:20 AM RabbiSol, senior citizess are in the groups that are in line to get a flu shot. What they are saying is that if you are not in a high risk group - whether by age, occupation, health - don't get it. You can have mine. I'm a senior but I have never gotten a flu shot. Never had the flu in years either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST,Apollo Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:12 AM "John Kerry talks about increasing the supply of flu vaccines, but he was an obstacle to flu vaccine production as recently as last year when he opposed the Health Act to encourage vaccine production," Bush spokesman Steve Schmidt said. "His incredible hypocrisy just demonstrates again his willingness to say whatever will benefit him politically, no matter how out of touch his rhetoric is with the facts." Stephanie Cutter, Kerry's communications director, said the senator's opposition to the bill was based on the bill's liability protection for vaccine makers" http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/109800574985410.xml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:25 AM I see Bush has been making great play of the fact that they have not had the flu vaccine. Looking at Liz's list of symptoms... Well, you don't want it be nasty, but it couldn't happen to a nicer guy, as they say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Liz the Squeak Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:37 AM Ah, you want to try gastric flu.... all the joys you have mentioned above, plus the beauty of a 'runny bum'. I spent 3 days wrapped in a duvet, on the toilet, cuddling a bucket. I swear I lost nearly 2 stones in as many days. It took nearly 3 weeks to recover properly, and another 8 to put back the lost weight! And those were the days when I could wear a size 12 dress (not that I ever did....) The last time I had ordinary flu was the time that Limpit decided to bite the end off a thermometer... in Casualty the nurse started checking ME over! And yes, that was the year I got the flu vaccine..... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Peace Date: 22 Oct 04 - 09:44 PM 'I had the Asian flu when I was a kid and use that as the yardstick by which I measure "The Flu."' Had that in the late 1960s--Hoooooly. Sickest I have ever been. Next to that, there has never been a flu since (IMO). That was about two weeks of serious puke, sweat, ache, puke s'more, and wish for the "end" to come. After a few days, the "end" in any form would have been welcome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: dianavan Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:58 PM I wish I knew the name of the company (its on Vancouver Island) that produces the flu vaccine. They have a million doses available but its not getting through thanks to the FDA. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Metchosin Date: 22 Oct 04 - 01:17 AM Interesting theory Guest, however, Chiron is a California based corporation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: GUEST Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:33 PM The UK has always been looking for an opportunity to "pay-back" the sins of the colonists for starting the UK revoluntion - and the subsequent demise of their empire.
Bad sirum...and multiple deaths in the old colonie...will look sweet on the tabloid head-liners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:56 PM It's true, McGrath. I heard someone making a joke about there not being any Viagra shortages. I wasn't joking when I said what I did about people using the flu vaccine as a way to blackmail US voters into compliance on tort reform issues. I think that is precisely why we are having our second flu vaccine shortage in as many years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:46 PM Bloody silly in the first place to rely on one supplier to supply almost half the stuff they knew they were going to need. Someone is responsible for deciding it should be done that way. A lot of Americans are going to suffer because of this, and probably (pretty well certainly, in fact) some are going to die. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: CarolC Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:37 PM dianavan, Jack the Sailor (my dear hubby) is a Canadian from Newfoundland. I think that's why he put the smiley at the end of his post. Considering how much we're paying for insurance right now, and how high our co-pays are, I don't think either of us would be complaining if the system here in the US was more like the system in Canada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:15 PM Today, I read in my local newspaper (Rockland Journal News) that our 2 senators (Chuck Schumer & Hillary Clinton) as well as my local congressman (Elliot Engel (D)) all got their flu shots from the Doctor on Capitol Hill, while we poor senior citizens have to do without. This really gets me angry. Should I take out my frustrations on these 3 Democrats by voting for Bush this time around ? SOL ZELLER |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flu Vaccine Shortage From: JohnInKansas Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:58 PM Mary in Kentucky - I guess the traditional "blessing" when recommending a book is "You won't be bored with it," but in this case you probably will be - but there is quite a lot of good stuff there. It sort of depends on your interest level. I found I couldn't digest more than a chapter, sometimes just part of one, at a sitting; but I did keep finding enought to go back until I finished. John |
