medieval music???

Subject: medieval music???
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 11:45 AM

I just listened (about 5 times in a row) to Agincourt Carol (aka in DT as Victory in Agincourt) on Teresa Doyle's Forerunner album. It's a "traditional" song, but it sounds more medieval than what I think of as "folk". I really like this style of music but I don't know what it's called and where to find more of it. Can someone give me the idiot's summary of music that sounds like it would have been sung at King Henry VIII's Christmas party, and some suggestions of where to hear more of it?

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 01:39 PM

In Mudcat's links go to 'Sixteenth Century Ballads'. Some tunes for these are given there, and all known ones are on my website: www.erols.com/olsonw
BL MS Royal 58 is the biggest collection of songs from King Henry VIII's court, and some songs from 'Bassus', 1530, are also on my website, but I don't have tunes for these.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: T in Oklahoma
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 01:49 PM

Some rennaissance music (Henry VIII and afterward) can be found in W. Chappell's "Popular Music of the Olden Time" (1854) which was reprinted in modern times by Dover. One of these is "Pastime with Good Company" attributed to Henry VIII himself. The Hymnals of several Protestant denominations havek some medieval and rennaissance melodies also (including the Agincourt hymn) though with sacred words.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 02:48 PM

Ah, good, so it's called "rennaissance music", is it? Thanks for the links and references, Bruce and T. Do you have any favorite performers from whom I might purchase recordings? I think 16th century ballads and carols are just what this office cubicle needs to relieve the teduim.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 03:30 PM

Dear Susan- Marie, There are a range of different styles and types of music covered by the "Renaissance "music label, especially in England, because the political and cultural life was in some turmoil at the time. There was a lot of church music -- what would become hymns and independent church pieces called motets -- which you can usually hear around Christmas coming out of the mouths of King's College Choir, Cambridge. Some of the star authors are Taverner, Byrd, and Tallis. It is not music to everyone's taste -- but there is something called the 40 part motet by Thomas Tallis you might want to hear at some point -- it is a bit like hearing a warp in the space-time continuum. Anything on CD by the Tallis Scholars along this line is accurate and beautiful. The secular music of the time includes popular ballads and the hot new style from Italy, which was the madrigal. English stars include William Byrd (again), Orlando Gibbons (again), John Dowland, and many others. A lot of this is lute music. A good collection of sung madrigals is "English Madrigals" by the Quink Vocal Ensemble. There is also a lot of Byrd on records by the "Consort of Musicke". If you get interested in the whole period at all, you should look out for any records by David Munrow and the Early Music Consort (He died some years ago, but the records are among the best ever). There is lots of dance music (instrumentals) by Praetorius, which would grace any cubicle. David M. and his Consort did a good record of that stuff too, but I don't have the title in my head.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 04:08 PM

Thanks very much Peter, I'm looking forward to hearing Thomas Tallis' time warp. I have sung madrigals, but the Agincourt Carol had a much more serious feeling to it, and seemed to have different kinds of harmony than what I associate with a typical madrigal so I didn't make the time period connection. I'll start with recordings by the Tallis Scholars - thanks for the suggestions.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 04:42 PM

In the Classical music bins this stuff is often categorized as "Early Music" (at least here in the States). The rediscovery of the recorder actually had a lot to do with the revival of this music. A fellow named Arnold Dolmetsch discovered an old recorder somewhere and started noodling with it, and eventually started making new ones. Some of the groups I've heard are The Waverly Consort, The Folger Consort and Ensemble Alcatraz.

The further back you go,the less clearly this music was notated, so it becomes very much interpretational. If you check around, you might find an Early Music society not far from where you live. It has become very popular among amateur classical musicians. Also check Recorder societies, since the reportoire for the recorder is mostly older than the hills.

Frank i.t.s.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 07:11 PM

Try the Internet Rennaisance Band at www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/emusic

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Dick Wisan
Date: 12 Nov 98 - 11:16 PM

If you want to know more about Medieval and Renaissance music, look in on rec.music.early. They'll tell you everything you want to know and much more.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From:
Date: 13 Nov 98 - 02:03 AM

Just two comments to add.

First of all, if you tune your guitar strings the way a lute is tuned (I don' t recall what that is right now.) then you can play the lute pieces from Dowland, Byrd, etc--what is usually called Elizabetan Music.

Secondly, don't forget O'Carolan. He was a blind Irish harpist. His music is very Elizabethan in style. There are arrangements of his stuff for several instruments including the guitar. Elderly's has a few listed.

If you can play a keyboard, look into the "Fitzwilliam Virginal Book" and "My Lady Neville's Virginal Book". Both are published by Dover and are cheap.

Murray

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: T in Oklahoma
Date: 13 Nov 98 - 05:01 PM

To Frank-in-the-Swamps' suggestions of performers I would add, for Medieval Music, the Dufay Collective, Anonymous 4, as well as various ensembles that, in the ancient days of vinyl disks, were recorded on the Nonesuch label; for rennaissance and 18th-century music, my favorite group is the Baltimore Consort, but this is only one of many excellent bands. Another good choice is the New World Rennaissance Band.

I would consider O'Carolan (FYI the records from his own time and shortly afterward refer to him as "Carolan" and he is so indexed in the Grove Dictionary and possibly elsewhere; so don't give up if you don't find him under "O") to be a Baroque composer, a follower of Vivaldi and Corelli. But whatever musical period you assign him to, I second the motion in support of his music.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: T in Olkahoma
Date: 13 Nov 98 - 05:09 PM

P.S. I think that if you tune the guitar with the 3rd in the middle, between the 3rd and 4th strings, your strings will stand in the same intervals (though not at the same pitches) as the 6-string rennaissance lute. But like Murray, I don't have the relevant reference books in front of me.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 13 Nov 98 - 05:24 PM

Lower the G string to F# for Lute tuning.

Frank i.t.s.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From:
Date: 13 Nov 98 - 08:12 PM

I have noticed with Irish names that the "O'" is often dropped. I assume it means "of" and is like the "von" in German or the "van" in Dutch. When I do internet searches and library catalog searches, I usually use the name with and without the "O'" as alternates.

Murray

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: dulcimer
Date: 14 Nov 98 - 12:32 AM

I have played at several Medieval/Renaisance festivals, and Carolan tunes have always gone over well. However, I would suggest there are more than enough genuine period tunes/songs one can find by just checking in local libraries or music stores and can easily be performed. Many have interesting stories behind them or lyrics which reflect the ethos of times. I guess it depends on how authentic you and the crowd wants to get.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Ian Kirk
Date: 14 Nov 98 - 09:57 AM

As Peter T. mentions the recordings of David Munro and the Early Music Consort are outstanding. I have an album released on the Orxx label - Where are they now? If you can buy or borrow a copy you'll here such wonderful instruments as Shawm Tabor Recorders - various Crumhorn Cornamuse Dulcian Rackett garkleinflotlein harpsichord and regal

Good luck with your search

Ian

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Ian Kirk
Date: 14 Nov 98 - 10:28 AM

Dick Wisan mentioned a site rec.music.early but I couldn't find it.

Dick - please can you let me have more details sounds interesting

Thanks

ian

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From:
Date: 14 Nov 98 - 07:51 PM

rec.music.early is not really a www site. It is a usenet newsgroup. There are special programs for dealing with newsgroups called "news readers". However many www browsers have programs built in to deal with them. You can try to go to the URL

news://rec.music.early

Netscape has a news reading program. Your network provider has to provide a news server, and you might have to do some configuring. I think it is worth it. That group and some of the instrument groups are very interesting!.

Don't expect the usual www interface. These groups are based upon email. Instead of emailing to a person you email to the newsgroup and your news reader organizes the messages for you to choose from. There is a thread heirarchy like in this forum and the newsreaders have facilities for picking out threads.

Unfortunately, I don't know the name of newsreaders for other platforms than UNIX.

Murray

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Bruce O.
Date: 15 Nov 98 - 02:33 PM

Posings to rec.music.early and many other newsgroups are acessible via www.reference.com

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Nov 98 - 08:57 PM

T of Oklahoma, It's been told to me that (O') Carolan was not a follower, maybe an admirer of Vivaldi. He did very much enjoy the compositions of Italian & German composers & was the first of the great Irish harpers not to follow the strictly Irish style. Geminiani did play Vivaldi's 5th Concerto, in a wager, hoping that O'Carolan couldn't follow, he did & bested Geminiani when he played O'Carolan's Concerto, these two did have an influence on each others music, according to Seamus Connelly. Barry

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Aldus
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 08:51 AM

There is so much very good mediaeval music around that it would be difficult to choose favourites.. However, Gregorian Chant aside.. try a Group called FRETWORK, wonderful music on original instruments. Also a group called Tersichore. Albums such as Music from the Age of...Richard First , Michael Angelo.. Elixabeth First and so on. There is also a very fine Christmas Album called Thiz Yoole.. I cannot recall the artist..but will send on more information should you like to have it. Aginvourt Carol was beautifully recorde on the second Silly Sisters album.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: T in Oklahoma
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 09:41 AM

When I called O'Carolan a "follower" of Vivaldi and Corelli, I meant that he admired and imitated those composers' work, not that he had actually studied under either master as Heinrich Schuetz studied under Gabrielli, or that he could be identified as "school of Vivaldi." Nevertheless the criticism I have seen gave the impression that the influence was mainly a one-way street, with the Italians influencing Carolan. It is interesting to encounter a view that puts Carolan a little closer to the mainstream of the Baroque.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 12:49 PM

Aldus - Do the Silly Sisters do music other than the Aginvourt Carol from this time period? If so, I might be interested in buying a recording to learn more of it. I'm interested mostly in vocal music, since I don't play an instrument (see thread on instruments we'd like to learn but won't). Thanks for everyone's responses - I'm always amazed at what kinds of fish I catch when I throw nets into the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 01:23 PM

Dear Susan-Marie, You have raised an interesting question that as someone who has spent some time wandering around Medieval and Renaissance Music has not found. Does anyone following this thread know of a good album of folk ballads of the period done on original instruments, etc.? I know that this shades into more familiar folk music territory, but is there anyone who has done for them what (for example) has been done for troubadour and trouveres music? All I know is bits and pieces sandwiches between the "higher class" pieces.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Aldus
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 03:02 PM

No, The silly sisters do not do a lot of mediaeval music. However, I will rummage around and see if I can forward some names and titles of albums.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From:
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 03:10 PM

Peter T. : check out http://members.aol.com/Pintndale - period songs on period instruments, very well done.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 03:24 PM

Dear Kirsten, It sounds like interesting music -- I will have to give it a listen -- but if the appended reviews are correct I don't think didgeridoo and a rock feel is exactly what I was after here! Not that I am sure what I was after. Is there some group that does Medieval and Renaissance ballads on medieval and renaissance instruments -- more than just as a one-off? David Munro and his group used to do a few (20 years ago), but are there any specialists out there?

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From:
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 03:44 PM

Hi everybody.

I'm new here. But, concerning the relations between medieval and music music, I made a web page, with real audio files...

You can see it there: Medieval Folk http://club.ib.be/claude.calteux/ppmed.htm

The generic page is The Folk Pages http://club.ib.be/claude.calteux/

Feel free to have a look and to contact me to tell me what you think and you you would like this pages becomes...

My english is a bit crappy hmmm? :-)

Claude

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 04:04 PM

To answer my own question (maybe), there is a group called Circa 1500 that appears to have at least two albums -- "Cries and Ballads of London" and "A Handful of Pleasant Delites" -- only person I know of in the group is Nancy Hadden (flautist) who is also a member of the Harp Consort who have put out a record called "Carolan's Harp". Just to show that everything in Mudcat land is connected to everything else.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Bruce O.
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 05:00 PM

As far as solid evidence goes, it appears the what we now call ballads (English and Scottish) had their origins after about 1550. The term ballad as used in the 16th and 17th century included what we would now call poems and 'metrical histories'(e.g., 'A Lytell Gest of Robyn Hode'). There is no evidence that there was a tune for these, let alone instrumental musical accompaniment. Instrumental musical accompaniment for folk ballads seems to be a 20th century American innovation.

Prof. Child did not include the Agincourt Carol in 'The English and Scottish Popular Ballads', and I've seen no subsequent evidence that it could be called a folk ballad. So far as I can see, there is no evidence that any of the Agincourt songs, ballads, or poems are earlier than the 16th century. "Agincourt, or the English Bowman's Glory" (reprinted in Hales and Furnival, 'Bishop Percy's Folio Manuscript' II, p. 595, 1868) looks to me like a J. P. Collier forgery. (see p. 159 for other Agincourt songs and ballads. One is "King Henry's Fifth's Conquest of France", Child #164, which appears to be of mid-18th century.)

The earliest extant poetical broadside is of about 1500, and in 1540 is found 'A balade agaynst malycyous Sclaunderers', where 'ballad' (or ballette) first appears in a title. Wm. Elderton's "The pangs of Loue and Louers f[i]ttes", 1559, does not cite a tune for singing it, but there is extant a tune for it. Similarly "The God of love", 1563, does not have a tune citation, but there is an extant tune for it. We do not know whether the tunes came before the ballads, or the tunes were composed to fit the ballads. It is in 1568 that one first finds a tune citation on a broadside ballad, "A Newe Ballade of a Louer Extollinge his Ladye", to the tune of "Damon and Pithias", and the broadside actually contains the music (the only Elizabethan one that does). [The three tunes noted are on my website, www.erols.com/olsonw]

All the music extant for the songs in 'A Handefull of Pleasant Delites', 1584 is in an article, by John Ward in 'Journal of the American Musicological Society', X, p. 151, 1957. This includes a facsimile of the broadside with the "Damon and Pithias" tune.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: T in Oklahoma
Date: 17 Nov 98 - 09:37 AM

Several of the bands previously mentioned (Early Music Consort (?), Baltimore Consort, Dufay Collective) use period instruments when performing "period" music. We should also remember what certain wits have pointed out: It was not the intention of the composers of the 14th century that their music should be performed only in accordance with their intentions!

I recently did a 14th century tune on a mountain dulcimer, a 19th century instrument with roots which can be documented to no earlier than circa 1550 in western Europe. Though I say it myself, I thought the music and the the instrument were a good match.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Nov 98 - 10:04 AM

Bruce O. -- This is very interesting -- are you of the opinion that there was no instrumental accompaniment just to ballads, or for folk songs in general? I naturally assumed given troubador music, and various folk musics with instruments around the world, that people in the British Isles would have some accompaniment when singing. If not, is it for class reaons, for example because lutes, etc., were for court work? All this Alan-a-Dale wandering singing through the forest stuff is all 19th century?

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: T in Oklahoma
Date: 17 Nov 98 - 11:19 AM

The question of instrumental accompaniment to troubadour or trouvere music is somewhat controversial. One modern theory holds that "high-style" troubadour songs were unaccompanied, while "low-style" songs were accomanied, generally by the fiddle (which was not yet a violin). The short-necked renaissance lute, while it may have existed in the 12th-13th century, is not known to have been widely popular.

An article by Joel Cohen, entitled "Piero's Vielle", appeared in "Historical Performance" a few years ago, which discusses this issue. A standard reference is Christopher Page's "Voices and Instruments of the Middle Ages".

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Nov 98 - 03:12 PM

Is Page's "Voices..." a book or an article?

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: T in Oklahoma
Date: 22 Nov 98 - 01:38 PM

Page' "Voices..." is a book. U. of California Press, I believe.

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From:
Date: 22 Nov 98 - 11:30 PM

Perhaps not in the folk-song category; but a lot of fun to sing are the catches and glees from Elizabethan times. There were some groups in the 60s that performed them--some with period instruments and some unacompanied. I can't recall the names of the groups; but they used John Feranti frequently as a counter-tenor and they recorded on a cheap lable called "Nonesuch" (I gave away the vinyls before moving to Australia thinking I could replace them any time, sigh.)

Murray

Subject: RE: medieval music???
From: T in Oklahoma
Date: 17 Aug 99 - 12:57 PM

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