BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr

Subject: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:07 PM

Everyone seems to now agree that the progressive left movements for social and political change we saw evidence of reaching critical mass in the lead up to the Iraq war, are now a thing of the past, thanks to this year's US presidential election. Doesn't matter who you blame for that, it is widely considered to be true. The momentum to stop the Iraq war has been stopped dead in it's tracks, in order to appease the Democratic Party, and help them win back the White House.

Yet, none of the Democrats and progressive Kerry supporters offers us any alternatives. All we hear from them are the same old same old media critiques, admonitions of Nader (horrors! the socialists support him!), and vehement attacks upon anyone who dares to criticize Candidate Kerry.

So, we know that the progressive causes and movements are, in fact, the biggest losers this year, regardless of the outcome of the presidential race.

So the question is, what will the progressives do after Inauguration Day? Will it matter who is president?

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:44 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:49 PM

As an Aussie, I think you have two main Political Problems, which are at the root of many of the Political Problems you see - why don't you all get started on fixing these first? As an example look how much effort it took women to get the vote in the USA.

1) Lack of Compulsory Voting - I am mortified at the attitudes of pride I have seen from those who boast that they have never voted! This means that the ignorant and stupid are proud of that... and when half the populace won't vote, it's much easier to con those who do.

2) First past the post voting. You have already hinted that you are not unaware of the side effects of this.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:13 AM

Couldn't agree with you more Robin. We should have compulsory voting, but the American cult of individualism likely won't allow that to happen. You should see the reactions of the majority Americans who are told their kids have to wear uniforms to school!

It isn't just women who have struggled so hard to gain suffrage, but African Americans and Native Americans too. Yet, it is those very groups who are most likely in the "don't vote" column. Compulsory voting might not work, because many people would be able to afford to pay the fines to get out of voting, which means it would be poor people who would be forced to vote.

Which would be brilliant, because Republicans and Democrats who are wealthy enough would pay their fines, and stop voting and distorting and corrupting the process! Which is why the two parties won't introduce that bill, or a proportional representation bill! Because the end result would be they won't have all the power anymore. They won't do it. This is something the citizens of the US MUST do for themselves, or surrender the country to the oligarchy. That's the point we are at.

We don't need an anti-globalization, anti-war movement in the US now. We need a progressive movement agitating for a constitutional amendment to change the electoral process, and to put into the constitution instructions on the way private monies for elections can be raised and distributed to candidates. IE, to circumvent the duopolist election INDUSTRY which has grown in the last half century to become a VERY Big Business.

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:31 PM

Nope, GUEST. The wealthy would vote as they always have, because they have the money and flexibility to rearrange their schedules so there is no "down side" for them; the middle class would have to weigh the advantages of voting vs. paying the fine; and the poor would be forced to vote.

Actually, a big issue that we could change would be to make election day a national no-work holiday, but put it in the middle of the week (Wednesday) so people don't try to make a three-day weekend out of it and go away. I think a lot of Americans don't vote because they are among the most overworked working people of any Western democracy, and it's hard to find the time on a working day.

Of course, you're right about the winner-takes-all, first-past the post system, which is dumb. The problem is that this must be changed on a state-by-state basis, which means 50 individual changes to the law. In each case, whoever is in power in the legislature obviously benefitted from the old system, so it's hard to generate the momentum for a change in ANY legislature, let alone all 50.

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:42 PM

A constitutional amendment would greatly speed up the state-by-state process Nerd. We've amended the Constitution plenty of times, and that was back in the horse and buggy days. I think we can handle it today.

The corrupt incumbency system is really only a major factor at the federal level. I'm not saying it doesn't exist at the local level, but it hasn't been corrupted by money the way the federal system has, so it actually would be much easier to get this rolling at the grassroots level, and single issue vote out anyone who won't support the constitutional amendment at the local level.

Voters have more leverage, even today, than you are allowing for IMO, Nerd.

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 06:57 AM

In Australia we have provision for 'absentee voting' on the day, and postal votes for those who will not be available because of work etc.

We always vote on a Saturday - we used to have only half work Saturdays for many years - the whole point of 7 day trading was to let you suit things to yourself - no excuse for not voting nowadays because of work - only if unexpectedly called out - and emergency workers are expected to arrange for a postal vote anyway.

"the American cult of individualism likely won't allow that to happen"
... and some Americans get upset we we call Yanks Bloody W*****!!! :-)

I also think that the way you hold Federal elections is stupid - all voters should be voting under the same FEDERAL RULES for a FEDERAL ELECTION - called common sense...

A simple solution - no citizenship without voting!

Or

Introduce compulsory voting on a 'Rolling Basis' - all those born (and adults granted citizenship) after 2010 or whatever - a few years whatever away, or 12 months after the Amendment is ratified (or the next election year 12 months after the Amendment is ratified) - have compulsory voting and fines. No person already born will have their 'rights' changed. :-) So it will take a while - but all the kids are then taught in school that they MUST vote!!!

You could use the 'no future citizenship without voting' tagline...
:-)

The second thing is eventually change the first past the post - but right now - if all those refusing to vote voted for one third party candidate the Repubs and Democrats are finished! - and that's about 50%.

Also you could take note that if less than 50% vote - it is not really a quorum, and the election is really invalid.... :-) on several grounds, not the least morally...

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 07:06 AM

Oh, I left out one more important thing...

The winner should be the candidate with the majority of votes - i.e. 50+% - but without some sort of preference system, that may be difficult to do in a single round - you would need a second round, like the French Presidential System. But it would allow the growth of real alternate parties before the 'real Revolution' arises out of nowhere and engulfs the USA.

Oh, and BTW, NOBODY votes for the President - you can only vote for people who are not compelled to follow the popular vote - the stupid electoral college system - which was designed in horse and buggy days.... all those primaries now should be held on one day too! you don't have an Election - you have a Circus! - and an industry that wastes huge amounts of resources.

I also think that by locking the whole process into fixed dates - nasty tricks can be planned - fixed terms may be ok - but the election should be decided when it is decided (the counting finished and all appeals finished) - not on a fixed date!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:59 AM

Well, as a progressive and one of the few who, after some soul searching, still will vote for Nadar, I am hoping for a constitutional crisis from this election. Yeah, I hope it is so miserably deadlocked that it will be decided in the House of Representatives. It wouldn't hurt for the Dems to win a few House and maybe an additional Senate seat even though these folks wouldn't be the ones who would decide which set of electors to accept for deciding the next president.

(That is irresponsible and crazy thinking, Bobert!!!)

No, it's not. What we have is one party (fraternity, if you will...) rule. Throwing the presidential election into the House would, at the very least, make existing House members aware that there are millions of folks out there who go left un-represented. In this case it may just be the Dems, who if this goes to the House should put up a purdy good PR battle. I'm not sure exactly what will come out of such a crisis but it is not unreasonable to expect the "winner take all" electorial college to be shut down. This would be a shot in the arm for the progressives because it would provide motivation to vote *for* something rather than *against* something. Yeah, if I know that if my state votes 10% progressive that 1 progressive elector will cast a vote for Nadar when the Electorial College convenes then I'm more apt to vote for him...

So bring on a very messy election. The messier, the better for the future of 3rd parties (really 2nd parties since the Demopubs ain't much different...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Indie & 3rd Partyites: Who Loses This Yr
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 10:45 AM

The election industry is so out of control, the electioneering never stops. When they aren't advertising they are strong arm fundraising. To me, the partisan warfare between the Democrats and the Republicans hasn't stopped since 2000. It has been the most out of control partisan warfare I've ever seen in my life time. Not because this election is more important than any other, but because the Democrats are really angry they are completely and totally out of power for the first time in nearly a century.