BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?

Subject: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:31 PM

Anyone catch this when it aired the other night? I watched for about 5 minutes, then switched it off. More inflammatory swift boat vets for bush propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:33 PM

Oops! Forgot to say that because of the pressure Sinclair received, they reshot the doc with a more "balanced" viewpoint, renamed it "A POW Story: Politics, Pressure and the Media" and ran the sucker after saying it wouldn't show "Stolen Honor".

As if any of that mattered in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 07:04 PM

We saw excerpts of it on Link TV a few evenings ago. They accompanied it with some commentary pointing out some factual and historic inaccuracies. After showing the excerpts of Stolen Honor, they then showed excerpts of the movie Going Up River, which gave a much more detailed and historically accurate account of Kerry's experiences in Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 07:13 PM

When Carol and I saw the movies, I wrote a little review on another forum.


We just saw much of Stolen Honor on Link TV. Its not well done but it has some power. The narration is stilted and to my mind does not sound believable. The best moment is the old gentleman next to his wife. He is wearing his medal of honor around his neck. It is very moving. I wished he was telling his own story, I would really have enjoyed that.

Frankly, I think Sinclair will keep more viewers by showing excerpts. I think one of the reasons the Networks wouldn't touch it is because, its production values barely match that of a local news show. You can buy it or see it here www.stolenhonor.com/

A couple of things about it seem very very wrong. God Bless them, but these guys who spent 4, 5, 6, 7 years in prison, who were all pilots, who do not claim to have seen what went on on the ground in Vietnam, who obviously did not know the atmosphere back in the states, are not so credible when they claim that Kerry was a liar; are not credible when they talk about his motives; are not credible when they blame the whole antiwar movement on John Kerry, Jane Fonda and some dude named Tom Hayden.

The excerpts of the movie blame Kerry by name and only Kerry for the US losing the war in Viet Nam and oddly enough for also prolonging the war. They say that the enemy "held" on and prolonged the war because of Kerry, but plainly history shows that they hung on until they prevailed. They wouldn't have won quicker if Kerry had not protested. They fought the Chinese after the Americans left. At least they didn't blame Kerry for that.


www.stolenhonor.com


Here is the LINKTV schedule if you get Link and if you want to see the film. I'm listening to African music on Link right now... excellent!!


http://www.linktv.org/programming/programDescription.php4?code=films1


Also we saw "Going Upriver" immediately after Stolen Honor. We enjoyed it very much. It portrays Kerry's Viet Nam Service and his war protest from his point of view and from the point of view of those who protested and served with him.

Great music, great interviews, great film clips an interesting story, well told.

here's the website.

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 07:43 PM

Blickies:

Stolen Honor

http://www.stolenhonor.com

Link TV

http://www.linktv.org/programming/programDescription.php4?code=films1


Going Upriver

http://goingupriver.com/

http://www.thekerrymovie.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 01:45 PM

What Jack said - I agree. Even the Marines I know agree that Kerry's medals were appropriate for what he did as an officer in the Navy.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

Thanks for the links.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:10 PM

Going Up River demonstrates clearly that Kerry is a thoughtful and courageous gent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 09:46 AM

I don't watch very much tv at all. And we don't (I think) get Sinclair except as a gas station.

Just as well. The "Swift Boat...Truth" thing makes me, as a veteran, slightly sick. I mean, the retired Admiral is the same guy who put Kerry in for the Silver Star -- that's not obligatory and indeed NOT done unless the deeds are attested to, so either Kerry deserved the medal, or the Admiral should be brought to trial for falsification.

Hell, I rarely watch the Weather Channel any more....

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:14 AM

The cognitive dissonance among vets is something I expect though. Many active military (I've done political organizing, including election campaigning around military bases my entire adult life) people will tell you they can't vote because they are in the military, when you try and hand them a flyer or ask them if they are registered to vote. For many years, the brainwashing the military did to it's new recruits fueled those sorts of ideas among active military and their families.

The reason why the majority of active military personnel and their families are registered as Republicans, is because the Republican party knew exactly how to exploit those misconceptions among the military, and did a lot of fear mongering about how much the Democrats opposed the military. Which of course has never been true. The TRUE Republican position has been, at least since the Reagan administration "the hell with the grunts' benefits" and wildly overfund the military contractors instead. The Democrats vote to wildly overfund the military contractors also, but they pay lip service at least, in their claims to be more on the grunts' side when it comes to active military and veterans' benefits. They just haven't done anything about the piss poor benefit situation.

The government's solution to the military benefit crisis, whether the Republicans or Democrats have been in power, has been to keep overfunding the contractors, to "privatize" (ie outsource the work to Halliburton and Bechtel) military services, close bases, and leave the benefits alone or minutely increase them in ways that certainly haven't kept up with the cost of living and inflation.

That's the game, yet most active military, vets, and their families would rather believe in the Republican party these days, because they were the party that went to the bases and started organizing military constituencies to get them to vote.

The Democrats could easily have won over that constituency to their side at any time under Clinton by simply throwing the military a benefits bone now and then, but just couldn't be bothered. They certainly paid the price for that in 2000, and likely will this year as well.

So it is no surprise to me that many military voters are buying this pack of lies the Swift Boat Vets organization are selling them. The Republicans have been doing just that sort of fear mongering among them since the Vietnam War. There is even an urban legend canon that goes along with it: Hanoi Jane, the anti-war movement referring to soldiers as baby killers (which never happened either), and then the classic urban legend which many Mudcat vets will actually tell you happened to them or someone they know personally--that anti-war demonstrators spit on them.

All part of the BIG LIE syndrome and the militarist propaganda machine, folks. Kerry has never played along with the Big Lies in terms of the urban legends publicly. Whether he plays into those beliefs held almost universally by active military and vets, I have no idea. But that is how the admiral who recommended Kerry for the medals can come back a couple decades later in the heat of another battle for hearts and minds, and say Kerry didn't deserve the medals, and have so many active military and vets actually believe the lie.

That's how the Big Lie and propaganda wars work, folks. Now, the fact that Democrats never countered those lies and urban legends because they neglected organizing the military, has come back to bite the Democrats in the ass in the form of this fake controversy that feeds right into the military's urban legends about Vietnam. They could have been countering the urban mytholigizing for decades, by simply putting the truth out there, but they didn't have the guts to do it, I guess.

So now, Kerry, et al are paying the price for their silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM

As usual GUEST you are the liar.

1. When I was drafted into the Marine Corps in 67 we were instructed to register with our local Home of Record states, and I first voted in the '68 elections. And I was not unhappy with my choice when Nixon pulled the Marines out in 1970 as I was finishing up my tour there. Later, after the Saturday Night Massacre in 72, I felt Nixon had to go. It is true that military personnel are warned about engaging in political activety, especially in uniform, but to this day they are encouraged to vote, and for no particular candidate. My experience has been that those in the military tend to vote akin to the region they enlisted from, with say New Yorkers and blacks voting Democratic and Westerners and Southerners voting Republican. And while my state of West Viginia has only voted Republican in the 2000 election, I do see it repeating again this year. I also know of no former Marine who is voting for Kerry, though that may be a selective memory   

2. As I related in a thread of a couple of years ago, a couple of hippies did spit on me in my Marine Corps uniform outside the Oakland Shipyard as I was trying to hail a cab to go to my aunts, who lived in the Berkeley Hills. I was arrested for beating them both with a section of rebar, after they also tried to rob me of my seabag, though the the cop, who was a former Marine, let me go at the bus stop on Ashby Ave.

3. While both sides could be chasened with the "big lie syndrome", Kerry's attempt at invoking the possiblity of a draft strikes me as one of his more foolish attempts.

4. As I have stated in earlier threads, I know of no former Officer of Marines who would stoop so low as to accept the medals Kerry so flagrently sought, in the conditions described.

5. Carol C, you have played at O'Hurleys with the wife of one of the speakers in the Stolen Honor documentary; Judy Warner, whose husband, Jim Warner was the one who talked about them rebreaking his leg during one of those interrogations. She used to play a recorder with the Mt. Airy crowd who came with Rock and Candy. And I had linked the website a couple of months back in a thread about an October Suprise.

6. As a 60% disabled vet I have to say my VA medical care is superlative, far better then either of the local civilian hospitals. Several years ago, when I had my heart attack, I was released from the VA in Marinsburg, WV, after a series of surgeries there and in Washington DC, after simply signing my name, with no additional costs, period.

7. And GUEST, for one who provides no surname for "Guest", you are the last person to talk to any in-country Vietnam Vet about guts, which you clearly know nothing about, and possess no capacity to demonstrate...

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 06:53 PM

Claymore, I think Judy must have started going to O'Hurley's after I stopped going there, because I don't remember her.

Anyway, on the subject of the draft, I was in a conversation here in the Mudcat with a veteran of this Iraq war (a Marine) a few days ago. He has recently returned from Iraq, and he believes that there will be a draft regardless of who is elected. So maybe you're a bit out of touch with what the people who are serving in the military these days think about what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 07:04 PM

from today's Washington Post: I about swallowed my gum....

Sinclair Chief Denies Political Agenda

By Frank Ahrens
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 26, 2004; Page E01

It's as if Bill Gates were to say he doesn't spend much time on the computer, or that Daniel Snyder actually prefers bridge to football. The head of the nation's largest collection of television stations insists that he rarely watches the shows his stations air, including parts of the anti-John Kerry documentary that brought so much controversy to his doorstep over the past two weeks.

In a rare, wide-ranging and sometimes feisty and combative interview on Friday, David D. Smith, chief executive of Sinclair Broadcast Group Inc., said he has been mischaracterized as a Republican activist who has attempted to use his family-controlled company to support GOP causes. He denied trying to sway the presidential election by requiring his stations to air a special on Friday that included several minutes of "Stolen Honor: Wounds That Never Heal," which features former Vietnam POWs saying their captors used Kerry's postwar testimony before Congress against them.

more, if you have registered

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Genie
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:27 AM

One reason most overseas military support Bush -- if, in fact, they do -- is that Armed Services (Forces?) Radio broadcasts Rush Limbaugh to all the troops but airs no one speaking for the other side.   Some service men have also said they do not feel free to openly support Kerry (or Nader) without fear of reprisal -- especially now, when almost any 'misstep' can get you reassigned to Iraq duty or to more dangerous assignments -- and that they are not even allowed privacy in the ballot box.

Guest, you said:
"...it is no surprise to me that many military voters are buying this pack of lies the Swift Boat Vets organization are selling them. The Republicans have been doing just that sort of fear mongering among them since the Vietnam War. ...

... Kerry has never played along with the Big Lies in terms of the urban legends publicly. Whether he plays into those beliefs held almost universally by active military and vets, I have no idea. But that is how the admiral who recommended Kerry for the medals can come back a couple decades later in the heat of another battle for hearts and minds, and say Kerry didn't deserve the medals, and have so many active military and vets actually believe the lie.

...the fact that Democrats never countered those lies and urban legends because they neglected organizing the military, has come back to bite the Democrats in the ass in the form of this fake controversy that feeds right into the military's urban legends about Vietnam. They could have been countering the urban mythologizing for decades, by simply putting the truth out there, but they didn't have the guts to do it, I guess.

So now, Kerry, et al are paying the price for their silence. "

I tend to agree. Kerry has missed several golden opportunities -- e.g., in the debates -- to let the public know how he and the Democrats have supported the troops while the Bush folks have not. E.g., Bush and most Repubs supported ONE VERSION of "the 87 million dollars" for the troops, while Kerry and most of the Democrats supported ANOTHER. Kerry's version would have extended health care benefits to Guard and Reservists, but Bush said he would veto that version.    Why the heck Kerry hasn't simply SAID this to the general public, I can't, for the life of me, fathom!   The Dems need to answer the Repubs distortions and charges clearly, forcefully, and as soon as they are made. Otherwise, "a lie repeated often enough becomes [the public's] truth."


GUEST,Claymore,

I DK about "former Marines" supporting Kerry, but if you want to hear from veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq who are NOT supporting Bush, there are plenty of them here:
http://optruth.org/main.cfm

As for the "draft" issue, Kerry has been wise enough -- realistic enough -- not to PROMISE there won't be one.   How can any President honestly guarantee that, not knowing what military challenges the US will face? The point is, GW Bush's stated position is a much more agressive, pre-emptive one when it comes to military conflict than Kerry's is. Given Bush's track record and current rhetoric, it seems far more likely that he might initiate military action against Korea, Iran, and other "nations that harbor terrorists" than Kerry would. He's also committed to giving tax breaks in times of war, further hampering efforts to expand our military, as needed, without conscription. Plus, as Kerry has pointed out,, Bush has already been using a "back door draft" via "stop loss," etc., where the Guard and Reserves are concerned, and those whose voluntary service terms should be ending. In warning that a second Bush term could lead to a resumption of the draft, Kerry is simply being realistic.


Claymore, you also said you "...know of no former Officer of Marines who would stoop so low as to accept the medals Kerry so flagrently sought, in the conditions described."
Again, DK about Marines, but Sen. Bob Dole, himself, said that one of his Purple Hearts was for what he described as a minor flesh wound. IIRC, he said something like, "... they patched me up with a band aid and a Purple Heart." (He also said that injury was, accidentally, self-inflicted." Apparently, the military doesn't demand near-fatal or maiming injuries to award Purple Hearts.

You also speak in glowing terms of your VA Hospital care. As you should. But the Bush administration has been closing VA hospitals right and left.

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: GUEST,John John
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:09 AM

but airs no one speaking for the other side

Who should they air?

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:28 AM

Al Franken

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: mg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:54 AM

I have no idea of the membership affiliations of the urban legend people...but those are not urban legends devoid of truth. They happened. Younger people...sometimes urban legends are true. In the case of the Vietnam war, lots happened. Lots was ugly. There was tremendous abuse against the veterans. I can't say in particular who did it and who didn't do it. But lots and lots and lots of people did it and would to this day if social pressure wasn't driving it a bit more underground. Or perhaps there was in some cases a maturation process and a realization of the mortal effects their behavior had. Actually I do have a list of personal contacts that I remember stuff they said and I can't stomach them to this day. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:01 AM

Claymore:

There is a poignant scene in "Going Up River" in which the Veterans Against the War -- US Marines, may of them, one by one return to the White House and return the silver statrs, citations, Purple Hearts and other decorations they had accepted under battle conditions not unlike Kerry's.   They do this by heaving them over a temporary fence onto the White House grounds.

They had all accepted those medals just as Kerry had.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: GUEST,Johnjohn
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM

JTS:

How? He won't pay his bills so he is not on the air, Only on Sundance.

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:42 PM

"Air America's failure shows liberals have no place on talk-radio airwaves"
http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/04/16/407f6b60b4fbc

Subject: RE: BS: Who saw 'Stolen Honor' on Sinclair?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:46 PM

He has to pay bills to be on Armed Forces Radio? That's ridiculous. The Pentagon wants right wing propaganda to be broadcast to the troops. Its been that way at least since Vietnam, (remember Good Morning Vietnam, that was based on a real guy.) probably since the invention of Radio.