BS: When are fire fighters heroes?

Subject: BS: When are firemen heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:04 PM

This last spring, I was on a construction project when I met a very interesting man. He is a full time firefighter, a Captain, I believe. He worked four days on, three days off, etc. Because of his mixed hours, he is able to paint houses as his side job.

During a coffee break, I started a conversation with him. I knew his boss and several of his fellow firefighters. Quite naturally the conversation turned to the firefighters that died in the twin towers on 9/11. I asked him about that. His comments startled me, as I'd never heard anything like this before.

He said, in essance: "Those dumb bastards that died were NOT heros, they were just doing their jobs. They were trained and equipped. They were simply following orders."

He then pointed to a house across the street and said: "If that house blew up, and YOU ran into that house to save someone ... YOU would be a hero. You would be a hero because you wouldn't know what you were doing. You aren't trained. You would not be wearing a thousand dollars worth of fire protection gear."

He went on to say: "If I ran into that house, I would have already made the call, I would have donned my gear, and I would evacuate everyone safely."

Then, and here's the amazing part, he went on to say: "Those fire command officers in charge of the scene at 9/11 should be brought up on criminal charges. They KNEW what was happenning, and yet they knowingly sent those firefighters to their deaths."

I'll be interested in your comments. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:18 PM

Well, it's certainly refreshing to see an opinion so far removed from the politically correct, unquestioning admiration whether one agrees with it or not...

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:22 PM

Bullsh!t...

Given that their wage sucks for the work they do, they are heroes for even THINKING about 'doing their jobs'...

Teachers... Nurses... Cops... Fire-fighters... Ambulance Drivers... Soldiers... You call them your heroes, but you PAY them like chumps!

"Those fire command officers in charge of the scene at 9/11 should be brought up on criminal charges. They KNEW what was happenning, and yet they knowingly sent those firefighters to their deaths."

He sounds like an a$$h0le... given that nothing like this had ever happened before, how could the command officers possibly KNOW what was happening? I dismiss his comments as verbal diarrhoea

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:33 PM

Geeze Clinton! ... why don't you just come straight out and tell me what you REALLY think instead of beating around the bush!

I truly did NOT want to start yet another devise/derisive subject. And, I might add, I hope that NO ONE can figure out how to put a political spin on this one.

CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:53 PM

Bob,

I have to agree with the assessment of your buddy regarding the loss of so many guys and gals in the collapse of the Twin Towers. The command decisions were stupid, IMO.

I have been fighting fires for ten years. During that time I have entered about 20 burning structures doing searches for people, fire attack, rapid intervention, protection or fire suppression. I have never felt like a hero. Firefighting is team work, and firefighters work as teams. Dispatchers get the info, drivers get us there, hydrant guys/gals supply water, BA people do entry, pump operators make sure the guys/gals on the nozzle ends have water, teams provide cover and protection, others track our movement via radio, others make sure we are suited up properly, and we go do the job. It's about doing the job, not about heroism. Heroes don't last long in the fire service, because nobady wants to do entry with a hero. It's too dangerous.

Recently, some of our guys were awarded stuff for bravery on a rescue a few years back. They were embarrassed to go because they wanted the certificates and medals to be awarded to the department, not themselves. Getting killed at a fire scene can happen. It has dangers. But as your friend said, we have bunker gear that can withstand high temps and breathing apparatus that will allow us air that isn't heated. It also keeps the toxins out of our lungs. Cost? As he said, about a thousand dollars. (I had some burning stuff from a road flare blow onto my gear and burn three small holes in my jacket. Had to get it repaired at a cost of close to $150) because the pinprick holes destroyed the integrity of the jacket. Our training, which is ongoing, is very costly. Having the entire 10-01 in Canada can run as much as five thousand dollars just for the courses and materials. Our aerial ladder truck was cheap at $375,000. We recently purchased a new pumper, and it was a bare-bones $85,000--no hose, nozzles, tools included. Our rescue truck carries upwards of $150,000 of fancy tools--what people call the Jaws (and we call cutters, spreaders) and other entry tools, rescue ropes and pulleys, stretchers, air tanks, first aid stuff, radios and batteries, etc. The truck was about $165,000.

New building construction--cheap and fast stuff wherein one burned-through support on a floor can make the whole floor unsafe (and someone's floor is someone else's ceiling) has made it mandatory for firefighters to study building construction--theory and practical. As your friend said, we have the training, and we do everything possible to anticipate and eliminate the dangers at every scene to which we respond. The results may seem heroic, but the results come from training, communication and knowledge. We work hard before we ever get near a working fire, and the stuff we do is what we practise doing as often as we can. Really, it's no big deal. Too many folks saw "Backdraft" and it's a hard movie to deal with. Great music, kinda good story, and lotsa really stupid firefighting. If anyone on the department to which I belong saw me even thinking about entering an engulfed structure 1) with an open jacket, 2) with the strap of my lid hanging loose, 3) without gloves, 4) without BA, I would be immediately relieved of my duties, and my pager would be requested within 24 hours. The stuff that happened at the Towers was tragic, and I mean tragic because it was not necessary for that many lives of emergency workers to be lost. Most of those deaths did not have to happen; indeed, most should not have happened, IMO.

In short, emergency work is not about heroism. It is about doing the job and helping people at the same time. It's work we're proud to do, but you won't get too many of us wanting to be called heroes, or brave, or stuff like that. It's not what the job's about.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:55 PM

" you won't get too many of us wanting to be called heroes"

Most who really are, don't want to be called either...

That doesn't stop them from being

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:04 PM

Seems to me that firefighters go out, every time they go out, ready and willing to put their lives on the line for others. That they are trained and equiped -- hopefully with the best possible of each -- to do so is to be expected. Ditto for cops, conservation officers (who, unlike cops, can usually assume that those they confront are armed), nurses, EMTs, soldiers, and all.

My God! I wouldn't want to share a fire, an ambulance, a foxhole, an ER, a patrol car, or even my library with those who were NOT as well trained and equiped as they could be!

So let's use an accounting term and say that equipage and training are "fixed assets" and considered givens in the equation. They are assumed.

I know a bunch of fire fighters. My cousin is a fire chief who came up from the ranks, as did his father before him (at one point he was his father's boss).

Any of them would "go in" if there was any hope of saving life. And this is especially true if the life is that of a child.

Heroism, to me anyway, consists of going beyond courage. It's selfless. It's Sally Rooke staying on her switchboard to warn her friends and neighbors of a flash flood, staying there until she was swept away. It's Kate Shelley crawling across the bridge in the storm. It's the firefighters and the other "first responders" who perished on September 11. It's Richard Sorenson (died October 9, 2004) jumping on a grenade and saving the wounded sharing his hole in the Solomons in WW2.

To me it's also the mother or father who trudges off each day to work s/he hates so that the family is fed and clothed. But these sorts are a different breed of heroes, and not under discussion here.

I seldom tell a fire captain he's full of shit, but this one is.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:06 PM

I will respectfully disagree with ClintonHammond on this. There were other building collapses of similar structures--no not as tall, but big--and the fire service has been aware for years that collapse kills lotsa firefighters. It was not necessary to send so many into the Towers. There is no question there would have been loss of life, but 300 is 260 too many, IMO. All that could be done, really, was evacuation. I don't think NYC has pumpers that could supply sufficent water that high up, and the loss of pump power is about 10 kPa per meter of altitude. Even standpipes have to be measured from the ground up. It would have taken a gang of 65 mm hose lines to put enough water with foam on the fire to stop it. A single foam proportioner requires 1400 kPa to operate. Add a friction loss of 100 kPa per 30 meters of 65 mm line and the height the water/foam had to be pumped and nozzle loss--nope, I don't see how.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:09 PM

I agree with what Rapaire has said, and he has said it well. However, what he has said is that 'heroism' doesn't come with the gear. That's true.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:12 PM

Oops. Sorenson was in the Marshalls, not the Solomons.

True, Anonymous Guest. But they still went in to get people out, in a rescue mode (so to speak).

I don't know about the equipment NYFD had or has, but the technology is separate from the motivations of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:13 PM

"Teachers... Nurses... Cops... Fire-fighters... Ambulance Drivers... Soldiers..."

I have been (or am) four of the people you mentioned. You are correct about the pay, but people attracted to those kinds of work usually aren't in it for the bucks.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:14 PM

Rapaire ... You confused me. If I read you right, you said: "I seldom tell a fire captain he's full of shit."

I simply don't understand your message, with all due respect. And you and I BOTH know that I DO repsect you.

Can you please clearify what you mean? Thanks, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:15 PM

Ten years of administering a computer system taught me that technology is a tool, not an answer.

The answers are only within us, and we should realize that the tools are only aids.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM

I maintain they deserve MUCH better than they get...

Especially in a world where politicians, actors and baseball players get such HUGE money for doing basically sweet f#ck all!

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:21 PM

You are so right, Rapaire, about the motivations of the guys and gals who do the job. And a child at risk may be the strongest of all things to call people into dangerous situations. Please don't misunderstand me: I do not for a second call into question the integrity (or bravery) of what those men and women did. The point I tried to make (not very well I'm afraid) is that none of them did so considering themselves to be heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:22 PM

Bob, I don't usually tell someone who is expert in their job they're full of shit about something they've said pertaining to their job. To reach Fire Captain you do have to know something about the job. I don't usually tell a Fire Captain he's full of shit when he's talking about his job. This time I think he is. That's all.

GUEST, I understand how your fellow fighters feel, 'cause I feel the same way when I'm told that "You've done such a great job here." It's not me; I only swing the baton and try to make it so that the staff can do the great job. I figure that I only get paid the big bucks to fix it so they can do their jobs in the best possible way. And yes, I'm embarassed when I get complimented and I pass it on to them -- and tell the person talking to me who REALLY to congratulate.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:22 PM

Clinton, I agree. Wholeheartedly.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:23 PM

Clinton ... I couldn't agree with you more! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:26 PM

Well, hell yes, Clinton! I've long thought that those who deserve the best pay aren't those who are getting it.

How much should they pay you to put your life on the line? When pretty much every time you answered a call you could be killed in a very nasty way?

But they aren't in it for the money....

("We're all adrenaline junkies," Chief Quick said to me the other, smiling.)

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:49 PM

It's interesting to see a perception of firefighters that maybe firefighters don't see. I hope more people in the emergency rescue field respond. I have a few in mind, and their input would be great to read. I have to get home. Good night to you all, and while we're at it, check your smoke alarms.

PS As a by the way, firefighters' heroes are people with muscular dystrophy.

PPS There are approximately one million two hundred thousand firefighters in North America (Canada and the US). Of those, about 850,000 are volunteers. Trivia for the day.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:59 PM

I am a full time Fire Captain and part time paramedic instructor with twenty one years in the business.

When I make the decision about the way in which I'll attack a fire it's based on training, experience, and faith in my equipment. I stack the odds in my crew's favor, then practice ongoing risk management at a very high level.

Every occupation has its risks and takes its toll. I'm content that I keep my exposure to a minimum and thus far I've sent a crew home safe at the end of each shift.

I'm not a hero. I'm a guy doing a job he's lucky to have. Few of the professionals I know would call themselves heros, but would agree that the guy with no training or equipment who makes a rescue has performed an act of heroism. Applied to ourselves, it's just not a word with which we're comfortable.

Firefighters don't have the market cornered on virtue. You won't look long to find compassion, courage and grace in the people who work in classrooms, ambulances, partol cars and emergency departments.

I can't speak with any authority about who knew what when the towers came down. Lessons have been learned from the events of that day, but we'll never have the complete picture.

I can say that we're always appreciative of the support of our communities.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:11 AM

I burned slash (clear cut logging units) and fought forest fires in college and after for several years, with the U.S. Forest Service. The training from there has served me well on several occasions, but also given me a very cautious attitude when approaching situations where action is necessary. I also worked for several years as a volunteer with the Mountain Rescue team from my hometown. Since I was working up in the mountains in the summers and the rescues were often in the mountains near me, I was a very early responder because I lived 50 miles closer to the incidents than the rest of the team. There was one other USFS guy up there in the same group, so we often were the first to the scene. The fire fighting was something I did because (initially) it looked hard but exciting, but mostly it was how to pay for college. The overtime, hazardous duty pay, and per diem added up. It gets in your blood. I still feel my pulse race at the news of the fires every summer. The mountaineering was on my own time, and was what I considered my responsibility as a climber. If I had the skills that could help save someone's life, I would use them in this fashion.

I don't recall anyone ever calling any of us heroes in any formal sense, but that isn't why we did it, as has been remarked above. The times of acknowledgement that I remember best after all of these years are some of the very small things. Coming down off of the line next to the highway, and having someone in what looks like the classic snowbird motor home pull over, pull out a cooler, and hand everyone a cold Coke. It was more than a drink, we all knew that, and nothing ever tasted so good. Or the regular potluck dinner in town that the fire fighters were always invited to, and our payback to them (in addition to putting out fires, of course) was not in a covered hot dish, but to help out on some task around the church--painting, putting up playground equipment, etc.

Mostly I'm contributing this just so there is a distaff voice registered on this thread. (My most "heroic" act? That would be in my "mom" hat: pulling a little boy off of a littler girl he was drowning in the wading end of the city pool many years ago. When I saw them, I was on those kids so fast, plucking them both out of the water, and wondering at the same time if I was just overreacting. I knew this wasn't the case a moment later when the shaken lifeguard came over and thanked me).

BTW: Mr. Firefighter, I won't say your name, but why the anonymous posting? Coworkers read Mudcat?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:19 AM

SRS: Why would that be any concern of yours?

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:27 AM

Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:31 AM

Basically, SRS, it's my concern, not yours.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:53 AM

Sorry, SRS. That was uncalled for. Basically, some things just don't have to have a reason, and this is one of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: mg
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:54 AM

I won't second guess the fire captains etc. But I sure will whoever let some of those towers be built the way they were and just ordinary construction. Inexcusable for the tenants and the firefighters. I can't understand why we build out of wood basically, except where the earthquake hazard far exceeds hazards from fire, hurricanes etc. We have plenty of stone here and there. Build with that or cement. Save the wood for floors and furniture etc. Build smaller and build safer. mg

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 07:40 AM

People get embarassed and even annoyed about the way "hero" is used, because it's got tarnished with showing off and being reckless, and that isn't what jobs like firefighting is about.

But people who do their job, and don't back off when they know they might get killed, or injured, or when it means enduring terrible conditions, because that's part of the job, they're heroes all right.

As for the question of who was to blame, I think hindsight in the circumstances of September 11th is unfair. As I understand it, no one could have anticipated the Towers were going to collapse like that.

Repeatedly it had been reported that the Towers were built so that even a plane crashing into them wouldn't bring them down. After all, leaving aside what actually happened with the hijacking, an accident of that kind was always possible, what with airliners flying over the city. I am sure the people who planned this were as astonished as everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 08:40 AM

"...no one could have anticipated the Towers were going to collapse like that."

I meant no one on the scene at the time. The people who designed and built the Towers surely should have taken into account the possibility of an airliner crashing into the building, and made sure that the design was such that a catastrophic collapse could not happen. As people had been led to believe had been done.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:29 AM

My wife's uncle Al was on the Smoky Bear fire, brought down from Northern California to help out.

When they were released, dirty, smoky, and hungry, they were flown to El Paso for trans-shipment back to Reading. There was some hours to wait, so they went for a meal.

At a very, very posh restaurant, the best in town.

The maitre d' was appalled at these dirty, sweaty men wanting to eat there. Until the owner, hearing the ruckus, arrived.

They were recognized and asked, "Are you the California fire experts?"

Well, they admited that they were fire fighters from Northern California, yeah.

Best table, free meals and drinks, and a ride back to their plane from the grateful restaurant owner.

Now, Al's wife, Camille also had some interesting things happen. Like her smoke-jumping sons parachuting into her backyard, or a helicopter dropping her husband off on the way back to the Reading base, or tankers buzzing the house to say "Hi!" to Al.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:40 AM

Mary, if buildings were still built of wood and stone only, they wouldn't be taller than six stories. The twin towers were actually a marvel of engineering, and were built of steel and concrete. They were built to withstand earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes. Who knew about jetliners? I won't end on a glib note though--I recall in documentaries that planes were considered, but I don't remember the conclusions reached. The only other plane/skyscraper incident I remember is a small plane lodging itself in the Empire State Building back in the 1940s, and though the occupants of the plane died, the fire was put out and the building repaired without too much difficulty.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:51 AM

As I recall, it was the tremendous HEAT created by the fuel that caused the failures of those structures. No one had anticipated that much heat. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

Bob, I meant that in the planning stages for the towers they did discuss planes hitting the buildings, but passed on that as something that could actually bring them down. I don't remember why they thought it wouldn't really be a problem. Maybe they were assuming the tanks would be nearly empty rather than full of fuel? You are correct, it was the heat from the fires that softened the steel supports and let the floors pancake down.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 10:33 AM

The twin towers were constructed to withstand a direct hit from an airliner available in the mid-60's when they were built. That would be about a Boeing 727.

No one at the time conceived of the huge airliners we have now, or the new fuels that are used in them.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 11:46 AM

I have found it disingenuous in the extreme for the US, or any nation, to think that an airplane hitting even a well-built structure couldn't cause extreme damage.

As early as 1944 much smaller planes than those that hit the World Trade Center buildings (albeit with explosives attached) dove into ships of the US and British navies. "From Oct. 25, 1944 to Jan. 25, 1945 Japanese Kamikazes were able to sink 2 Escort Carriers, 3 Destroyers. They were also able to damage 23 Carriers, 5 Battleships, 9 Cruisers, 23 Destroyers and 27 other ships. There had also been 738 killed and another 1,300 wounded from the result of these attacks." And these were structures capable of self-defense and built to absorb battle damage....

On July 29, 1967 an AIM-7 missile was accidentally launched from a plane waiting, in the midst of a bunch of planes, to take off from the USS Forrestall, then in the waters off Vietnam. The missile struck the A-4 Skyraider of John McCain (yes, that John McCain!) and exploded -- the result was that all of the planes, fueled and armed, burned and exploded. I believe 135 died -- Forrestall was badly damaged and went back to the US for repairs. Again, an example of avgas and planes damaging a structure built to absorb punishment.

There have been other examples....

Then again, perhaps as a group we never learn from history.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:49 PM

The guest-firefighter who came in here early on put so much in perspective so well; but his wording pointed up some of the differences in the definitions and connotations we may bring to the word "heroes". "I wouldn't want to go in..with a hero". I certainly wouldn't want to "go in" with someone who didn't respect the dangers involved enough to exercise all due caution and judgement. Neither would I want to go in with someone who didn't have the guts to remain reliable under the conditions. And I personally couldn't plan to put myself in that position. You could get me "in there" only if I was too blinded by emotion, say driven to get some kid out, to consider what I was doing.
If I embarrass any firefighters, so be it; I consider those who died that day heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 01:09 PM

If the designers and the engineers and the planners didn't anticipate that planes were going to get a lot bigger within the lifetime of the buildings they were just irresponsible fools.

The Towers should not have fallen, not as quickly as that anyway. What was to be expected was that the structure would be badly damaged, and might even need to be demolished. The collapse came because of design flaws, in a design which failed to take account of the possibility of a large aeroplane crashing into it with a full fuel load.

Planes fly over New York. Planes crash sometimes, normally by accident, but they still crash. And when they crash they have to hit something, and in New York that is probably going to be a skyscraper. So when you build a skyscraper, that is one of the things you   design it to withstand.

And they had in fact said that the Two Towers was designed so as to withstand such a collision. You can't blame people for believing them.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 01:20 PM

I'm with frogprince.

Listen, people don't get to call themselves 'heroes'. That's something other people do. Heroism doesn't have a damned thing to do with whether or not you think it's just 'your job'. If you want to claim heroes aren't heroes because they do a thing 'in the line of duty', we're all human beings. I'd like to think that means we can, if we're good humans, consider it our 'duty' to help folks out when they need it and we have the opportunity. We don't all have the opportunity, and we don't all react heroically when we do. Otherwise, there'd be no need of a special word to set apart those who do.


Heroism doesn't have anything to do with the way things 'should have' been. It has to do with how people reacted at the time. I wouldn't have expected the heroes who went into the towers to have a conference with the contractors, demand better communication equipment and gear, etc, before they went. They were faced with a situation: "This is the way it is. Decide NOW. Go in and risk your lives to possibly save some folks, or don't."

I don't care if they died because it was their job to risk their lives. I don't care if they died because they were afraid to defy orders and stay outside. I don't care if they died when they believed they'd be OK. I don't care if they died because of shoulda-beens and shoulda-dones. As far as I'm concerned, those guys were heroes.

I also should say that heroism is based on actions. I don't think a person is a hero because of what he is, but what he does. Firefighters sure put themselves in a position to be tested, though.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:29 PM

When I started this thread, I didn't anticipate where it would lead. Many of you have posted very informative and thoughtful comments. In re-reading this thread, I remembered a heroic rescue I witnessed some years ago:

My fishing partner and I had just pulled into the boat launch on the Skykomish River, at Sultan, Washington, USA. We had hired a professional river guide to help us catch steelhead. As we were unloading the boat at the "take out spot," I looked upstream and saw a horrible scene.

It was summertime and five teen-agers were drifting down the river on inner tubes and cheap plastic boats. They were drinking, and sunburned and mostly tired. As I watched, one kids drifted into a "sleeper," a log mostly under the water. As he passed over, his leg got caught and he went under. We could see one arm flailing above the water.

"Terry," our river guide was still in the drift boat, handing out stuff to us. I yelled at him and pointed at the kid. He told me to shove him and the boat out into the stream.

By himself, he rowed that McKenzie (sp?) drift boat across the strong current, threw a rope on the tree, and single handedly hauled that kid into the boat. He then bagged him a couple of times, threw off the rope and started drifting downstream.

We caught the boat a hundred yards downstream and hauled the kid out of the boat. The medics came and he lived, though I think he lost his foot.

I knew several reporters with my town newspaper and called one of them about this incident. The reporter I called drove out to Terry's house to interview him. Terry turned him down. He said that he didn't do anything special ... "anyone would have done the same."

It's incidents like this, and we all know them, that make me wonder just what the concept of "hero" is all about. It obviously isn't for the person that does the "heroic act." Maybe it's just that all of us "non-heros" want somebody we can look up to?

I dunno? Food for thought, I guess. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST,Laoise Feerick
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:33 PM

McGrath of Harlow states:

>>>Planes fly over New York<<<

Not exactly. As a native of NYC and someone who lost loved ones in the Towers, please believe me when I share the following info with you:

Air-traffic over the Island of Manhattan is restricted to military only and even then, it is rare. One of the reason so many people caught those impacts on film was due to the extraordinary noise the first plane made coming in at the speed it was flying and the fact that folks on Manhattan recognized it as an alien or unusual sound. even when you fly into Laguardia airport in Queens, you fly AROUND Manhattan, not over it, in a very wide circle. COming into JFK, you fly over Jersey and staten Island on approach.

So, no, planes do not fly over New York all the time or even some of the time unless they are Hijacked, woefully off-course or have special clearance. The plane that hit the Empire State Building in the 1940's helped heighten awareness of what could happen if air traffic got too close to the city's highrises. That WAS a military bomber off course in nighttimne fog, BTW.

The Twin Towers WERE built to withstand a direct hit from a large aircraft. The strength of those structures was unparalled. What happened on 9/11 was a unique combination of factors ( the large fuel loads, the dspeed, the angle of impact...) which contributed to the collapse. It was not merely the heat but the tremendous speed that played a role in the amount of structural damage AND in my opninon, it's amazing they stood as long as they did. I could get more specific but it would bore everyone. Suffice to say History Channel has aired at least three different 2-hour documentaries on the building of the twoers, the events of 9/11 and the aftermath that address all these issues in great detail. Their website can hook you up with DVD copies or you can email me and I can send you VHS copies. ([e-mail])

Now, why were SO MANY Firefighters sent up the stairs? It wasn't just to rescue people folks. It was to activiate the various systems in place to aid in the event of a Fire, as well as to help organize and supervise the evacuation. A member of my wedding party just made it out with her life from the South Tower and she described the evac to me in detail. Those firefighters made a huge difference...guiding people away from overcrowded stairwells, directing the flow of foot traffic and reporting on which floors had been cleared..that prevented MORE personnel from going up. Also, remember that the levels BELOW the buildings had to be evacuated too, from the shopping concourse to the subway stations that are part of the complex. Personnel were required to facilitate that. When they finished, they didn't just leave. THey kept helping.

What Firefighters in other towns or smaller cities don't understand is that the Bombing of the Trade Center in '94 provided the City Firefighters with a very good idea of what they would face in the event of a disaster in those buildings. They had training for how to deal with a new event and it's a miracle more weren't killed. Please note some who died had gone done there with the Mayor to "assess the situation" and it's a miracle the Mayor didn't die himself. In retrospect, his decision to run down there with all those important folks wasn't extacly that smart, but boy did it make HIM look like a Hero, huh?

I think it's very easy for some captain in some town to diss the NYFD in hindsight. Part of that comes the natural conceit we all have when we are proud of how we do our jobs and think we could do better but part also comes from the simple horror of the situation and the assumption that for something that bad to happen, SOMEBODY had to screw up. Sometimes, very bad things happen DESPITE everyone's best efforts.    He's right on the hero question...wrong about the NYFD being idiots. Basically, this guy (the fire captain) got caught trying to look important and knowledgeable. I'm sure he's a good guy, he just should know when to quit. His "opinion" is not an informed one because if it were, his criticisms would have been more specific.

stepping off my soapbox now. I hope I managed to avoid poltics here. It irks me that anyone would use what happened to my loved ones, family and friends that day for political gain.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:47 PM

To "guest L.F." I really appreciate your comments. They are very well stated and thoughtful. Isn't it simply amazing just how wise become ... after the fact? Best wishes, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:31 PM

While we're talking heroes....

There's the Pentagon, too, and those who responded there. And the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.

There are plenty of heroes to go around.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heroes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:43 PM

I think I saw those programmes about why the towers collapsed too, and it struck me there were an awful lot of unanswered, and indeed unasked questions. But probably this thread isn't the place to pursue that.

However the point I was making was that so, far as the people in charge of the Fire Service were concerned, they knew that "the Twin Towers WERE built to withstand a direct hit from a large aircraft". Which mean that every effort had to be made to get people out, and somehow find a way of saving the people trapped by fire in the upper part of the buildings.

Sending in the firefighters wasn't reckless, it wasn't a suicide mission, it was the right thing to do, in the circumstances as known. It called for a great deal of bravery, on the part of everybody, but that is part of the job of a firefighter; every day they have to be ready for that call.

It seems to me that when we call someone a hero, we are saying that they have acted in a dangerous or hard situation in a way in which we would hope that we would be able to act, if the situation arose, regardless of whether that was our job or not.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:51 PM

"It seems to me that when we call someone a hero, we are saying that they have acted in a dangerous or hard situation in a way in which we would hope that we would be able to act, if the situation arose, regardless of whether that was our job or not."
Good, McG. Something I've heard a few times over the years, don't know who might have said it first: an idol is someone we look at, and diminish ourselves, thinking we can never be like that; a hero shows us what we can be.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM

"The main thing about being a hero is to know when to die."

"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by."

                                  Will Rogers

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 04:42 PM

Droll, Guest, but also well taken.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 04:55 PM

"It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world, and moral courage so rare."

                                    Mark Twain

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:25 PM

Smart, as it would be from Mark Twain - but not necessarily true. There's a lot of moral courage in the world, it just doesn't get recognised much of the time. There was one example given in this thrrad,just in passing - "...by the way, firefighters' heroes are people with muscular dystrophy".

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:46 PM

I find most of what has been written by the defenders of the "hero logic" to be cheap sentiment. Cliche. Manipulative appeals to emotions about 9/11, instead of asking hard, critical questions and demanding reasonable answers as to why all of it happened, and why these manipulative, cheap emotional displays are being exploited by Rudy G and Dubya.

It has been just those very sorts of cheap, emotional appeals that has resulted in the mindset behind the reactionary passage of the Patriot Act, internment without trial in the US, horrific US violations of the Geneva Conventions on prisoners of war, and worst of all, the abomination that is the war hawk Democratic nominee being passed off as a great statesman for peace.

Fuck the hero crap. Demand legitimate, credible answers about how and why 9/11 went down, and why we are half way around the world slaughtering innocent people who had nothing to do with the attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: When are fire fighters heros?
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM

Well, this thread just went to hell. I'll say goodby now. I enjoyed all your comments until the previous one. Have a good life. Bob