BS: Osama and Iran

Subject: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 01:22 AM

A while back, I mentioned that Al qaeda recruited in Iran and that they were the terrorist branch of the Mullahs. I was shouted down and told I knew nothing about Iran or the different Muslim factions. There is an interesting article in the Washington Times about Osama's connection to Iran. I do not know if the Washington Times is reputable or if this is just another bit of Bush propaganda to justify invading Iran. What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 02:18 AM

The Washingto Times is a conservative paper, and therefore anything it prints must be a lie. If it says it it Thursday, you can be sure that it is not.....

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 05:30 AM

I take it this would be the story - Bin Laden's Iran alliance - by "Richard Miniter the author of 'Losing Bin Laden: How Bill Clinton's Failures Unleashed Global Terror.' "

It reads a bit thin on facts and heavy on unverifiable allegations -"according to a former Iranian intelligence officer I interviewed in Europe, bin Laden asked for Iran's help...Two intelligence sources told me..."

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:22 AM

But then, McGrath, a huge amount of what we read about Iran/Osama/Afghanistan/Guantanamo/Saddam/etc. ad nauseam is thin on facts and heavy on unverifiable allegations - many of them replicated here in the Mudcat BS section and passed off by their posters as 'God's Honest Truth'. And many of the posters on Mudcat's BS section choose to accept them as gospel (albeit selectively, depending on their own personal agenda)!!

I think Dianavan and I probably agree on this one - there's very little you can believe in this unholy (and I use that word quite deliberately) mess, except that most of what we're told is unverifiable and probably a lie.

Sad innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 08:35 AM

As for the "Washington Times" it is owned by Rev Sun Moon and is altra conservative. Suring the Clinton Administration it ran at least on negative headline and article about him every single day of his presidency.

I am amazed tthat it is frequently used as a news source on C-SPAN but, ya' never know, this article might be factual. Then again it might be another example that "a little learning is a dangerous thing".

Sorry, d, but that's the way I see it with that poor excuse for a newpaper. It ain't got no credibility with me...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 10:32 AM

The basic rule is that, when we cite a source, whenever possible we give people reading it a chance to access that source. And before we pass on information we check back on where it comes from. The Internet is seething with pseudo-information, but it's also got enormous amounts of well-founded stuff. We have to learn to use it.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 11:59 AM

Well, we *do* *know* that Iran sponsors anti-American terrorism, so let's just say I wouldn't be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:28 PM

The Washington Times is owned by the Moonies (Reverand Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church). The stated goal (stated in the Moonie's own website) of the Rev. Moon is the elimination of democracy in the US and around the world, and the eventual replacement of all democratic governments in the world with a totalitarian government headed by none other than the Rev. Moon himself.

I view everything that is put in any of his publications, as well as any news item that comes through his news service (United Press International) with this in mind. With his goal being as I've stated above, how does this particular piece of news (or propaganda, as the case may be) help him accomplish his stated agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 02:22 PM

Dianavan,

It is possible that the Iran/ AlQuaeda connection has about as much to do with each other as Iraq and 9/11.

Al Quaeda as I understand it is not beholden to any nation state.
It has been financed in Saudi Arabia and probably other Muslim countries but their raison d'etre is to drive American or any other foreign troops from what they consider to be their Muslim lands. It comes from the Mujahadeen formed in Afghanistan to defeat the Russians. It has to do with the concept of the Crusades which has a long history in that It's one theocratic viewpoint in conflict with another.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dunkel_esel
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 02:34 PM

I reckon this thread is full of people with pseudo info

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 02:44 PM

Actually, we have real info on Iran and terrorism against the US; there was a lot of testimony about it recently in the legal cases where survivors of terrorism, either people who were attacked or kidnapped but didn't die or people whose relatived did die in such an attack or kidnapping, are suing the sponsors of terrorism thanks to recent legislation allowing such suits. Look up the cases, try Scicippio (sp?) or that hostage guy whose name escapes me. Most of them are v. the Government of Iran. And since several adminstrations by now have tried to STOP such suits, even Clinton, the cases had to be made very well. You can also look for the Damerell et al case, which is ongoing now but hasn't been decided yet (well, the culpability of Iran has been proven; whether the litigants get anything is what hasn't been decided yet).

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 03:40 PM

Unification Church home page

Projects Initiated by Rev. Sun Myung Moon (Unification Church website... includes the Washington Times newspaper)

An Introduction to Life and Teaching of Sun Myung Moon (Unification Church website)

Excerpts:

Jesus Christ Appears

On Easter morning in 1935, Jesus appeared to the 16-years-old Moon as he was praying in the Korean mountains. In that vision, Jesus asked him to continue the work that he begun on earth nearly 2,000 years before. Jesus asked him to complete the task of establishing God's Kingdom on earth and bringing His peace to humankind.

The young Korean was stunned by this encounter, and especially by the request that had been made of him, and at first he refused. However, after deep reflection, meditation and prayer, he finally pledged his life to that overwhelming mission.

After personally accepting Jesus' call, the young man set out to discover its very meaning. If Jesus called him to complete his mission, it meant that Jesus' mission was incomplete...

...By 1945, he had organized the teaching which cane to be known as the Divine (or Unification) Principle. The Divine Principle, the fundamental teaching of Rev. Moon and the Unification Church, is outlined in the following pages...

...Because Adam and Eve did not fulfill God's ideal, and because Jesus was prevented from bringing God's kingdom on earth (as a result of being rejected by his contemporaries), the Messiah will come again as the physical third Adam to complete Jesus' task. Since the Messiah is to be the example of perfected individuality- thereby fulfilling the first blessing - he must be born on earth, as were Adam and Jesus. To fulfill the second blessing, he must marry, and establish an ideal family with his bride. He must also, in a practical way, guide humanity in overcoming the conflicts between nations, races, religions and cultures, finally bringing about a world of lasting peace...

...Because Adam and Eve did not fulfill God's ideal, and because Jesus was prevented from bringing God's kingdom on earth (as a result of being rejected by his contemporaries), the Messiah will come again as the physical third Adam to complete Jesus' task. Since the Messiah is to be the example of perfected individuality- thereby fulfilling the first blessing - he must be born on earth, as were Adam and Jesus. To fulfill the second blessing, he must marry, and establish an ideal family with his bride. He must also, in a practical way, guide humanity in overcoming the conflicts between nations, races, religions and cultures, finally bringing about a world of lasting peace...

...The Divine Principle teaches that the Lord of the Second Advent was born around 1920 in Korea. But as with Jesus 2,000 years ago, he can expect to meet persecution and misunderstanding. In fact, Jesus himself warned of this when he asked: "When the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

Part 4: The Completed Testament Age Return to Homeland (Unification Church website)

True Parents

On August 24, 1992, Reverend Moon completed his forty-year wilderness course. At a gathering of 1,000 world leaders at the World Culture and Sports Festival, Reverend Moon declared that he and his wife are the Messiah and True Parents of all humanity. This marks the beginning of the Completed Testament Age. Mrs.. Moon has given a fitting description of the meaning of the Messiah and the True Parents.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the Messiah? The Messiah is
    the True Parents of humankind. God's original plan was to
    establish perfected Adam and Eve as the true ancestors of
    humanity. Satan, however, invaded this ideal, and God, ever
    since, has been working toward the emergence of ideal True
    Parents through which all humankind can be restored. As true
    fathers and true mothers ourselves, we must vanquish Satan,
    liberate humanity and build the kingdom of Heaven on earth.
    As God's sons and daughters we must inherit God's love, life
    and lineage. Moreover, we must also inherit True Parents' love,
    life and lineage. Then we will have achieved unity between
    heaven and earth, vertical and horizontal, and mind and body.
    This will be the starting point for the eternal world of peace.

The Way To World Peace

This is in God's plan. From this time on, the definition of "my country" will expand. Although everyone has their home country where their family lives, in a larger sense, the world now becomes "my country" because it is where God, my Father, and my brothers and sisters -- all the people of the world -- live.

The Internal Mission: Complete Salvation

This family of disciples was the foundation upon which the holy wedding, the marriage of the Lamb foretold in the Book of Revelation, could take place. On March 16, 1960, Reverend Moon was blessed in holy marriage to Hak Ja Han. This marked the beginning of the restoration of humankind back into God's lineage. By the power of God and sacrificial love, Sun Myung Moon and Hak Ja Han established the position of True Parents. They are the first couple to have the complete blessing of God, and to be able to bring forth children with no original sin.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 03:58 PM

I remember the Bush administration praising Iran for the cooperation it received from Iran in hunting Al Qaeda during the aftermath of 9/11. Then came the "axis of evil" speech. Ya need a freaking program to know who the designated enemies are.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 04:56 PM

"Well, we *do* *know* that Iran sponsors anti-American terrorism, " You may well be right - but why not give your sources?

When it comes to kidnapping people and hiding them away in ratholes, the US Government are pretty well versed - for example

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 05:36 PM

On Jan 14, 1974 Jesus appeared to me also, but I just told him that I wasn't interested. But he did take a toke or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 05:53 PM

You too, eh, Martin? Very cool! :-) I met St Michael the Archangel once, but he did not suggest in any way that I should be the Messiah (you will be relieved to know....). Nor did he mention you or Reverend Moon. But then, I didn't ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 05:57 PM

Is Reverend Moon related to Keith Moon?

Did Reverend Moon ever shoot a moon from a car as in pressed ass on glass?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:24 PM

McGrath of Harlow - I did. Read a little farther down in the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:51 AM

Thanks for clueing me in about the Washington Times!

If this is any guage, I would say that the conservatives would definitely justify invading Iran in order to search for Osama.

Not that they'll ever find him.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:16 AM

Little Hawk, I suppose you knew he was St Michael from the label in his shirt?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

Are Moonies worse that Scientologists?



Puck

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: saulgoldie
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:35 PM

I think so, Puck. For a spell, they were on almost every street corner in DC. And they STILL command a "legitimate" newspaper printed in the capitol of the most powerful nation in the world. And his followers follow so blindly and do EVERYTHING he tells them to. As for Scientology, isn't the founder, L. Ron Hubbard dead? It is hard to rule from that state of existance.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

Depends on the belief system, Goldie -- Hubbard taught that the state of conscious and intentional reincarnation was a possibility, given sufficient awareness of one's nature as a spiritual being. From that point of view, a follower would say he is very much alive, whatever he may be doing. But not ruling Scientology, that's pretty sure. If they figgered they had him back you would have heard about it, I guess!! LOL

A

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:00 AM

I flushed one out.

P

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:00 AM

My take on Scientology is that it's more of a business than a religion. I know that many organized religions are businesses as much as anything else, but it seems to me that Scientology is more overtly so than most, if not all the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:10 AM

If we are going to position Iran on the axis of evil, it is a good idea to know what we are addressing. Here is an article by an American woman who recently spent some time there:

An American Woman in Iran.

Every I ranian I have met -- less than 20 -- has been a kind and honorable person.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 12:34 PM

Amos - Lovely article.

Every Iranian I have ever met has been a kind and honorable person and I can assure you that I do not believe they are part of the axis of evil.

I do know that if you are a traditional Muslim, Iran is probably a great place to live. If, however, you happen to belong to a minority, it is repressive, to say the least.

I also know that when the Mullahs first gained power in Iran, the boys in school were heavily influenced by recruiters for terrorist organizations, including Al Qaida. Schoolboys were given little gold keys which would assure martyrs of their entry to paradise where they would be greeted by the dancing virgins.

If you are not in university, you must serve in the Iranian army. Once a boy reaches the age of fourteen, travel outside of the country is forbidden. I realize that the Iranian army is not a terrorist organization but I also believe that when you are brainwashed by religion at an early age, forced to serve in the military and then enter a society governed by religious fundamentalists, it is a recipe for fanaticism.

The fact that terrorist organizations are allowed to recruit in the schools, is enough to alarm any educator.

Makes you wonder if Bush isn't the best student the Mullahs have ever had. Seems to me, Bush is following the same recipe.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:54 PM

"I also know that when the Mullahs first gained power in Iran, the boys in school were heavily influenced by recruiters for terrorist organizations, including Al Qaida."

That must have involved some pretty nifty footwork on the part of Al Qaeda.

Here's a timeline for the organisation from the BBC, and it gives it as being set up in 1988, when the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan, at a time when Bin Laden was seen by Western Governments as a throughly good chap.

"When the Mullahs first gained power in Iran" would mean, I take it, when the Shah fled, and the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power, which was in 1979.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:20 PM

You're right, McGrath. I probably have the timeline mixed up. The source I have was in school after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power and after Al Qaeda was formed. That would mean that recruitment took place after 1988.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:23 PM

That does not exclude recruitment prior to 1988 for other terrorist organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:19 PM

Such as the groups fighting the Russians in Afghanistan with extensive American backing.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:06 PM

But I'd have thought that from 1980 to 1988, the main focus would have been on encouraging boys to get ready to fight in the Iran Iraq war, and to see death in that as being "martyrdom", and, as such, a fate to be welcomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:40 PM

To return to the original question; given that Bin Laden is a Sunni from Saudi Arabia and Iran has a Shi'ite government, it's unlikely. When tension is low, the two can get along fine. Just now, tension is very high.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:47 PM

Right again, McGrath - "But I'd have thought that from 1980 to 1988, the main focus would have been on encouraging boys to get ready to fight in the Iran Iraq war, and to see death in that as being "martyrdom", and, as such, a fate to be welcomed."

Just the same, who were the recruiters? Are you saying that they were army personnel? From what I have heard (personal accounts) the Iranian army and terrorist groups in Iran had the same fertile recruiting grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:57 PM

Right again, McGrath - "But I'd have thought that from 1980 to 1988, the main focus would have been on encouraging boys to get ready to fight in the Iran Iraq war, and to see death in that as being "martyrdom", and, as such, a fate to be welcomed."

Just the same, who were the recruiters? Are you saying that they were army personnel? From what I have heard (personal accounts) the Iranian army and terrorist groups in Iran had the same fertile recruiting grounds. The only big difference was that the terrorists seemed to attract the volunteers. The army got what was left.

If you were a young Iranian Muslim, would you rather fight another Muslim or the infidel?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:58 PM

Interesting that Osama is a religious zealot, if he is a Sunni. Sunnis are much more secular than the Shi'ite, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:10 PM

Osama is a Wahhabist Sunni; about as zealous as you can get. The Shi'ites do their best to keep up, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:45 PM

Iran is a unique country. It has plenty of secular and non-Islamic roots as well as a strong Shiite strain of Islamic faith, the Shiites being a fraction of the population of Sunnis in the world. Iran is quite consciously non-Arab, there is a good chance that many feel that culturally they are superior to Arabs (and a good deal of the rest of the world) due to a long existence as a world power and cultural center. Jainism and Zoroastrianism go way back in Iran.

Unfortunately, the long memory of Iranians works against the US and Gt. Britain because of a little problem back in the 50's where we subverted their government. They're still a little teed off about it. A pretty interesting book about it "All The Shah's Men" came out in '03. Many Americans are unaware of the events, but few Iranians are.

Modern Iran is full of a fresh generation of people who are almost literally chafing at the bit to be more democratic and secular. They are held in check by a government in which religious mullahs have strong veto powers pertaining to who may sit in government.

I think that the perception of the US in Iran may change for the better over time, but there are few ways we can improve on it other than by staying well away and wishing them good luck. If they wish to go nuclear, and they do, I don't think there is a way to stop them.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:51 PM

As for being cosmopolitan, remember the first acts of the religious police when the shah was deposed; all booze was poured down the drain, known prostitutes were shot, and IIRC known homosexuals were shot also. Today a woman in a burkah who shows a little ankle or too much wrist will be fined and may be beated. Young couples who walk down the street together can get into serious trouble. Hardly cosmopolitan.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:13 AM

Robo - You are absolutely right about this, "Iran is quite consciously non-Arab, there is a good chance that many feel that culturally they are superior to Arabs (and a good deal of the rest of the world) due to a long existence as a world power and cultural center."   

If you have ever confused a Persian for an Arab you will certainly hear about it!

To most Iranians, Arabs are quite dispicable, uncouth and definitely uncivilized. They don't think much of North American culture, either.

I also agree that young Iranians want to be more secular and I believe that, in time, they will be. The memory of the Shah is still a little too fresh in their parent's memories to allow them to embrace any meddling by the U.S. and Britain. The Mullahs were their answer to widespread corruption. Wouldn't it be great if they could find a happy medium?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:21 PM

It is the Sunnis who are more fundamentalist, and have traditionally held political control in Iraq, in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and have persecuted other forms of Islam in many countries.. The Wahabis are an extreme branch of Sunni muslims, and its their influence that created both the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Islam has sought to control countries by creating dominant religious groups across the middle east, by so doing lifting religion as a uniting culture above nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:22 AM

Dianavan, as one of the people who "shouted (you) down" in your previous thread, I do commend you on your seach for the truth in this matter. But the "terrorist recruiters" thing... It's just lame. Where are you getting this information? Because if they're telling you that Sunni, Shia-hating al Qaeda is or was recruiting in Shia-run Iran (before, as has been pointed out, al Qaeda even existed), they're lying, and thus not a reliable source of information. Consider that your "source" may be full of shit.

You don't find many Iranian terrorists. Terrorism is a product of certain conditions, conditions that are not widespread in Iran. The people who might become terrorists were they to be oppressed and made unhappy are currently in power, and quite happy about it. And, as I believe I've mentioned to you before, the one and only Iranian group labeled "terrorist" by the US government happens to be anti-Iranian government.

Besides, strapping on a bomb-belt and blowing up a café is just not Iranian style. Seriously, I challenge you to name even one Iranian suicide bomber. One.

Do keep searching for the truth, though. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:13 AM

I challenge you to name even one Iranian suicide bomber.

Hossein Fahmideh, in the Iraq/Iran war.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:24 AM

Hah, technically correct, Wolfgang, in that young Fahmideh did blow himself up along with that tank. I think it's fairly obvious that I was referring to terrorist suicide bombings, but, hey, I should've clarified anyways. Thanks. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 01:17 PM

Turks names suicide bomber as Iranian

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:33 PM

Eh, another weak example, Wolfgang. In this case, the bomber was apparently an Iranian Kurd, and the bombing was part of a series of attacks after the arrest of Abdullah Öcalan. As a PKK member or sypathiser, the bomber would have been a Kurdish nationalist, and unlikely to've considered himself "Iranian."

Also, as it was an attempt on the life of the governor of Turkey's Hakkari province, it was an assassination attempt, not a terrorist act.

So, a Marxist rebel attempting to assassinate a provincial governor in Turkey... Not really what were talking abvout here, is it? And you had to go all the way back to 1999 to find even that. Do keep searching, though. I have faith in you. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:00 PM

Rather as if in a discussion about suicide as a political act Bobby Sands and his comrades were cited as evidence that this was a British phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:08 AM

one Iranian suicide bomber
has now become 'Iranian but no Kurdish suicide terrorist but not when it's an assassination attempt'.

In a televised conference in Salahaddin, Southern Kurdistan, the head of Kurdistan Intelligence Masrour Barzani said that their security forces arrested 8 individuals belonging to different terrorist groups, Ansar Al-Sunnia and Al Qaeda in Arbil. Barzani said that These individuals were responsible for cooperating with an Iranian suicide bomber named Ali and a Saudi who exploded themselves killing a number of civilians. Mr. Barzani added that the confessions of the terrorists will be televised soon. Kurdistan Observer (September 8, 2005)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:15 AM

Damn, Wolfgang, I hope that this is all part of an attempt to prove my point that suicide bombings against civilians aren't an Iranian thing. A single blurb in the "Kurdistan Observer," which appears to be a Kurdish nationalist newsletter on someone's personal web site, with Masrour Barzani (Massoud Barzani's kid) talking about an "Iranian" suicide bomber (Ansar al-Sunnah: also likely a Kurd) with promises of televised confessions. Nothing about this elsewhere? And nothing about it for the last month? I mean, Iranian suicide bombers in Iraq? That's HUGE news! And nothing? Hmm.

So, still no real evidence from a reliable source. All you've proven is that Iranian terrorists are almost completely, if not entirely, unknown. Thanks! But, hey, if you're having fun, Google your little heart out, dude. I'd love some more "evidence." Maybe an anecdote in the local gossip column of the Zeke's Holler Gazette, related to the columnist by the cousin of this guy Fred who met this guy from Iraq or Iraq or something like that, who says "Iranians or Iraqis or something is suicide bombers."

Oh, yeah: And no, assassinations of government officials are not generally considered to be terrorist acts. And no, I wouldn't call a Kurdish separatist born within the borders of Iran an "Iranian," necessarily. No more than I'd call a Chechen separatist a "Russian." Again, your desperation to find any Iranian "terrorist" shows the weakness of your position.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:24 AM

US may help Iranian terrorist group, June 2 2003, By Julian Coman
Washington, Damian McElroy Istanbul

Senior Pentagon officials are proposing widespread covert operations against the Iranian Government, hoping that dissident groups will mount a coup before the regime acquires a nuclear weapon. The controversial plan involves offering financial and military backing for a terrorist organisation that is outlawed by the US State Department, as well as intelligence collaboration and other support for dissident student bodies and resistance groups. Influential Pentagon figures argue that the terrorist status accorded by the US to the armed Mujahideen e Khalq group in 1997 should be removed, allowing the group - which has been based in Iraq - to play a similar role to the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.

The armed group, whose ideology blends Islam and Marxism, has regularly mounted armed incursions into Iran against the regime and was previously funded by Saddam Hussein. Its camps within Iraq were bombed by the US military during the recent war until a ceasefire was arranged. Last week, The Age revealed Iran had suggested a deal via Australian officials, involving Tehran taking tougher action against senior al-Qaeda figures in return for a "reciprocal" US crackdown against the group. Tehran is worried about US support for the militant group, although officially the US says it is disarming and disbanding its forces in northern Iraq.

The group's military expertise and discipline has impressed the Pentagon, which has suggested it could be renamed and operate with clandestine American help. "We want a regime that reflects the will of the Iranian people," a senior Administration official said.

Douglas Feith, the under-secretary for policy at the US Defence Department, said that since the group had not aimed at Americans or American interests since the 1970s, it need not stay on the State Department's list of terrorist organisations. But the State Department feels it would appear hypocritical for the US to remove the group from the terrorist list on the ground that it could be useful to America's aims in the Middle East.

The proposals will be discussed by US President George Bush and his cabinet. Hardliners in the US have long believed that, unlike Saddam in Iraq, Iran's unpopular religious rulers are vulnerable to an internal revolt that would effect "regime change" from within.
Revelations that the recent al-Qaeda bombings in Saudi Arabia may have been planned by cells operating in Iran have strengthened the Pentagon's resolve to exert greater pressure on Iran.

Last week, an Iranian opposition group suggested Iran had built a uranium-enrichment plant.

- Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:26 AM

Iran News   Oct 1st, 2005

NCRI Iraqi based Iranian terrorist group: "Iran making 5,000 nuclear centrifuges"
Sep 13, 2005


Iran is making 5,000 centrifuges that can be used to produce enriched nuclear fuel for weapons and almost two-thirds of the machines are ready for use, an Iranian terrorist group with so many false names (names like NCRI, MEK, MKO and 'Iran Focus') and hated by Iranians of all kinds of life with their base in Iraq, said on Tuesday. The National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI) terrorist group, which has reported false information about Tehran's nuclear programme in the past, is the political wing of the militant People's Mujahideen Organisation (MKO) and is listed by the U.S. State Department as a terrorist organisation.

"In order to enrich uranium to weapons grade, the Iranian regime has been concentrating on ... manufacturing some 5,000 centrifuge machines," Ali Safavi, an NCRI terrorist group member, told a news conference in Brussels.


© Iranian.ws

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:28 AM

Iran furious at ceasefire deal with terror group

Dan De Luce in Tehran
Thursday May 1, 2003
The Guardian

Iran expressed outrage yesterday at a US ceasefire agreement with an Iranian resistance group based in Iraq that has been named by Washington as a terrorist organisation.
The ceasefire deal between the US military and the Iraq-based Mojahedin Khalq Organisation (MKO) allows the group to keep its weapons.

"In the wake of the terrorist attacks in the US, Washington was portraying itself as anti-terrorist, but it entered into a deal with a terrorist group which they have nurtured and given a safe haven in Washington," said the head of the powerful expediency council.

The agreement, signed on April 15 but only confirmed this week by US central command, allows the MKO to keep its armed camps in Iraq, purportedly to defend itself against Iranian-sponsored troops. The rebels have agreed to refrain from hostile acts against US forces and to place their artillery and anti-aircraft guns in "non-threatening" positions.

The MKO, which has conducted bombings and assassinations against Iran's leaders, has been designated a terrorist group by Washington, but has allies in the US Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 01:26 PM

"Influential Pentagon figures argue that the terrorist status accorded by the US to the armed Mujahideen e Khalq group in 1997 should be removed, allowing the group - which has been based in Iraq - to play a similar role to the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan."

Gee, We all know how well that worked out don't we?

And doesn't this sound alot like what we did for the Kurds after Desert Storm? Take action - we'll back you up! - Psyche!(that means fooled you! if you don't ken)

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 02:51 PM

This just in...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4312516.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:41 AM

your desperation to find any Iranian "terrorist" shows the weakness of your position (Lepus Rex)

You've made me smile, Lepus. I have not taken any position here yet.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 03:50 PM

Eh, you got me there, Wolfgang. :)

Anyways, whatever our positions, I think we can all agree that al Qaeda did not go back in time to recruit suicide bombing terrorists from Iranian grade schools. Or, if they did, they were spectaculary unsuccessful.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: DougR
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 04:06 PM

Bobert: "it ain't got no credibility with me..."

And the fact that it is identified as a conservative leaning newspaper hasn't got a darn thing to do with it does it bobert? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:06 PM

Welcome back Doug!

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 12:18 AM

O.K., I'll change my statement from, "...when the Mullahs first gained power in Iran, the boys in school were heavily influenced by recruiters for terrorist organizations, including Al Qaida."

to:

While the Mullahs were in power, schoolboys were heavily influenced by recruiters for terrorist organizations, including Al Qaida.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: DougR
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 12:09 PM

Thank you Kevin.
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 12:20 PM

Seriously? You still stand by that? Despite no evidence other than unsubstantiated hearsay from an avowed enemy of the Islamic Republic of Iran (we are talking about your daughter's boyfriend, right?), and nothing but strong evidence to the contrary?

OK. Let's say you're right. So... what happened? All those impressionable school children, putty in the hands of wicked, *sigh*, "al-Qaeda" recruiters, and still, no Iranian terrorists? What gives? Shouldn't we have heard of at least one guy named Keyvan blowing up a passenger train by now? At least one one girl named Manizheh driving a truck-bomb into a synagogue? But nothing, after all these years? How do you explain that?

You will never learn anything, dianavan, so long as you arrogantly refuse to admit the possibility that you could be wrong. You're making a fool of yourself with these claims. Once again, educate yourself, and do something useful.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 01:02 PM

Two quite different views:

Official Launching of New Suicide Terrorist Organization in Iran

(Well, the one Iranian exile I have talked to about this would agree with most of that statement)

The Logic of Suicide Terrorism (interview with Robert Pape)

If Islamic fundamentalism were the pivotal factor, then we should see some of the largest Islamic fundamentalist countries in the world, like Iran, which has 70 million peopleâ€"three times the population of Iraq and three times the population of Saudi Arabiaâ€"with some of the most active groups in suicide terrorism against the United States. However, there has never been an al-Qaeda suicide terrorist from Iran, and we have no evidence that there are any suicide terrorists in Iraq from Iran.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: pdq
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 01:33 PM

...from Wolfgang's first link...


Quotes from Ayatullah Khomeini:

"…Those who say Islam is NOT a religion of war and that Islam must not kill people, do not understand Islam. The Koran says war! War! Meaning those who follow the Koran must continue the war until evil is taken out from the
world. War is a blessing for the whole world and it is a blessing from God for any nation in any environment that it may be. Why do you constantly read the verses about mercy in the Koran and ignore the verses about killing(war)?"

"We are after killing the corrupt roots of Zionism, Capitalism and Communism in the world. We have decided, with the blessing and grace of God, to destroy the systems built upon these three bases…"

"Today, East and West know very well that the only force that is able to sweep them from the scene in Islam… Our officials should know that our revolution is not confined to Iran. The revolution of the Iranian people is the starting point of the great revolution of the Islamic world… One more time I am asking the high officials of the Islamic Republic system not to be afraid of any one and any thing except the great God, tighten their belts and refrain from abandoning the struggle and Jihad..."

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 09:08 PM

Lepus - You should read the first link provided by Wolfgang and then tell me that you do not think that the martyrdom was encouraged in the schools of Iran when the Mullahs gained power.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 12:51 AM

From GlobalSecurity.org:

The Qods (Jerusalem) Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) is responsible for extraterritorial operations, including terrorist operations. A primary focus for the Qods Force is training Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups. Currently, the Qods Force conducts training activities in Iran and in Sudan. The Qods Force is also responsible for gathering information required for targeting and attack planning. The Pasdaran has contacts with underground movements in the Gulf region, and Pasdaran members are assigned to Iranian diplomatic missions, where, in the course of routine intelligence activities they monitor dissidents. Pasdaran influence has been particularly important in Kuwait, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 07:06 PM

Is there any hope or any news saying that Osama might have been killed in the earthquake over there? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:05 PM

Iran has banned foreign films that might threaten Islam values. I found the official collection of what is seen as threatening quite interesting:

alcohol and drugs, secularists, liberals, anarchists and feminists

With this particular list of enemies why can't they be better friends with the present US government?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 05:19 PM

You're right lads.
All my life I've dreamed of a Scottish republic, where we can regain a bit of national pride.
Where we we can see our people as a complete nation and live in peace.
For centuries our young men have died in Engish wars and our once proud people now reduced to a dispirited benefits ridden underclass.

As you pointed out above some folk cant separate religion and politics Republicanism dosn't mean Catholisism, but this perceived link has been used extensivly in Scotland, which has now become a sectarian swamp, every small village in the west having a branch of the Orange Order stirring up hate.

And the terrible thing is they're full of young people, infected by the "old team"

Good luck to you in you're hopes for peace, and I'll add my hopes to see your Island united, never again to feel the shame of bigotry or second class citizenship in your own land.......Atheist Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 05:20 PM

Sorry ...Wrong thread...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 04:41 AM

"While the Mullahs were in power, schoolboys were heavily influenced by recruiters for terrorist organizations, including Al Qaida."

Get this learned off by heart: fundamentalist Sunnis, and particularly Wahabis, hate Shias as much as they hate Yanks. Al Qaida could not, and would not, recruit among Shias.

However, Iranian Kurds are mostly Sunni, and also desire independence from Iran. It's quite probable that AQ have been recruiting there, as they were among Kurds in Iraq before the war- this was used ludicrously to prove collusion between Saddam and AQ when in fact it was evidence of the opposite. You can't blame the odious Iranian government for their enemies' actions. But to Americans, all ragheads are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 09:33 AM

an interesting article about Iran:

a whispered message from Isfahan (from: GUARDIAN)

If you see it at first hand, you will have no doubt that this is a very nasty and dangerous regime. ...
let's have none of those confused and/or dishonest apologetics on the European left that, out of hostility to American policy, try to pretend that the other side (Pol Pot, Brezhnev, Saddam) is not half as bad as Washington says it is. ...
Now it's right to say that the Iranian mullahs run a very nasty regime and that it would be a huge mistake to bomb them....
many Iranians, especially among the two-thirds of the population who are under 30, hate their regime much more than we do....
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a reckless leader, but there are many other Mahmouds in Iran. We must listen to them. In the end, it's they, not we, who will change their country for the better.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 10:36 AM

Navid Kermani (Iranian writer living in Germany) in DIE ZEIT:

(my translation)
I’m ashamed for the new Iranian president whose name the news readers hopefully will never be able to pronounce correctly. I’m ashamed for his call to destroy Israel. I’m ashamed for his contempt of the Iranian secular culture. I’m ashamed for his grotesquely bad fitting suits. I’m ashamed for his unclean shoes. Allegedly he even doesn’t wash...No telephone call with Iran in which not a joke about the new president is told. An example? You’re welcome: Why does the new president since recently part his hair in the middle? To separate the female from the male flees. Yes, you’re laughing. I can’t laugh. This man is my president.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama and Iran
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 08:06 PM

well that settles it, if the guys got fleas george and Tony reckon we should march in. save them from fleas, this koran bloke (wasn't he the bloke who did magic tricks with David Nixon , or was that Ali Bongo?).

the important thing is of course that we make a few quid on the deal, so look out for those share options, and make sure its not your kids that do the fighting.