BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'

Subject: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 07:59 AM

I see the BBC has invented a new nationality, 'British-Irish', to describe the Northern Irish woman kidnapped in Afghanistan, and the American papers have picked it up. For goodness sake **sigh**.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 08:54 AM

Since when has Dublin - where Margaret Hassan was born - counted as Northern Ireland?

British-Irish is actually quite a sensible term for people who are entitled to both British or Irish passports, of whom there are a great many. Or Irish-British for that matter. (Anglo-Irish is already taken up to mean something else.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 08:55 AM

I think the woman has dual nationality

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 09:14 AM

Her dual nationality is British-Iraqi.

A

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 09:35 AM

No, no, not Margaret Hassan - you're behind the times, McGrath. I'm talking about an Armagh woman kidnapped in Afghanistan. I see that today the BBC is referring to her as a Northern Irish woman; yesterday they used "British-Irish", and the US papers have picked up this misapprehension.

Here's today's version

and yesterday's

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: s&r
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 09:43 AM

It (the first clicky) makes a statement that 'She carries joint British and Irish nationality.'

My daughter was born in England but has dual nationality - is this not the same?

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:26 AM

Then I'm British Scottish

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:47 AM

And I'm Yellowbelly-British and proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:51 AM

Ahem. What I said was that the second clicky was the original statement.

There is no such nationality as British-Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:55 AM

It is a well known fact that an Irish passport will save you a lot less trouble in many countries throughout the World, [excluding the USA and Britain].

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 12:23 PM

The term "Scotch-Irish" is commonly used in the US to describe the (many) descendants of Ulster Protestants who make up such a large portion of our citizenry, especially of the white Southern working-class population.

I do NOT believe this description is used elewhere (in Ireland or anywhere in the UK) to describe the people of Northern Ireland or any portion thereof -- am I right?

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 12:50 PM

I have put my nationality as "Northern Irish" in the past, but it doesn't seem to work... as for the dual passport thing, I do (or rather, did until recently) have a British passport and an Irish one, but I think there was something about the British passport that said if you held it then you could hold only it and not any other. Can't quite remember what it was... must check it.

PoppaGator - Ulster Scots (Norn iron term) could well be the parallel of your term "Scotch Irish".

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 12:57 PM

Nah, I must have dreamt the last bit about holding only one passport. Oh well, that passport's expired anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:05 PM

I'd assume that British-Irish would be more likely to be used of someone born on, or settled in, the island of Great Britain, who is of Irish nationality or origin. Rather like London Irish.

For people in Northern Ireland "British Irish" it's not really a suitable term, since Ireland is a separate island. They may be citizens of the United Kingdom, but that is a "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The "Great" in Great Britain, it's just a historical way of distinguishing it from Brittany in French - "Grand Bretagne" as opposed to "Bretagne".

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:27 PM

When I was in the army in the 60s, on my ID my nationality was given as British/English, and others in the squad were British/Welsh etc.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 07:29 PM

McGrath, British-Irish has never been used. It's a new BBC coinage, and not a good one.

Ah, Snuffy, maybe that's the source - some army type who wandered into journalism and is bringing the ways of a different profession into the new one; not a good idea either!

No, Scots-Irish isn't used here, Poppa - though it's actually pretty accurate in a way, since the "planters" who were given the land stolen from the Irish in the 16th century and later were mostly Lowland Scots.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 03:35 AM

Snuffy is right, well in HM Forces anyway.

If you were British it was qualified by your birth country, ie.
British English
British Scottish

etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 05:25 AM

Poppagator, 'Scotch' is a delicious beverage made from barley by a process of distillation. Tell a Scotsman that he's 'Scotch' and, if he's in a good mood, he might only slap you - if he's in a bad mood he'll most probably administer a Glasgow-Kiss.

People born in Scotland are 'Scots' or 'Scottish'.

Strollin' McJohnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:23 AM

Ah yes, EricTheRed, but perhaps, in the sense that "Military justice is to justice as military music is to music", military nationality has its own strange rules.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:52 AM

I was only joking, I know that people who are born in Scotland are called Scottish or Scots, can you people not know a joke when you see one. Lighting up for God's sakec and I have never heard the term British-Irish either.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:55 PM

In Ireland, there is a commonly used term to describe people of English descent who were born in Ireland: Anglo Irish. Also in Ireland, when referring to the people of Scottish descent, the term Ulster Scot is often used.

As has been pointed out, in the US, when referring to the Ulster Scot immigrants to the US, the terms Scotch Irish and Scots Irish is often used.

I have never heard the term British Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM

I realize that the word "Scotch" is properly applied only to the whisky, not to the people, but the longtime common American usage, proper or not, is "Scotch-Irish."

The bulk of the original Scotch-Irish population was recruited and moved en masse from the Ulster "planation" to the southern American colonies (Georgia and the Carolinas) not long after the same people (same families, anyway) were picked up from Scotland and installed in the north of Ireland to replace the disposessed original residents. They did not actually spend much time in Ireland -- just a generation, or two at most.

This group overlapped with another large contingent of early Southern white settlers, the "indentured servants" supplied by the English Crown to populate Georgia and, to a lesser extent, the other Southern colonies. These folks were essentially enslaved for a fixed number of years, after which they would be freed. Many were prisoners (including debtors'-prison inmates and political rebels), so this population included plenty of Celtic people ("Irish-Irish," Scots from Scotland, and Welsh as well as "Scotch-Irish") along with a representative number of Anglo-Saxon Brits.

Presumably, the indentured-servant population must have included plenty of native (i.e., Catholic) Irish, but since the Roman Church was not tolerated in the colonies to which these people were shipped, and no priests or churches were available, these new colonists would have become Protestants if they were to practice any religion at all, and would have been assimilated into the dominant Protestant Scotch-Irish community.

Incidentally, I read somewhere that *eleven* US Presidents have been of Scotch-Irish descent (compared to just one with Catholic-Irish forebearers, JFK). I can't name them all, but Andrew Jackson, Woodrow Wilson, and Ronald Reagan are among them. I think that statistic may have been published prior to the inauguration of Clinton, who has ancestors from both the Irish and Scotch-Irish groups, along with plenty of "WASPs" (Anglo-Saxons) as well.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 03:10 PM

"British Irish" is indeed a term I've never come across. My point was that it might be fair enough to describe people settled permanently, or born, in England, Scotland or Wales who are Irish, extending the term to people in Northern Ireland would be extending it inappropriately.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 03:15 PM

Actually poppagator, the vast majority of Irish immigrants to the US prior to the Famine was largely rural, and made up of Ulster Protestants, not Irish Catholics. It was these Ulster Protestants who migrated almost exclusively to the rural south, where they became the "cracker" culture, and gave birth to the Ku Klux Klan.

Irish Catholic immigration was almost exclusively urban during and after the Famine, and was initially limited to the northeastern US (ie Boston, NY, Philadelphia, etc). It was later that these immigrants moved west, building the transcontinental railroad, moving to the stockyards of Chicago, that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 03:24 PM

I just hope she gets out safely. They probably kidnapped her thinking that she was British. Little did they know that the British are not about to save somebody from Ireland.

The media is probably trying to put a little pressure on Britain by calling her British-Irish and hoping that perhaps the British will show some interest in a woman who has, after all, attepted to help the suffering Iraqi people.

d

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 03:34 PM

D, don't fall for the commonly held misconception that the British hate the Irish, it's simply not true. The vast majority of us love Ireland, its people, its wonderful scenery, its music, its eminently drinkable whiskeys and Guinness, in fact everything Irish. We pray for this lady no less fervently than we would pray for a member of our own families.
J :0)

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 04:45 PM

The term Scotch as the nationality was used in the past, and no Glasgow Kiss came with it. The following are from 1897.

SAILING FROM GLASGOW, SCOTLAND:

1. Montagne, Jane age 20; Female; Single; weaver; able to read and write;
      Nationality Scotch; Last Residence Glasgow; Final Destination McDonald Pa;
      yes has ticket to final dest.; ticket paid by father; $10; never in US;
      going to fathers home; [p-t] no; no; no; good; no.

2. Williams, Ann M. age 50; Female; Widow; wife; able to read, cannot write;
      Nationality Scotch; Last Residence Glasgow; Final Destination Philadelphia;
      no ticket to final dest.; ticket paid by daughter; none $; never in US;
      going to daughter's Maggie McWilliams Russell St. Philadelphia;
      146 Rox St. Camden, N.J.; [p-t] no; no; no; good; no.
      Transcriber's note: although the passenger's name is clearly written it
      must be assumed her name is actually McWilliams, Ann as her mother's name
      is written McWilliams.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:42 PM

Strollin' Johnny - I don't think that the British people hate the Irish. I do think, now that the resources are nearly depleted, the British govt. doesn't give a damn about Ireland.

d

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM

I would like to add: If the British govt. gave a damn about an Irish hostage, they might re-think sending the Black Watch into such a 'hot' area of Iraq. In fact, if they give a damn about the British, in general, they would not increase the threat of terrorism by ignoring the threats of ruthless people.

d

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: open mike
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:11 PM

is it then Brirish or Irtish??

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 04:30 AM

Irtish ??

eric

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:35 AM

An Irish passport MUST be southern Irish, a northern Irish passport is a British passport. That is the facts, the rights and wrongs of this have been dealt with ad nauseam on other threads. I do think though that the antipathy while being mutual, is more west to east, than east to west.
The Sea around Us a great song.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:53 PM

An Irish passport is issued by the Republic of Ireland, not "southern Ireland". The Ireland Act of 1949 ensured that any Irish citizen might become a citizen of the UK simply by moving from the Republic to the UK. Since the passage of that act in 1949, and especially since the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act was passed in 1956, the Irish Republic has been granting Irish passports to residents of Northern Ireland who apply for them.

Nonetheless, I have never seen the term "British-Irish" used. One frequently sees the term "Anglo Irish" used to describe Irish citizens whose ancestors are English, the same way one sees the terms "Anglo American" and "Irish American" used for US citizens with English and Irish ancestries, respectively.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:11 PM

Haud a wee Tam the Bam frae Sunny Saltcoats---dinnae be sae worrit aboot the "Scotch" label! ANY label is offensive if it is delivered with a sneer---even "Scottish". I have been dubbed "Haggis-basher", "Porridge-eater", "Scotchman"and even one which describes the Scot's attraction to sheep! Excepting the last one, I wear each label with some pride, and regard the last one with some amusement[ not excitement, I swear!] The mistaken "English" does cause some minor irritation [ye maun allou for a wee-s'nt want o mense], and the name "British" in the present day and age is growing more likely [as is 'American",]to be spoken with a scowl than a smile. And that gives me NO pleasure. I sign off with the name I carried in Northumbria for more than a dozen years--and still welcome it on each return visit.
Yrs Sincerely ---Scotch Boab!

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:08 AM

Scotch is also used for hops.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:32 PM

Hrothgar - Scotch is scotch. Hops are hops. What do you mean?

d

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

Hopscotch

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:27 PM

GUEST of 30 Oct 04 - 03:15 PM :

Yeah, what you said is absolutely right. I don't think I expressed anything different, or at least didn't mean to -- EXCEPT to add the observation that *some* relatively small number of native (Catholic) Irish were almost certainly included among the deported-prisoner population that were sent to Georgia as "indentured servants," and that any who made trip could not possibly have continued to practice Catholicism, but would have assimilated into the Protestant population and effectively become "Scotch-Irish," just like their neighbors.

Like most of those pioneers who settled the hill country -- the fertile lowlands were already allocated to the aristocratic planter class -- any such ex-Catholic types would have been more likely to become Baptists or joined similar "non-conformist" denominations than to sign up with the Church of England.

I just went back and re-read what I wrote. I still *think* I was clear enough in what I was trying to say, but apparently not.

I certainly did not mean to deny, or to argue against, the obvious and well-known fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans who came here from Ireland prior to the 1840s were Protestants, and that the single largest group among them were Ulsterites whose families had only recently relocated from the lowlands of Scotland to northeastern Ireland.

Change of subject:

What about the term "Southern Ireland" -- does anyone find this offensive or ignorant when applied to the Republic or Ireland, or is it generally accepted as OK? It obviously refers to the Republic in contrast to "Northern Ireland," but the Republic occupies the southern, eastern, central, western, and northwestern parts of the island, including the very northernmost section of all, in County Donegal. My first reaction when hearing/reading any reference to "Southern Ireland" is to think of the Waterford/Cork/Kerry area, not the whole country.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

"My first reaction when hearing/reading any reference to "Southern Ireland" is to think of the Waterford/Cork/Kerry area, not the whole country."

I agree. Just as when people say "Ireland" I think of the island as a whole, as a geographic entity, not a geopolitical one.

People really should be using the word "Republic" by now, because it is accurate, not because of any political ax I have to grind. If I had a political ax to grind, I'd refer to the south as...

Let's just be thankful I've no ax to grind, eh?

I just get tired of people, especially the British people who live right bloody next door, not knowing what the hell to call Ireland, north and south. I mean, it isn't like they haven't had proper lead time to learn to say "Northern Ireland" and "Republic" or "Republic of Ireland" now is it? Over half a century later, and they still can't sort it out? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 05:48 AM

Dianavan, what please are the Irish resources that are now depleted?

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:56 AM

Annette Flanagan, from Richhill, Co Armagh, who has dual British-Irish citizenship...

That's how the Guardian put it. How would you say for short in English for someone with a dual citizenship if you want to mention it?
British-Irish or Italian-German (to go away from a danger area for discussions) would be the only choice in German.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:13 AM

Can someone tell Dianavan the name of the Irish journalist who was a hostage in Beirut? The brits flew him to Brize Norton where he was welcomed and treated for the effects of his ordeal for over a week.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

brian keenan.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:32 AM

Wolfgang, thanks for the clarification. Suddenly it all makes sense. The person who originated the thread misread the sentence or misunderstood the context, or is complaining that the Americans picked up on it and used the term incorrectly.

If they were talking about a person who is a citizen of Northern Ireland who has dual citizenship, then "British-Irish" is perfectly acceptable.

But it does beg the question as to why the Guardian and BBC are still making these sorts of distinctions about Northern Irish citizens. It would have been just as correct to simply refer to the woman as a Northern Irish citizen, the same as they would refer to a Scottish or English citizen.

I do wish the Brits would get over this tiresome exercise of a "national" identity crisis. They are much too obsessed with it.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:20 AM

Thanks Guest(11.13)

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: bazza
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:43 PM

calling the people of Scotland scots seems to be a new thing ,old books on history and old dictionarys seem to use the word scotch,any experts out there who can    put me right?

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM

Two passports - two nationalities - correct reporting.

"National identity crisis"? - bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: New nationality - 'British-Irish'
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:30 PM

GUEST 02 Nov 04 - 11:32 AM- you still have not understood.

This woman has two passports, two nationalities, both British and Irish, one because of where she was born and the other that she has applied for for whatever reason, as she was entitled to do.

It does NOT just mean that she is from Northern Ireland.