BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!

Subject: BS: Democrats Lost--Not The Left!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:13 PM

And that's the way I see it! Scroll down here for more insights too.

We on the left are already being pressured to join the Democrats YET AGAIN, after our issues, particularly the war on Iraq, being completely shut out of the Democratic party platform and positions.

Is that the best way for the progressive left to move forward now, with the Democrats STILL silent on the war, including the current assault on Fallujah? Join with the Democrats, and then what?

Or should we leave the Democrats to attend to their own mess perhaps, as it will be months if not years before their house cleaning gets done, and heed the call to instead join with folks like these, whose positions never wavered, never flip flopped?

That's what we've all got to decide now. Who you going to work with now? There is no shortage of work to be done in the coming four years, and it isn't wringing our hands, or ruminating on the 2008 Republicrat annointee...

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:24 PM

From ANSWER's website:

"This is not just Bush's war. The Democrats, including Kerry, complain only that the criminal war has been badly managed. Kerry's program was to bring in other imperialist countries, give them a share of the contracts (also known as the loot) and share the burden of aggression and occupation with others."

Did I mention the majority of Americans, 52%, now think the imperial invasion of Iraq was wrong? That means the majority of Americans are on the side of the progressive left, NOT the Kerrycrats!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:38 PM

Yeah, GUEST, I reckon ANSWER will be crankin' up some activities in D.C. this winter. I got my long johns ready... Brrrrr... That last one in January just before Bush pulled the trigger, was some kinda cold. Brrrrr.

But, I'll be there...

Yeah, the progressives I think came out the winners since the Dems showed to be nuthin' more than Bush-Lite...

Enentualoly the Dems will figure it out. Actually, I wish that most of them would quit and join the Repubs leaving just a few folks in the Dem party to be the charter memebers of the new and improved Dem party...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:40 PM

Well, dingbat, I am a Kerrycrat and like Kerry I believe that the war was the wrong thing to do.

You don't know Kerry's position, or you would not be so adamant about labeling him pro-war.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:36 AM

Amos: I agree with you! No one knews Kerry's position. Maybe if they had, the whiners of today would have been clapping their hands, clicking their heels, and sleeping well at night.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:47 AM

Glad to see you admit there's good reason NOT to sleep well at night, Doug. You're comin' around.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:32 AM

Not to belittle anyone's beliefs, but sometimes terminology across the pond makes me smile. And no doubt the reverse also applies. In this case:

"Progressives? I prefer the McVities chocolate covered ones!"

On a more serious note: Looking from the outside as it were, the bickering between Kerryites and Naderites (Naderthals?) is not a pretty sight. Mainly because it perpetuates battle lines drawn upon party lines. I would have thought it would have been much better for people to align themselves (or disagree) on individual issues - that is what it's all about, surely? As it is, the Republicans must be having a right old chuckle watching their opposition arguing with their eye off the target.

Parties are labels in my book - that's all. I have always voted for someone with whose ideas on specific issues I agreed, not because of the colour of the rosette on their lapel.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:55 AM

Have a pike at this to see an interesting comparison of present day voting patterns in the US with a time some years ago when another touchy subject had a profound effect on the world.

Then vs Now

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:43 AM

Stig, that is feckin' brilliant! Not sure of its relevance, but I think it is great.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:08 AM

There is a whole school of thought that says the current blue/red divide is the present day manifestation of the slave owning south, and the emancipated north. I believe there is something to it, which is a throw back to LBJ signing the Civil Rights Act, and then Nixon adopting the "Southern Strategy". But I think that only really applies to the southern segregationist states, and not the rest of the nation. Which is why I think progressives need to just surrender the south to the racist Republicans, and focus on the Midwest and the West, where those black/white slavery cultural antagonisms really don't exist.

Evntually, once the segregationist south is completely isolated culturally and economically, they will come around and begin to assimilate with the rest of the country. Right now, they have no incentive to do that though. The incentive being given to them is stay the way they are, and be rewarded for it by the politicians and corporate elite that benefit from their being an easy to manipulate voting bloc.

Another reason why I think progressives can just ignore the racist cultual dynamic of the Republican "Southern Strategy" is that it takes attention away from the real issues we need to deal with, including improving the lives of all people of color through improved access to health care, better educational system (as an educator, I can tell you we need to scrap the system and start over from scratch), fairer access to capital to improve their economic prospects and their communities, that sort of thing.

The Republican/Republicrat status quo keeps people poor and dependent--on welfare, the military, and holy roller "faith initiatives" to provide for the barest subsistence level for many millions of people in this country.

Anybody who wants to start talking to those folks about changing their lives will be the new political party.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:15 AM

My life is just fine.

apparently yours isn't.

That's your problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:21 PM

Hey Bobert, maybe I'll see you in DC! I'll be the one wearing t shirt and shorts--we Minnie Sotans save the long johns for 50 below season. DC in January for us is like a trip to the Caribbean for you WGs!

you gotta promise me though, that you will read this rather scathing post-mortem of the election over at CounterPunch titled 'Green Out'.

Now you know for awhile there I was actually leaning Green, because I felt sorry for them. They seemed to need a boost in the Minnesota election (they did really well here in 2000), and for awhile some of my Green friends had me convinced that voting Green wasn't such a silly idea.

Now, I know you are sorta Green to the core, but ole buddy, you may need a core transplant after the last election. See my suggestions in the "Oh God Kerry..." thread for bold new progressive indie ideas.

Cuz Bobert my man, the Greens are lookin' like goners. But hey--they need a place to go, so why not to Naderville?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:15 PM

Doug,

the only reason the public didn't know Kerry's position is that the Right-wing corporate lying media wouldn't allow him to present it and the TV news stations and press shot him down every time they could. After all, follow the money trail. They are owned by Roger Ailes, Rupert Murdoch, GE and other corporate theives (because they are stealing taxpayer money from poor and middle class Americans). The GOP spent millions to throw smear after smear at Kerry and worse, they were lies. What despicable low-life would impugn a man's war record when he risked his life for our country?

Maybe one who never served such as G. W. Bush. Or Karl Rove. Or Dick Cheney. Or Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle and the rest of the chickenhawks.

And now they have the gall and the incentive to hack the election.

And they W wants people to come together and support his insane policies?

Hallelujah brother!

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Lost--Not Progressives!
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:47 PM

I wonder how many corporate products you use everyday, Frank.

Oh, I know. You use light bulbs made by some old hippie folksingers on a commune somewhere.

And the only newspaper you read is the Streetwise being sold by the homeless guy.

Stay out of those corporate grocery stores, Frank.