BS: religious question

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:48 PM

Mabe there is a god, but he's a bit busy at the minute?
ie, mybe he made loads of worlds not just this one? and this one got in a mess, because he is busy loking after other ones? or maybe the budget run out?
the council have got loads of roads, wehn people moan that their bit of road has got holes in it, council say="we got loads of roads to look after, your road is not priority, but we'll have a look at it if we get time", or they say "road budget run out, we might fix it next year".

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: freightdawg
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

As a couple have said already, good question. Uncle DaveO gives the most succinct review of the answers. But, I have a gentle rebuke to the question, and I do hope you accept it as a gentle prod.

Your third statement, "if God is good and loving he must want to stop everything bad" has a huge logical flaw in it. I will make an assumption that you are somewhere in the west geographically (i.e., Canada, US, Europe, etc. I was going to add South America, but more on that in a moment). If so, you have been raised in a culture that praises and seeks after a life free of pain, sickness, sorrow, disappointment, grief and all the other so called "negatives" that life is literally full of. Because "our" concept of "good" eliminates those things, and because we transfer our concept of "good" to our concept of God, we naturally assume that God wants to eliminate everything bad, evil, etc.

This is the mistake of idolatry - creating a god in our image and then worshipping it.

However, this says more of our culture that of our God. Many cultures recognize that these things which we call "evil" are not evil at all, but just manifestations of the whole of life. I am not convinced at all by arguments that state God wanted man to live an idyllic life free of pain and sorrow. If you look at the Judeo/Christian story of creation in Genesis 1-3 you will not find any promise or indication that God had an antiseptic lifestyle in place for Adam and Eve. The closest we come to that conclusion is in regard to the punishment for Adam and Eve rebelling against God, and that is the pain of childbirth would INCREASE (not begin) and that man would have to work with an uncooperative land to earn his living. I am not convinced that even death is the ultimate evil, as my understanding of the context of this passage and my (admittedly limited) understanding of Hebrew indicates to me that the real punishment is not death, but a death in separation from God. I do not think God intended us to be eternal in our physical existance. I think death was in God's plan from the beginning.

You see, much of what we argue with religion (or argue with God, for that matter. I see religion as distinct from faith in God) is not the truth of God, but with our own preconceptions about such. Your own reticence to deal with the question of free will is just an example of that self-limitation. You yourself said that the fall-back to free will limits your willingness to accept much of religion and of God. Well, if you had no free will, you could not even make that choice. See? Many cultures, free of our dependence on self-reliance and the worship of "good," do not have these problems. They have their problems, to be sure, but they are not our existential, selfish, "I must be made happy" kind of issues.

You asked a good question, and it is from the asking of good questions that good answers can proceed. I just ask you to free yourself (as much as possible) from our cultural preconceptions and allow for the truth that what we consider to be evil may truly be evil and it may not be evil. It may just be a sign post God has given us to point to an easier road to walk on.

Sorry for the length of the post. But I do care deeply about this subject.

A very meditative,

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:42 PM

Do you believe there is a God or not...easy really!

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM

Crossposted again. What do I believe about what?

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

Georgiansilver, we crossposted. I was refering to your first post in my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

Carol C you have to believe what you want to believe...we all have our choices. What actually do you believe???????
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

Georgiansilver, you seem to have a very uncharitable (dare I say "unChristian") attitude toward people who believe differently than you (unless you were joking).

I've heard it suggested that God, being basically good but containing evil within himself, got rid of his evil by placing it in another being, which his good side could then defeat.

Which creates a very interesting conundrum. Because when people do this sort of thing (and they do it all the time), they project their own "evil" onto others and then do evil things to the ones onto whom they have projected their concept of evil, thus creating (or perpetuating) evil rather than eliminating or reducing it.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

It's an interesting question, Laura. Actually, I think the answer IS "free will," so how can I use that answer and still follow your rules? I think that's part of the problem - we set up rules for how we thing God should behave, and then we expect God to behave accordingly. I think we also make a mistake if we define faith and religion as systems answers that are imposed upon us, rather than systems of inquiry for exploring and pondering the mysteries that surround us. I think that in faith, the questions are far more important than the answers - and any one question can have a vast number of answers.

I believe in the beauty of the spontaneity of every aspect of God's creation. Creation has infinite possibilities, and that is a primary aspect of its beauty and wonder. In a sense, all creation and all beings are creating themselves - and God is somehow actively bound into that ongoing, infinite process. If creation just played itself out according to a preordained script, would it still have that beauty and possibility and spontaneity, the ability to take part in the act of creation itself?

So, anyhow, I don't want anybody - not even God - writing the script for my life. If I make a few mistakes here and there, maybe that will help me grow in unexpected ways.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm if life were so simple.
God does exist. Jesus lives....how do you refute that????? Prove that he is really not with us!!!!!!!!! Can you????
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:26 PM

There are no gods. If people would just work together and forget all their "petty bickering" (Star Trek reference) we could be AS gods, and survive our planet, which would be way cool, not that I'd be around to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:23 PM

I don't like salt and vingar crisps.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Fishpicker
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:19 PM

"i think if people didn't always have a prepared answer for questions like this (free will! free will!) I would find religion a lot easier to believe in/understand."

Why worry about it??? We are all here, none of us know why, none of us know what happens after we expire! Why not enjoy life and try to keep from worrying about things you don't have any control over or understand. The Buddhists say *be here now* which is good advise IMO. Organized religions are , IMO, in most cases businesses that want to control people and releive them of the burden of their money; they have nothing to do with your connection to God or whatever you choose to call the big picture that our finite minds can't ever seem to comprehend. Just my opinion all you religious fanatics out there so don't get your shorts in a wad.

                               FP

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:13 PM

I am eating an apple at the moment....can any of you taste that apple I am eating.....????????. I am in conversation with Jesus at the moment...can any of you hear that conversation...?????? Can you taste my Jesus..???????
Do you want to hear the conversation...?????
I thought not...you are too busy doing your own thing.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:06 PM

Edward Teller was speaking to an auditorium filled with students at, I think, UCB. At question time, a student put up his hand, was recognized by the chair, and he asked Teller if he believed in God. Teller said he did. The student proceeded to ask the following: "Then, what was God doing before he created the universe?" Teller thought for about ten seconds and replied, "He was dreaming up Hell for people who ask that question."

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:04 PM

Laura, you have just put forth one of the real classic philosophical questions, usually referred to as "The problem of Evil." Philosophers and theologians have wrestled with it for centuries, and I doubt that Mudcatters are going to do any better.

The attempts I've seen at resolving it include:

1. Free will is purposely allowed, even at the cost of evil, in order to allow mankind to reflect their made-in-the-image-of-God power of choice.
2. God is not all powerful (or)
3. God is not all good (or)
4. God, while all good and all powerful, is not attentive--he just doesn't pay attention to us and our actions, so evil in effect goes on behind his back.
5. God is in essence not one but two, one dedicated to good and one to evil, of approximately equal powers. The evil side or evil being is close to the idea of Satan. The idea is that there is a titanic struggle going on, but that the good side will eventually triumph. This is the Manichean heresy, one of the historical heresies upon which the early church nearly split. This idea is embodied in the ancient (and still barely existing) religion called Zoroastrianism.
I've heard it suggested that God, being basically good but containing evil within himself, got rid of his evil by placing it in another being, which his good side could then defeat.

There may be other approaches, but these are the ones I'm familiar with.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:42 PM

The "Question of Evil" is one of the oldest subjects of theological debate, and with good reason. Everybody asks it (especially when they're young adults)!

Believers can't deny that bad things happen -- they have faith that things *ultimately* come to a good end. This usually involves some notion of an afterlife or, at least, the conviction that one can and should transcend (rise above) earthly cares.

I'm convinced that you're better off living as though there were reason for faith -- better than the alternative, which is to proceed with the conviction that nothing really matters. It's not as easy to have believe in Faith for its own sake than it is to believe in an anthropomorphic Santa-Claus-like God, but it's at least possible for a thinking person.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: *Laura*
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:41 PM

In Hitch-Hiker's guide to the galaxy it argues that the very act of god proving himself would prove he doens't exist - becasue he can't exist without faith and if people need proof he exists then they don't have faith. So by proving he existed he would, in fact, be proving he doesn't exist.

This is, according to hitch-hiker, why the earth itself is proof that god doesn't exist. Becasue something so complicated would be proof that God exists, so it is therefore proof that he doesn't.

Or something ike that. I understand where I'm going with this anyway! (I don't have the book here right now - you may have noticed!)

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM

Cheat! I said without googling. Anyway, I asked for the song and artist, you gave neither.

Can't even cheat properly!

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:35 PM

Do you think any of you will all of a sudden find God when you are on your deathbed?

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: skipy
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:33 PM

THE BOATMAN`S CALL (Mute 1997)

THERE IS NO GOD, THERE NEVER HAS BEEN & THERE NEVER WILL BE!

Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM

(without googling it!)

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:26 PM

"I don't believe in an interventionist God"

A slap on the back and a packet of salt and vinegar crisps to the first person who can name the song and artist that first line comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: religious question
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:05 PM

I don't subscribe to any organized religions, but here's what I think about that... let's say you're a parent. What do you think woud happen to your children if you tried to protect them from ever making a mistake of any sort in order to protect them from having to experience the consequences of their mistakes? My guess is that they would never learn anything.

From my perspective, that's what I think we're all here for. To learn and to grow.

Subject: BS: religious question
From: *Laura*
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM

I've got a question - mainly applies to Christians I think but I'm not sure. And it's where religion all falls apart for me.

If God is all knowing - he knows every bad thing happening in the world.
If he's all powerful - he can do anything in the world he wants to.
If he's all good and loving - he must want to stop everything bad.

So, and leave out free-will just for a moment, because even if he did give people free will - if these statements are correct then he knows about everything bad, and he has the power to stop everything bad, and there is no part of him that doesn't want to stop everything bad. so....... why??

i think if people didn't always have a prepared answer for questions like this (free will! free will!) I would find religion a lot easier to believe in/understand.

xLx