BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse

Subject: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:08 PM

All Things Considered spent some 20 minutes on this today. I was shocked to hear the report---and delighted that there is one news outlet that still will spend time to report something in depth.

You can probably hear it on their archives on NPR's website.

Briefly--we have detained people who have "green" cards--legally (under the patriot act). They may have had a traffic incraction ( or more) years ago and we plan to deport them. Until that time they are held in jails (the report talks only of Passaic County jail in NJ) which are paid by the Fed. govt for the incarcaration. Now---the really bad part.

The guards (Passaic Cty) harass and threaten them, sic dogs on them, roust them every night at 2 AM with the dogs. Some have been hospitalized for beatings and dog bites. Abu Ghraib(spell?>) is here--sadly. Here --and it should not have been there either--for an allegedly civilized nation.

People awaiting hearings are handled by sadistic guards---their attorneys (legal aid) are threatened when they come in. Guards get these jobs because, probably, they can do no better and being of a certain psychological bent take it out on the prisoners (detainees).
We could go into who becomes a guard--but that is for another topic.

NPR took over 6 months--they said---to research and air this piece. The warden would not speak with them, the Feds would not speak with them, a PR firm for the prison did---and he had never been there.

Has our Bushworld evolved into letting the inmates run the asylum---something akin to the Brownshirts and the Gestapo.

Geo. Orwell---where are you now to see how it is all coming to pass?

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:28 PM

Yes its getting really wierd Bill.

I was reading an article last night on the use of micro chip brain implants ,to correct "abnormal behavior".

This concept is really Orwellian ,I suppose first it will be used on terrorist detainees,then people with criminal tendancies,addictive problems will be cured instantly.
Then we'll get on to the scary stuff ,political agitation, sexual deviancy,unchristian activities,...Those of us who dont conform to what the regime thinks is right will be chipped and hey presto problem solved.

It could even get to the stage when children of a certain genetic profile could be chipped, creating a ruling elite and an underclass of automaton slaves.

Glad Ill be dead before Orwells vision comes to pass...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:42 PM

Agreed. But I am more concerned by the way we have put laws in place that can put people into the hands of those who have jobs that would usually mean only guarding in a benign way. In other words not trying to escape-- people who have not been convicted of anything. Yet these guards vent and release their own frustrations and feelings of power on the incarcareted populace.

Then they go home---their wives and families frustrate them. They go to work the next day---and here we go again.

I have a friend who is a retired psychologist at Sing Sing. His comments on the guards speak volumes. Criminals are bad---yes. Guards--in general--are not far removed. Their sadism comes from their own life frustrations---not unlike the foremen on slave gangs. Or the SS people in dear old Vaterland.


You really have to start to wonder about human nature. You also have to realize then that slavery was something that was not an anomoly but, rather, a thing that is in human nature. Subverting others.

Bless those of us who really feel that all people are created equal and will punish only those who transgress in violent ways. OK--also the corportate thieves (who steal our faith and society)---but that is another topic.

BIll Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:27 PM

What came out clearly enough in the Abi Ghraib coverage was that some of the practices involved were ones used in US jails, where one of the chief accused had worked.

And I remember a piece in a paper saying that, when we saw the coverage from Guantanamo, we should realise that some of the things outsiders found most dusturbing to see weren't special innovations for Guantanamo - they were standard practice in some US jails.

How people are treated in jail is one way of telling a lot about a country. And most countries aren't too impressive in that respect. I can't remember who said it, but seems true - prisons are places where bad people go and are made worse.

And even when they aren't that bad when they go in, or even not bad at all, it almost inevitably makes them worse. And that goes for the guards too, it seems. I know there are exceptions, but it must be hard not getting ground down and dehumanised.

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:31 PM

Well put!!! McG of H. Now if only the people hired for work there were of a higher caliber---perhaps not psycholically imparaired. The pay and pension should make them happy enough.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:12 AM

Three of my musician friends work in the local prison system. One put in his 20 years mostly as probabion officer then re-upped to the halfway house. He is a good guitarist and has a wide repertoire of songs that none of the rest of us sings, from sonwriters like Shel Silverstein, John Prine, Steve Goodman, Jesse Winchester, Randy Newman. He is a gentle soul, but his eyes are definitely open.

The two others are huge young men, one a Mormon with sweet eyes and five children. The other is a bass player with a big voice.

I have talked at length with all three of these men and I don't believe any of them would entertain the thought of doing what some of those reported out there.

On the other hand, this is a correctional facility in a small town.

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 12:59 PM

That's a bit reassuring. That's how it should be.

These sentences with no room for hope - 20, 30 years with no parole, and life-means-life, must make it extraordinarily hard running a prison.

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Maryrrf
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:57 PM

I do feel that "Bush's America" is disturbing - very disturbing. Things like this NPR report leak out and I don't like what I hear. Not too long ago I was detained by airport security. No big deal, I had nothing dangerous on me nor am I involved with anything remotely suspicious, but the way I was treated bordered on the abusive. This was in an airport out in the open - how would it have been behind closed doors? And they made me FEEL guilty, even though I knew I was innocent. There's something in the atmosphere - I can't quite describe it, that makes me uneasy. What's going on under the surface in this country?

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:32 PM

The reporter I spoke of earlier was interviewed today---he made some interesting and disturbing points.

1) This has been the hardest story of his career to cover. No co-operation whatsoever
2) While some of the detainees had arrests on their records (mostly misdemeanors from years back) they are in the Passaic County jail not as convicted criminals but as detainees awaiting adjudication of the immigration status. This raises the question---why the sadism? Guards just enjoying their superiority?

3)   The rules for asylum, citizenship, green card issuance, etc; have become truly byzantine---and some of this goes back to 1996.

Part 2 will air today on ATC---truly a disturbing matter. Seems like are becoming "them"--

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:56 PM

This article from an Australian prison reform group (Justice Action) describes disturbing practises in Texan jails in recent years, and how these practises are being reflected in other countries. There is another article in the same magazine (on the same link) about the importance of scutiny in public jails.

secrecy breeds abuse - from Texas to Abu Ghraib and from Guantanamo to Goulburn

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 05:03 PM

A correction---today's report focused on Hudson County Jail--Bergen County Jail and the Office of Homeland Security which is paying these prisons---and there are others across the country housing some 20,000 immigrants. A truly frightening scenario---and Homeland Security now says they will investigate---which, I suppose, means you found out and now we will see how to cover this up.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: DougR
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:28 PM

Bill: if there was no "co-operation at all" I can see why it was difficult to report. You don't suppose he/she might have "filled in the blanks" with his/her own interpretation do you?

No one said homeland security was going to be a easy thing.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:36 PM

He spent over 6 months researching this---interviewed the victims and tried to get comments from the prison officials--which were not forthcoming. Hospital records were.   Homeland security said what I stated above--which means, basically, let's let this simmer till it cools off.

Having known some people who have worked at prisons I can believe most of the comments by the reporter---having seen some of the ex-prison guards now working for the Government in places like Cuba and Iraq onoy reinforces that view.   

Don't get me wrong ---I abhor terrorism. That said, I also abhor the thought that our nation is going down the path (if not already there) of becoming---as I said earlier "them".


The people in the report were immigrant detainees-=--not criminals and not POWs. So--why the sadism and the threats. They were merely being held for hearings---not, supposedly, serving sentences.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: ATC report on US detainee abuse
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:23 PM

I worked as a teacher in a Remand Centre for four months prior to working as a teacher for a year in a Maximum Security facility. Jails are not nice places. Most correctional officers are good, and some are on the wrong side of the bars. The crux of the statement, however, is that jails should NOT be closed to public scrutiny. When they are, bad things can and do happen.

Much like government, IMO. When the words "Secret" or "Top Secret" can close files to which the public has a right, bad things occur. There has been lots of that over the past hundred years, and there is more of it going on now. Time to get real nervous, folks.