BS: Foxhunting Banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

Well there's something we agree on :-)

(you notice I misspelled blonde though? hehe)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM

Speeling is know indacashun of inteeligence :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM

Jusst aask jOhn!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:28 PM

Two wright!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM

Laura -- and this is a serious offer -- if you REALLY want to hunt, come over to this side next Fall.

I'll set you up for a deer hunt with my brother and his daughters -- all of whom are blondes of varying shades and all of whom are, well, smart enough for all practical purposes. (Let's see, the oldest is working on her PhD in microbiology, her sister is a straight-A art major who'll graduate in 2006, the youngest has maintained a straight-A average since she was seven years old....)

If killing a deer (for meat, they eat what they shoot, which is the way it should be) bothers you, you needn't shoot (you probably don't know how anyway and you'd constitute a danger to yourself and others). You can still experience it and enjoy some time in the outdoors.

Oh, yeah. There's none of that "smear his face with blood" crap, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

alternatively you could get the keswick reporter and look the fell pack fixtures up and see fox hunting at its best.
blencathra FH has a website
no blood on face crap there.
no fancy dress there
they dress for work not fir show
Amazing musical tradition too

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

I find that rather cool - sort of wild and Pagan...

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:45 PM

Naah; keep foxhunting! It kills about four or five rich and aristocratic bastards each and every year! Just find a way to subtly raise the height of the fences and gates! Seriously; I've lived in the countryside almost all my life, and I know that hunting is supported only by the monied classes in my part of the country. It would still be wrong if, like cock fighting, hare coursing, bull-baiting, bear-baiting, badger digging and dog fighting, it was a working man's pursuit. However you look at it, it's about taking pleasure in cruelty and suffering. The only reason it still exists is because powerful and unelected people were able to prevent the same fate as the other alleged sports. I look forward to seeing if the forces of law and order take the same scale of action against the proposed civil disobedience as they took against the miners. Sigh...prejudice now suspended, rant mode off, back to nice guy...
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM

it is a f***ing working mans pursuit! Jeez - why don't you get it?!?!?!?!

Oh yeh and only the posh hunts do the blood on the face thing. So not very many at all. In fact - I couldn't name a single hunt that does it.
And, at the risk of sounding hypocritical, I wouldn't hunt deer. Not that I don't understand they can be a right pain in the backside - to farmer and gardeners and whatever - but they aren't as common as foxes. I don't know - it just wouldn't feel right. Not after watching Bambi. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:34 PM

I was reading the (strongly anti-hunting) Guardian recently and it pointed out that a majority of hunt supporters are not aristocrats at all. This was something I had worked out for myself, as it seems unlikely that the 400000+ people who rallied in London a few years ago were all toffs and their dependents. Farmers and workers in the countryside get out of their overalls and into their pink to go hunting and immediately look like an 18th century aristocrat. Result is a pavlovian snarl from the left!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:39 PM

Well, I hope you skin it and keep the pelt. Ever done that? Killin' the easy part. Skinnin' the carcass is a bit more difficult. Do that, then we have something to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:18 PM

Exactly! If you kill, you're obliged to gut it and skin it. If you don't eat it, at least use the skin and/or fur. Thats how I was raised. Killing for fun is just plain wrong, regardless of your social class.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM

And what, pray tell, is the difference between hunting a fox and hunting a deer? Where we hunt, the deer depredation to the corn can mean the difference between our friends, the owners, making or losing money. True, we don't go out in scarlet jackets and ride jumpers. Normally we wear insulated coveralls, blaze orange vests and hats, heavy boots, and, if we ride at all, we ride "four wheelers" like these. (Usually we walk up and down those hills, but after nine heart bypasses and two minor heart attacks, we make an exception for my brother and others who have had similar troubles.)

I know some people out here in the West who ride horses to hunt. They ride to the campsite, trailing the packhorses and riding. The horses are picketed; the hunters may or may not ride to the hunting area -- those I know usually don't.

As for the prevelance of foxes and deer -- that, I suggest, is in Britain. In the US deer are numerous that some years ago the head of the Schuykill Nature Conservancy in Philadelphia called them "rats with antlers" and others in other places have expressed similar sentiments.

As for the movie "Bambi" -- I think that Walt Disney's credibility in nature films has been thoroughly established. I particularily like, in "Bambi", the statement that Bambi's mother was killed by hunters when, in the original book, she was killed by poachers.

My feelings about Fox Hunting are simple: unless the hunters are ready to chase the critter on foot, they shouldn't be allowed to chase it on horses. And they should have to get written permission to cross the property of someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

I like deer: the animal, the leather and the meat. We have so damn many of them that they are a hazard on highways and roads in Alberta.

Gutting one takes a little time, especially if you want to keep the hide. The brain is a good thing to rub on the hide when you have it removed because it helps preserve the leather and make the skin more pliable.

Of course, amny people who enjoy their steak have never helped cut the nuts off a young steer--but hey, that's what it takes. Meat doesn't start out in a grocery store plastic tray covered with plastic wrap. Steak once went moo and walked around.

I have always been bothered by folks who don't mind someone else doing the 'dirty' work. There's lots of that goin' around. Not that I think you fox hunters are that way. Let me know how you feel when you are upto your elbows in guts. The odor isn't the best, but it all washes off when ya take a shower. Just like the smell of the fox when it shits after you kill it.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:51 PM

brucie - Don't gross them out!

Its true though, about doing your own dirty work.

My grandmother almost died when I was 13. She stopped eating sugar and salt but in addition, she refused to eat any meat unless it was killed by one of her sons. Luckily, they were all hunters. She lived until she was past 90.

I learned from her that its O.K. to eat meat but only if you or your family does the dirty work. I've gutted animals and hated it. I've also scraped hides (this is also unpleasant) but I will never understand killing for sport.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:53 PM

I did it once. I will never do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:28 PM

And then there is my oldest neice. She went deer hunting at 13, and the the boys tried to "gross her out" when they gutted the deer.

There is was, hung up in a shed, the body cavity open and the innards becoming outards, and the boys said, "Come on and see!" And her response was to closely inspect the innards and say, from her heart, "COOOOOOOOL!"

That was what she said to me later when she was describing it. Coooool.

She is now working on a PhD in microbiology.

If you're not willing and able to kill and butcher your own meat, don't eat it. If you're not willing and able to grow your own veggies, don't eat them. In short, if you're not willing and able to feed yourself....

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 06:24 AM

It is poachers in Bambi - not hunters.
And I'm not killing - just following. On a horse. The difference - I don't care if we catch anything or not.
As I've said before - I would go drag hunting, but there just aren't any around.
And the foxes and the deer? Just my personal preference. I know how much damage deer can do.
Oh, and the majority of hunts do get permisssion before going across someone else's land. Except the arrogant a**holes who don't - they're giving hunting and hunters a bad name and no one much likes them. Including other hunts, and farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

The arrogance of the pseudoaristocracy can be dealt with. A nice hedge of blackthorn on top of an earthern wall, or better still, rose bushes. What I'm suggesting is something that won't hurt the horse or the dogs.

And you ain't ridin' if you're doin' that wall jumpin' on top of one of them postage-stamp peices of leather some people call "saddles." You ought to try some real
riding one of these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

Fox hunting. Not for meat or pelt, but vermin control.

If cruelty is your concern, gassing and shooting cause more suffering.
The fox population will not be allowed to increase.

You may not approve the sport, but by what right do you judge?

Real ecology is not like Beatrice Potter. A spared fox will not die peacefully in its bed. A lingering death by starvation or by scavengers when weakened is all that awaits them, and life is short.

If you really care about animal suffering, this is a distraction.
Campaign against habitat destruction that is starving so many thousands that whole species are becoming endangered.
Campaign against industrialised livestock production.
Campaign against the torment caused by the export of live animals, and barbaric slaughter methods.
All these things matter.
Fox hunting does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

Damned straight, KAoH.

The single biggest threat to wildlife (and our life) is habitat destruction. Not hunting, not radioactive waste, but houses and shopping malls and factories and parking lots.

Your house. My house.

If you want to do good for wildlife, buy an old house and renovate it (mine was built in 1968, but there are those #@!$%! mini-mansions further up the hill -- badly constructed (in my opinion), way overpriced, and merely something to further some fool's ego). Buy a house in town, tear it down if you want and rebuild on the lot.

Sorry. I see habitat destruction every day around here and it's one of my hot buttons.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:37 PM

Keith and Rapaire - You are both absolutely right. Habitat destruction is the biggest problem for wildlife.

It is, however, a mindset, that creates the problem. People have to learn that the web of life includes all animals. Anyone who participates in a blood sport is a long way from understanding the importance of habitat.

Hopefully, banning fox hunting will raise the consciousness of people who think that killing is just innocent fun.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM

I am more interested at the moment about the constitutional law arguments and how Donaldson MR can have said what he apparently did about the Parliament Acts.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

Richard: I'm in Canada. What did he say, SVP? Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

Keith A you hit the nail on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM

"Fox hunting. Not for meat or pelt, but vermin control".

Since fox hunting was banned in Scotland two years ago twice as many foxes have been killed. It does seem to me therefore that the current style of fox hunting where the fox is torn to pieces by dogs is singularly inefficient.

In fact the largest numbers of foxes are urban foxes, we have plenty is Sheffield the fifth largest city in England for example. Never seen a hunt down here though......

And when fox hunters go out from now on can I suggest you avoid them like the plague. None will carry any sort of insurance of course.......you can't get insurance for illegal activities.

Best regards,

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM

Efficiency is not the point.
A hunted fox dies or escapes. Shot foxes are often wounded but escape to a lingering agonising death.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:18 AM

Why don`t they do what they done in Tasmania [Van Diemans Land]?.    When the English colonists arrived to turn the Island into a prison colony they discovered the scaricty of any animal resembling a fox, so they turned to hunting and chasing the native population as an alternitive, as a result the first successful elimination of a race of people ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:53 AM

I'm still not convinced that allowing hounds to run down and then tear up an animal is particularly more humane than a bullet. Having participated in hunts and witnessed hounds on occasion overtaking racoons before they could tree, made a bullet seem pretty blessed to me, by comparison. Perhaps it was because I was young.

Then again, there are those that get their rocks off watching roosters armed with blades on their spurs, rip each other apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:02 AM

Having banned foxhunting can protestors now turn their attention to another cruel sport? This sport involves the followers inflicting injury on other humans and even killing each other. It totally disrupts town centres and involves an inordinate amount of police time and manpower. The followers cause chaos whenever they meet, instilling fear and trepidation in the public. The damage they leave behind costs the local taxpayers a fortune to clear up. The parking difficulties caused to local residents by these followers has to be seen to be believed.
The participants are an overpaid and overprivileged elite class who consider themselves above the law. They delight in appearing on television to extol their own virtues, although generally they are scarcely able to enunciate a coherent sentence.
It appears that any protestor at a meeting may be brutalised by the followers, even though that protestor is only stating a difference of opinion.
These persecuted individuals are Human Beings, sentient creatures just like other animals.
Can we please now ban FOOTBALL ?
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:02 AM

Just so that Keith A understands clearly - the current method of fox hunting as vermin control has been shown to be incredibly inefficient.

It has been shown to be inefficient not by guess work or what might happen to a fox when it is shot, but by real life experience over the past two years in a country not a million miles from here.

Now if Keith wants to defend fox hunting as vermin control IMHO it is not a very good argument and it is proven not to be a very good argument. Frankly I would have more respect if he admitted that they get a cheap thrill from chasing foxes with hounds.

And since, as a person from a large city I am one of those often told I am someone who doesn't understand the countryside, please explain which bit(s)I don't understand........

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:05 AM

Well said, Keith!
How many of those who are celebrating the end of fox-hunting will quite happily sit down to a meal of battery-farmed eggs and intensively-reared bacon? Modern commercial food production imposes infinitely more unspeakable cruelty than any sport, yet we condone it every time we go the the supermarket.
The thought for nearly 750 hours of parliamentary time wasted on this piece of knee-jerk legislation when there are far more important things to deal with makes my blood boil. Still throw a sop to the deluded bunny-huggers and maybe they'll forgive some of the other iniquities of this government.
As for habitat and conservation; half the coverts and hedges in England would have been grubbed out two generations ago if it wasn't for the hunting and shooting they afford. As a keen shot, habitat management is in my interest, and I recall that half the time I spent out with my fowling mates was actually on work parties repairing dykes, sluices and sea defences to ensure that the habitat was preserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:10 AM

We raise chickens by the billions here, we have more foxes than Britain, yet they are not a problem. I wonder why?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:37 AM

Folkiedave,
Again, efficiency does not matter.
These people do it for nothing, and provide much needed rural employment.
Suffering matters.
Efficient or not the farmers who want the fox controlled are content.
Who gains by criminalising a traditional persuit? Not the fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: IanC
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

Kendall

Guess how many chickens in the US are raised extensibly (i.e. out in the open).

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:32 AM

So fox hunting is not really about vermin control - its really about rural employment.

Well, when fox hunting was banned in Scotland there were ten hunts. Now there are ten hunts and twice as many foxes killed. Sounds to me that is an excellent argument for the Scottish system.

As for who benefits from a traditional pursuit being banned......

Well.....the same people who benefited when badger-baiting, bear-baiting, bull-running etc were banned. They were traditional sports too. As no doubt was mammoth-hunting at one time. People become civilized. It really is that simple.

Some refuse to do so. Fine. I am looking forward to the day when the hunts go out hunting without any insurance.

And I am still waiting for someone to explain the bit of the countryside I don't understand.....

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM

If hunting with dogs is so efficient, why do they need the 30 or 40 people with horses? Nobody has ever suggested that we keep the hunting with dogs (because it's so efficient) but limit the hunters to 3 or 4. I wonder why? Perhaps the argument has something to do with ritual animal cruelty.

The same argument applies to drag hunting, surely. It's no fun if there's no animal cruelty involved.

If there's a problem with wounded and suffering foxes, get some people who can shoot straight, and stop shooting at the armour-plated ones. You'll be telling me next that hunts have never encouraged foxes to breed and multiply so they'll have something to hunt.

Good songs though.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:43 AM

thats alright because I'm going to take up fox racing, of course it may LOOK similar, but it is very different honest. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

It was once argued too, that eliminating the tradition of using slave labour would cause economic hardship for those associated with it.

Attempting to justify a blood sport by claiming that others condone or ignore the inhumane treatment of animals associated with food production is a bit of a red herring. It would seem far more rational to advocate for the humane treatment and/or control of all animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:42 PM

I have heard many a farmer complain about the destruction that the hunt causes when they ride rough-shod across the land, some farmers told me they have shot the odd fox but would prefer to shoot the arrogant huntspeople, a much bigger pest than the fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

In sheep-farming areas, like Wales and the Fells, most farmers welcome the hunt. The trouble is, the popular perception of hunting comes from the packs in wealthy areas where they're stuffed woth tossers and wankers who give hunting a bad name. Much like 4x4 drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:11 PM

I agree with Colyn!

but Folkiedave - there are about ten hunts in south somerset alone!

And you people who say you don't like the fact that the people are on horses - how do you feel about the hunts that just use dogs and feet? Out of curiosity.

And Les from Hull - the question you raise is the very point I have been trying to make. You don't need anybody on horseback - people just go for the fun of the riding. Next time you see a hunt out ask how many of them actually care if they catch anything or not - I bet most of them don't. And if there were more drag hunts around the country I bet people would support them more - it just needs some more people to set up.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:14 PM

Laura, I didn't observe anyone particularly incensed with people on horseback on this thread. As one who owns horses and who has racked up hundreds and hundreds of miles on horseback, I think I would have picked up on any overt prejudice.

However, regarding hunts using just dogs and feet, from my experience, as noted above, it does provide a particularly visceral view of a terrified animal being torn apart, as well as a providing a greater opportunity to be splattered with blood and gore, that one may not have the pleasure of experiencing from a higher vantage point.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:03 PM

A fox is a difficult target for a one shot kill.
A fox with its jaw shot away would escape. How long to die?
A leg shot through? Gut shot?
The fox will be controlled, so banning hunting results in MORE SUFFERING NOT LESS, otherwise I would support it.
That it sustains some rural families is a bonus.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

Keith - I agree.
Metchosin - sorry. it may have been on the other thread - the fight the ban thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM

No many good marksmen in the UK, eh? Pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

If you can't shoot worth a damn, don't use a rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM

I don't recall anything negative being said about horseriding in itself. There were a few whinges (one coming from me) about hunters riding over private property without asking permission, and becoming quite belligerent when challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM

Might seem strange but I am not against horse riding - nor have I ever met or even heard of anyone who was.

I have an idea. Why not go to some country area - look for a prominent landmark - let's say a steeple - and then have a "chase" or race towards it. Here's an idea....call it "steeplechasing".

"A fox is a difficult target for a one shot kill.

Not in Scotland it seems....

"A fox with its jaw shot away would escape". How long to die?

No idea...tell me....and at the same time tell me how often it has happened.

"The fox will be controlled..." well eliminated really as you wanted when it was vermin and not just a creature for your so-called sport....

"so banning hunting results in MORE SUFFERING NOT LESS, otherwise I would support it".

I see. So now it is about suffering. Tell me the difference between being shot and being torn to pieces by hounds. From a fox's point of view of course.

And for those still following this argument - at this point Keith will introduce the problem of chickens torn apart by foxes. Because he really loves animals....except for foxes of course.

"That it sustains some rural families is a bonus".

Shame that all the Scottish experience which banned fox hunting in 2002 tells a totally different story. Real, genuine, proven experience. Like I keep on saying based on proven fact. It results in less suffering and more foxes being killed.

Don't let the facts spoil a good story.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

I would like to know how the dogs (in England) are trained to chase the fox.

I once visited some shirt-tail relatives that raised hounds. Training those animals was gruesome.

d