BS: What makes a country great?

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:20 PM

A great country for midges.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

well what I really miss when I have go abroad is when you can't have a decent shit.

so from my point of view , nice toilet facilities, food that doesn't make you ill, and I don't like being bitten by insects ....surprisgly few places seem to get all that stuff together.

When I was young I used to like the scenery in Scotland, but I got bitten to buggery evry year by the midges.. However Scotland does have the whisky and this used to compensate somewhat. I wouldn't argue with Scotland being a great country despite the midges.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:11 PM

"Human nature is no barrier to socialism, our biology may affect how we percieve through our senses and how well we store information, but it is our experiences and received information we use to decide how to behave - so in an ugly world people behave in an ugly way - the point is to recognise this and start changing the world. We are not prisoners of our genes! "

I agree...but they don't...

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,socialist
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:45 AM

Bliss . . in capitalism there is a material incentive for power. In socialism this may not be true. The evidence of history and anthropology suggests that people behave in very different ways depending on circumstance. The idea of inherent biological tendency to seek power has no scientiic basis.

Human nature is no barrier to socialism, our biology may affect how we percieve through our senses and how well we store information, but it is our experiences and received information we use to decide how to behave - so in an ugly world people behave in an ugly way - the point is to recognise this and start changing the world. We are not prisoners of our genes!

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:53 PM

actually Egypt gets US$5billion per year, in exchange for the
peace treaty with Israel

No it doeesn't, petr...

"U.S. foreign aid to Egypt, which is pegged at two-thirds of U.S. foreign aid to Israel, averages $2.2 billion per year."

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

And you have to take into consideration the loan guarantees and other costs to US taxpayers that directly benefit Israel alone. When those are taken into consideration, the amount of aid to Israel is much higher than the approximately 3 billion it gets anually in direct aid.

Some people in the US think this arrangement is a good one. Martin Gibson has been very open about his opinions on this matter. I was responding to GUEST,Eibbe Navanaid, who has outlined a fairly right-wing platform that includes eliminating financial aid to foreign countries. Most right-wing people don't realize when they advocate eliminating aid to foreign countries, that also means eliminating financial aid to Israel.

Many of today's right-wingers in the US would not support eliminating financial aid to foreign countries if they knew it also meant eliminating financial aid to Israel. The only one I can think of at the moment is Pat Buchannan

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:31 PM

I agree with jimmyt - Switzerland can hardly be called humble! Cold and calculating, perhaps.

Thanks for a good post, James. I feel that way about Canada too. We're not perfect and there is room for improvement but what I really like is the hope and inspiration you find when people work to overcome their differences. I think a good motto for Canada would be, "If there's will, there's a way"

d

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:49 PM

actually Egypt gets US$5billion per year, in exchange for the
peace treaty with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:44 PM

The freedom to do as you wish, the right to be able to enjoy doing as you wish, and the responsibility not to affect others freedom and rights.

Those are important - but it would be quite possible to have a country where all that was true, but people were surly and unfriendly, and no one sang songs or made music.

And the reverse could be true as well - a place where freedom was under threat, and pretty limited, but where people were warm and friendly, and there was music and song everywhere.

And it's a bit hard to say which would be more likely to be a great place to live.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:32 PM

It is an anti-capitalist argument as much as it is an anti-socialist argument. As long as power is seen by some as being the ultimate goal of human existance, there will be a minority who hold sway over the majority. These people will always find supporters, because the closest thing to being powerful is being close to the powerful.

I would like nothing better than to see a society founded on socialist ideals, and living up to those ideals. I just don't believe it can happen until the human desire for domination is removed from the equation.

Capitalism is eating itself...one can only hope it finishes before it eats the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,socialist
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:37 PM

Bliss . . . Capitalism is a system that allows power to be concentrated in a minority, socialism depends on direct democracy. Socialism can only be brought about by a socialist majority. Even if someone did seek to control others in socialism, they could not do it without supporters, and after fighting for democratic control and free access to goods and services, who would relinquish that.

This kind of abstract anti-socialist argument, if there is anything in it at all, pails into insignificance in comparison to the sorry struggle for existence that is life under capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:39 PM

then I vote for Lichtenstein. Maybe it is so small because it is so cold...........

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:26 PM

Oh, but it's what you do with it that counts!:0)

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:22 PM

Size.
Australia wins hands down.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:47 PM

" I'n sure humans will still be fallible on the other side of the revolution but why is that a problem in itself? "

It is THE problem...the big one. With any system of economics, government, society...in any ideology there will be those who, driven by an unfathomable desire for power, will subvert the whole process to their tyrannical ends. It has happened all through history, it is still happening...i hope at some point it will stop. Until then, we're screwed when it comes to equality, freedom and democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM

DtG - LOL!

The freedom to do as you wish, the right to be able to enjoy doing as you wish, and the responsibility not to affect others freedom and rights.

Share and enjoy!

epn

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: pdq
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 01:34 PM

Humble people.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM

Every country I have been to has been great!

England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Isle of Man, Belgium, France, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Greece, America, Antigua. What do they all have in common?

Me! I have been there! Therefore the answer to your question must be...


once again,


Me!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:10 PM

SOrcha, The concept of "Humbleness" like Switzerland is laughable. ALthough it is quite a lovely little country and the people there are hard working and pleasent, they are not a humble nation, and their "Neutrality" is not exactly based on anything but economics. They are the most capitalist nation I have ever visited,(not that that is bad to me, I rather like the concept of capitalism) but they have made a LOT of profit on the backs of oppressed people and don't care whether you are a good guy or a bad guy as long as you have the money to do business.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:10 AM

Stigweard , you are obviously not in the US ...ha ha.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:58 AM

Beer.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:38 AM

Canada is a very great country in which to live....My sons are not sent to war, I have free medical care, freedom , relative prosperity and, for the most part, reasonably enlightened leadership.We are a multicultural nation and that is exciting. However, we may not be "The greatest nation on earth" or the most powerful but I believe that we are a nation that means the world no harm, knows our faults and tries to improve...and we don't brag nearly enough about what a gem we are...but then, bragging is not really one of our traits. That is why I love my country.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:33 AM

We've recently moved to rural Wales, and I think it's a great country. The landscape is magnificent, the weather is never boring, the people are kind and friendly and there's a real sense of community coupled with an openness to 'outsiders' and an enjoyment of their own culture. There's even a proper Labour Party. What would transform Wales from a great country to a fantastic country is a pub within walking distance!

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,socialist
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:11 AM

Bliss... socialists don't have all the answers, in fact it only has the ideas related to economic organisation. As politicians we only seek to change the economic basis of society, the rest is up to the democratic decision making process of all the people when we have succeeded in our mission. I'n sure humans will still be fallible on the other side of the revolution but why is that a problem in itself?

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:05 AM

Maybe it's that word "country" that has set people off this way - perhaps the question might have produced less heat and more light if it had left out the word and said "place" instead. Or maybe it was that ambiguous word "great" that set the adrenaline pumping.

I wondered if what set brucie off launching this thread was the story in the media about a recent survey by Economist magazine that looked at 111 countries, and decided that Ireland was easily top for quality of life. Of course that's not quite the same as "great" in the sense some people have interpreted that word.

The UK came in at 29 (just in front of South Korea), and the USA at 13.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:25 AM

I live in a country with beautiful suuroundings where although everyone is willing to tell you all the things that are wrong with the majority are well fed, in warm dry homes with no one shooting them. With pubs, theatres and cinemas providing entertainment to suit most tastes. Where I can leave my house empty all day and be reasonably sure my belongings will be there when I get back. Where (most of) the people are nice and if I fall ill there will be doctors to look after me and sickness benefit to let me live. But then that's what every countries like isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:16 AM

Yes, but like capitalism and indeed any system that claims to have all the answers, it leaves out one very important factor...human fallibility...

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,socialist
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:49 AM

Ideals are all very well, but socialism is about organising society in a different way, a way in which we can do without borders, wars, starvation, oppression and set about meeting the needs of all people.

You need socialism, and socialism needs you!

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:41 AM

I know it's not going to happen, i'm just the worlds last idealist...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:07 AM

1) foxhunting.
2) shooting.
3) fishing.
4) no lazy people on the dole.
5) oil.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,socialist
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:02 AM

Ebbie, you should read Marx (a communist) - he quite explicitly ridiculed the idea of equality (in the Critique of the Gotha Programme), as everybody has different needs, some people like fish fingers and some people like lamb dalesteaks. What he was on about was a society run 'From each according to ability, to each according to need!', common ownership (not state), direct democratic control of the means of wealth production, and free access to goods and services for all.

When you say it doesn't work, you are referring to the state capitalist countries, who said they were on there way to communism, but clearly weren't. When everybody gets behind the idea it will work.

Blissfully ignorant, you are astute observer, but making better people to make a better world is a tried and failed religious idea. Socialists use science to understand the world and when there are enough socialists we can use our knowledge to change it for the better.

THE WORLD FOR THE WORKERS!

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:56 AM

Fish don't have fingers John...

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:42 AM

Good quality, reasonably priced fish fingers.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:46 AM

Wesley---say no more. If he thinks he's beat on the moral argument, he'll come at you about your spelling. He holds to that high value as trumpeted by his Mentor on High "Those who are not with us are against us". As a rational being, I know you think that's piffle---but Martin doesn't, and you simply cannot get around that kind of mental block.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 01:48 AM

freightdawg - just because you love your family and friends doesn't mean you think your country is great. Ask any refugee.

and you said in regard to the people, "...they have food to eat and they are warm."

I can tell you that there are plenty of people in Canada and the U.S. who are homeless. I guess that means we're not so great, eh?

d

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: mg
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 01:46 AM

Are we sure that people in North Korea have enough food and heat? It sounds like they are in pretty dire straits but maybe that has resolved someone, I hope. I am for state-sanctioned art, but as a great artist said (can't remember his name but he was for sure great anyway)...yeah, let's have state supported art, and let the people vote for it. And he said it will all be leaping dolphins, but so be it. Well, in Seattle you know it would be seagulls on pilings. But most everywhere else it would be dolphins. A few elk here and there perhaps. Butterflies, probably unicorns wouldn't get voted in except by young teens.

A great country has to get people to voluntarily, sort of, get people to restrict some of their behavior, such as drug use etc. Otherwise things start running amuck, and then they have to tighten up and get oppressive...fine line there. It would have excellent training for jobs and very reduced educational expenses for jobs that served the public, such as nursing. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 01:21 AM

Makes a country great....possilbly a little humbleness? Or non agression? Switzerland? Finland?

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:32 AM

A great country doesn't drain its prosperity by sending ridiculous sums of money overseas when it is way in debt itself.

Woah... now there's a loaded statement. I wonder which US presidential candidate could get elected on a platform of ending financial aid to Israel. Right now, my guess would be none of them.   GUEST,Eibbe Navanaid, are you really Pat Buchannan in disguise?

Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person...

...Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html


Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel (As of November 1, 1997)

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: freightdawg
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM

Amen to Jimmyt and Clinton.

I'm sure people in Russia, China, Korea (North and South), Canada, Mexico and maybe even Texas all think that the country they live in is great. Why? Because that is where their loved ones are, they have food to eat and they are warm.

Most of what is listed above does not make a country great. In order to achieve what most of what is listed above the country would have to have the GDP of only a very, very few western countries. Therefore, virtually everyone in the world alive today would be exempt from living in a "great" country except those who live in the very richest. And it is the very richest countries that most often come under attack as being domineering, polluting and too consumptive.

I live in a great country. But so do South Americans, whatever country they live in, if they want it to be. So do Australians, New Zealanders, Czechs, Poles, etc.

(Now about those Texans....)

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:51 PM

"Why a great country? Why not a great world?"

Well, near as I can tell, you can't have the latter without the former...

I guess we have yet to see an example of the former...

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,Eibbe Navanaid
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:23 PM

A great country doesn't drain its prosperity by sending ridiculous sums of money overseas when it is way in debt itself.

A great country learns from the past but lives in the present.

A great country kicks the crap out of people who mess with it, that way NOBODY messes with it

A great country doesn't utilize quotas to acheive equallity

A great country isn't arrogant enough to think it's actions,short of going nuclear, can influence an entire planets ecosystem.

A country is great when the smart and industrious live better than the dumb and lazy
A country is great when it doesn't use it's tremendous resources to subsidize those who think entry-level work is beneath them
A great country doesn't tax the crap out of those who work to support those who won't
A great country doesn't tax its workers to pay for state sanctioned art
A great country does not socialize its major goods and services
A great country isn't afraid to explore for oil on its own soil instead of in the middle east
A great country doesn't constantly belittle itself nor its elected leaders
A great country doesnt have to encourage its citizens to be better, rather it is their initiative that produced greatness in the first place

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,Wesley S at Home
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:51 PM

Martin - You're not worth the time it takes to argue with you. You're a sad little man. Try to find something to be thankful for. I'm grateful that I don't think like you. America is a wonderful country because we have room for all opinions. It's a shame you don't realize that. I truly feel sorry for you. You are to be pitied. Via con Dios. Goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:55 PM

Seriously, although I am not Communist - mostly because it doesn't seem to work; there is always someone more equal than the others- I think there is a good deal to be said for Communism's ideals.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:52 PM

I would say that it cares about the rights and quality of life of all of it's citizens - and that it's not willing to sacrifice the rights or well being of the citizens of any other country just to further it's own interests.

--Wesley S.

Aren't these some of the very principles upon which the US was founded? I'm having great difficulty figuring out in what way these attributes would do anything but contribute to the greatness of a country.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:48 PM

I suppose what Wesley should have written of course is "I would say that in a great country we do not care about the rights and quality of life of all of our citizens - and that we are willing to sacrifice the rights or well being of the citizens of any other country to further our own interests."

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:31 PM

Somebody once said something about putting the cunt back in country. Who here likes country music? Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:19 PM

Bullshit, Wesley, your post came off as politically charged.

I challange you to take out the garbage when your old lady tells you to.

Ebbie, I was going to say that I thought your post about what made a country great wasn't bad, but than your stupid comment about me made me go back and reread it and I realized how Marxist your ideal is.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:10 PM

Countries are defined by artificial boundaries created through conflict. I just think it would be a lot better if we could concentrate on making great people...then, automatically, we'd have great countries.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:07 PM

Never mind, Wesley. Marvin is seriously confused in the labyrinth.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: GUEST,Wesley S at Home
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:26 PM

Martin Gibson says "Spoken like a true left wingnut still upset over Kerry losing, Wesley S.
How typically spineless to turn this into a typical Mudcat anti-American thread"

Martin - I challenge you to find one anti-American word in my post. Show us your spine and explain yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: What makes a country great?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:07 PM

Why a great country? Why not a great world?