Birmingham play closed by mob

Subject: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 03:00 PM

A religiously motivated mob have succeeded in terrorising a Theatre into removing a play from its stage in the UK. Estelle Morris a minister for culture defended this action, and on TV made no attempt to stand for free speech and the artistic community she is supposed to represent against intolerance. This is a nationally important moment for all who believe in our freedoms. Lacking leadership from the Government or support from the police the Theatre had little choice but to protect its audience, but this is the thin end of a terrible wedge that must be beaten on behalf of all of us who believe that art,be it visual, written or auditory should not be subject to censorship or bigotry.
Are our songbooks to be subject to the scrutiny of all religious zealots? Will we need their permission to perform our works?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 03:10 PM

In America, the land of the free, there is a limit to fredom of speech. No one has the right to cry "FIRE" in a crowded theater. Anyone see the similarity?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 03:14 PM

Not really. Could you explain?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 03:14 PM

I's be curious to know more details -- what about the play did people find so terribly offensive? What exactly took place that is characterized as "terrorising a Theatre into removing a play from its stage"?

A link to a news report wouldn't hurt. I think we all would understand that there might be some built-in bias on the part of the reporting publication, but so far we have almost no information at all upon which to base an opinion.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Big Tim
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 03:20 PM

According to the bbc, it's a play written by a Sikh and includes in its subject material scenes of rape and sexual abuse in a Sikh temple.

A crowd of people, almost exclusively Sikh, beseiged the theatre and threw stones through windows. The management have ended performances of the play for reasons of safety.

You know they banned Sean o'Casey too.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 03:29 PM

The play was written by a Sikh woman and raised issues that male memebers of that religion felt should not be addressed.
However,they mounted a peaceful and perfectly legal protest outside the theatre every night. The Theatre itself had liased with Sikh religious leaders before the play was put on the stage and printed a leaflet putting their views against the play which was handed to every audience member, and also read from the stage before the play started.
On Saturday night the peaceful picketing turned to violence. Police were attacked and five injured. Doors were torn off, windows broken, internal fittings smashed in the foyer and theatre staff attacked.
A production on another stage was for children and the parents and kids were terrified and that play was abandoned and the audience evacuated. The Sikh leaders could not guarantee that the same thing would not happen on other nights and threatened that bus loads of protesters would come from all over the country.
The play was closed because a mob attacked and terrorised a theatre.
Surely a terrible conclusion and a severe setback for all in our community of performance arts.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 06:21 PM

Does no one else care?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,Another Guest
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 06:27 PM

Yes, they are discussing it on the discussion board linked to the news item on the BBC web site, not on an American folk music board.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 06:34 PM

I guess for me, a Christian, the thought of a play where a Christian woman is raped in a Christian Church is a bit repulsive and perhaps objections would be raised but not to the extent of rioting.
Difficult to put a sensitive and sensible perspective on what has happened really.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 06:35 PM

Shouldn't this be "below the line"?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 06:37 PM

yes

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 06:54 PM

No! There's a thread about Phil Och's birthday mentioning a play featuring Phil's work. He attacked a lot of institutions. Take "Cannons of Christianity". In the Birmingham Theatre debacle the Catholic Church came out in support of the Sikhs, a coalition of religions. How would we feel as a community dedicated to music and song if a religious coalition rioted sufficiently to get the play about Phil closed down?
This issue is one that certainly belongs in the musical thread.

Actually, it does belong in the lower section. The top area is for music, the bottom area is for discussions of issue that spawn the music, among other things.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Compton
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

If we start protesting about everything we do not like....there will be nothing!!........and it's getting like that now!!. Because we do not like a particular thing, should we storm the battlements and have it banned. The behaviour of the Sikh community was well over the top.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 07:09 PM

"During a performance by the Watersons in which they included a song about hunting "Dido, Bendigo" a group of anti-hunting demonstrators stormed the folk club, tearing off the doors, smashing windows and terrorising the audience.
The brewery responsible for the evening's entertainment upheld the right of the group to sing whatever they wished, but in the interests of public safety decided to close the folk club and ensure the Watersons were not booked at any of their other venues".

Okay, it hasn't happened yet, but the Birmingham case opens the door.
I'm opposed to hunting,but in a folk club, anything goes. If I don't like it I leave.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 07:11 PM

Compton, it is easy to say these things but if it was something that directly concerned your beliefs then perhaps you would be prepared to react in some way. I am not saying what they did is right but as I said before...if it was a Christian woman being raped in a Christian Church....I think I would not feel too happy....to add to that...if I were in India watching it I might feel even more aggrieved.
Best wishes.
P.S I am saddened by the fact that Christian marches are banned in certain cities in the UK because they might upset the ethnic minorities. We are supposed to be a Christian country!.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 07:13 PM

It's not at all inconceivable that a play might address sexual assault in Christian church; the victim would more likely be a young boy than a woman, but the principle is pretty much the same. No wonder the local Catholic hierarchy is making common cause with the Sihks in this case.

Of course, there have been works of art touching upon various instances of abuse by Catholic institutions, but the general public, *including* most Catholic laypersons, has generally supported a skeptical attitude towards the perpetrators and sympathy for the victims. What's really scary about this incident is that so many members of the Sihk public seem to *support* continuing abuse, not to condemn it.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 07:15 PM

Actually we are the most secular country in the Western world.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 07:26 PM

Interesting that you say that as in Victorian times we were considered the most Christian.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 07:28 PM

Progress!

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 07:29 PM

Progress that must be defended!

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 03:02 AM

I don't think that the Sikhs are supporting abuse, more like denying it. By their actions they have ensured far more publicity for the play than if they had quietly ignored it.

Today, I see the play billed as a "black comedy". However it doesn't really matter what what kind of play it is, if it's legal, and I assume the that the experienced producers had enough sense to check that it infringed no law of the land, then it shouldn't be allowed to be stopped, not "banned", by illegal acts.

I can understand why the Sikh elders are upset, but they have to accept the law of the land.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 03:47 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4112985.stm

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 03:49 AM

Neil Foster, of the Birmingham Stage Company, said the decision to cancel the play had been made by "cowards".

He said he was now looking at staging the performance at the Old Rep Theatre.

Mr Foster told BBC Radio 4's PM: "I think it's one of the blackest days for the arts in this country that I've ever experienced.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: cobber
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 03:51 AM

First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:04 AM

I'm a bit lost by the Niemoller quotation, cobber. Are you saying we should be standing up for the rights of the Sikhs to suppress the play or for the rights of the other Sikhs (such as the author, who is a Sikh herself) to speak out?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:44 AM

First they came for the playwrights....

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:46 AM

I;ve not seen the play(naturally, the protesters havent allowed me to). But I do think this is a disater for the country. Not because a mob closed a play, these things happen, and will happen: theatre is ften a subseversive art, and will often annoy the righteous. I think it is a disater but because the governement didn't stand up and say "You have a right to go to the theatre, and we are going to defend that right".
    We have a government which has annoyed a lot of Muslims, and it thinks it can get out of this fix by cosying up to religions generally. In this case, by appeasing a Sikh mob, I think they have generated serious trouble in the future, for all of us. Do we really want censorship carried out by screaming mobs? It isn't a very sane way to run a country.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM

I think we should all picket local infant schools. They are showing a play extemely offensive to all sorts of people where it portrays a woman giving birth to a baby, which is not even her husbands, in a stable of all places! It stereotypes the Jews as not being charitable enough to give the poor kid a room. It is offensive to Moslems in that is shows 'Eastern Kings' showing respect to an icon of Christianity. It is hurtful to Christians in showing all the early worshipers to be sheep lovers. Just who does it NOT offend. Sheesh...

We are living in an extemely sad time where a minority mob can dictate what does and does not take place in a legitimate theatre. How on earth can the police let this happen? If the mob were comprised of Aston Villa supporters outside Birmingham City's ground they would not get away with it. How can the leaders of the Sikh community support such an action? Would they also support the Moslem death threats on Salmon Rushdie?

Worrying. I do not particulary care about the play itself one way or another. I hope however that it is staged at a theatre with a bit more bottle and where the police will use their legitimate powers to disperse any such future mobs. Doesn't the government frown on giving in to terrorists?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM

Got logged in at last.
THis should definitely be BS

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:11 AM

There already is a thread "below the line" with BS prefix (although the way my preferences are set, there is no line). It has the appropriate links, and was started by someone who feels no need for the cloak of anonymity. Altogether a better discussion. Religious intolerance - take two.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:18 AM

I completely agree with Dave the Nome, religous loonies are trying to take over, and this pile of shit goverment are letting them.
If the people that smashed a theatre up and issued threats were doing that in a pub, they would have been thrown in the cells, after been smacked about a bit by riot police.
But as they are religous types, council etc give in to them, and cancel the play.
If you don't like they play, don't go to see it, but dont smash the place up that is showing it.

If the play was about a footballer raping someone, i doubt there would be gangs of footballers smashing the place up?

I reckon if Satanic Verses was released now, this stupid goverment would try to ban it.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:28 AM

If the members of the Sikh, and other immigrant communities integrated more with the inhabitants of their adopted country, and remember that it many cases they chose to live in the country, then the would be more accepted. This in turn would lead to their feeling 'at home' and secure. It is insecurity and suspicion of the motives of the predominently white run theatre that put this play on that is behind this. The way they see it, this play would never have seen the light of day in the Punjab, and they seem to be trying to impose the same values on this country. I can't remember who said it, or the exact words, but this play may be crap, but I defend to the death their right to put it on. They showed Tracy Emin's 'Bed', and Damien Hirsts 'Mother and Child'and I hated them, but that doesn't mean I should rouse a rabble of my mates and force the National Gallery or wherever to close down.

Giok

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: MuddleC
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:29 AM

In this 'free' country that everyone seems so intent on entering, the proper response should have been ..
Last night was the opening of an extremely nasty play at the Vic. Being a critic, I didn't have to pay to get in, but still felt cheated....@
-remember, you don't have to go in. Vote with your feet!
Just look at some Shakespeare plots for 'non-politically correct' plots, -I'll just go and get my pitch-fork, Stratford's not far....death to the RSC! down with iambic pentameter!
.. I think the stuff in the Tate Modern could do with a bit of a torching, who's coming???.....

Actually, what 'Guest' had written earlier is very thought provoking:-
"During a performance by the Watersons in which they included a song about hunting "Dido, Bendigo" a group of anti-hunting demonstrators stormed the folk club, tearing off the doors, smashing windows and terrorising the audience.
The brewery responsible for the evening's entertainment upheld the right of the group to sing whatever they wished, but in the interests of public safety decided to close the folk club and ensure the Watersons were not booked at any of their other venues".
-similar songs were declared illegal under Health & Safety legislation passed following a lively 2 minute debate after which the Parliament Act was used in order to allow the whole House of 5 MP's to go home for their tea.
I.D cards will solve it...................................NOT!

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:35 AM

Sir jOhn has identified the main issue here. It is NOT about religion, who likes what, who cares about what, censorship, etc, etc, it is about LAW AND ORDER.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, attacking a building, breaking windows and doors and threatening those inside should have been arrested on the spot and the riot police deployed to prevent any further such criminal activity.

The police have totally abdicted their responsibilities.

This country is going to the dogs, if it hasn't already.

Pete

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:41 AM

I might reasonably object to being criticised for being a white anglo saxon. I did not choose my race and we have no common, unique human qualities.
If someone attacks my Christian beliefs, I can choose to change my religion or challenge the challenge or just ignore it. I have no right to forbid anyone expressing opinions that cause me discomfort.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,rat
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:53 AM

Hoo hah Mr Keith, all it is doing is stoking the fires of the wretched BNP.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 06:10 AM

Mr Rat is exactly right.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 06:40 AM

When a group of cultural iconoclasts take it upon themselves to intimidate the people of a country, through ignorance and uncivilised behaviour, the very least we can do as a civilised nation is support the endevours of all the artists involved in putting on this play. Instead ministers and officals hope the whole episode will fizzle out, however the embers of cultral and artistic intimidation are still burning. From the renaissance to tate modern a great number of people have suffered, died and worked hard just so we can we can put plays on like the one in Birmingham.

Regards G.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 06:41 AM

I think the theatre had every right to put on the play, regardless of what or who it could be seen to be criticising, because i think everyone has the right to criticise any idea they want to...that includes religions. I also think the protesters had every right to protest peacefully for the same reason. As soon as a protest becomes violent, however, it's a completly different situation...

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

Has anyone ascertained which particular Sikh faction was responsible for the demonstration? There are several in this country who support parties based in the Punjab and are anti/pro Khalistan etc etc. It is possible that politics plays a part in this just as much as the subject matter. It is not unknown for opposing factions to attack each other with kirpans (swords) etc at their Gurdwara's. However, if the various religious leaders gang together so will their followers until they fall out again, and they will.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

What got up MY nose was a 'Spokesperson' for the Sikh community blathering about their RIGHT to protest . Since when does a RIGHT To Protest give them the right to smash up other peoples property ?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:17 AM

It doesn't. That's the point.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:28 AM

Do we have a God given right to piss people off? Does that scene have to be in a holy temple?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:44 AM

Having not seen the play either, I can't answer that, kendall. But IF part of the point of the play is that evil can exist anywhere, maybe it does have to be in a temple - or at least in some exceptionally 'safe' place.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:46 AM

a - Yes. b - Ask the playwright.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:06 AM

Guardian article with the offensive excerpt from that play

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:29 AM

There seems to be a current belief that people have a right not to be offended.Where did this come from? Protect kids by all means, but adults shouldn't need their sensibilities protected. Grow up for gods' sake.
nick

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:32 AM

I am just jolly glad that there are people who are prepared to protect us from seeing these things - whatever methods they use. I think that this level of censorship is acceptable.

Thank you to all those who volunteered to smash up the theatre - you are doing a great job.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 09:05 AM

Our right not to be offended

Our right not to receive/inflict corporal punishment, even if it is because we inflicted physical pain on someone else.

Our right to be shitty and rude to our parents, and any other adult we want, because they can't touch us, and anyway kids on TV do it all the time.

Our right to walk about drunk or drugged or just plain antsy, and trip over an uneven paving stone and sue the local council for millions.

Our rights our right our rights!!!
What about our responsibilites, to be pleasant, to be helpfull, to not kick others when they're down.

Traditional Scout Promise

On my honor I promise that I will do my best:
To do my duty to God and my country;
To help other people at all times;
To obey the Scout Law.

I took this oath as a kid, do they still do it?

Giok

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 09:32 AM

It makes a difference who's ox is gored. I wonder how christians would like it if this took place in a church? I don't know how Sieks think, so I don't know why they are offended. It follows that many people don't care how they think, that's why we have endless wars. It takes less brains and effort than trying to understand other people.