BS: Is this Liberal backlash?

Subject: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 10:17 AM

Again, I post this not as a right-winger but as a common-sense moderate. Also, as a Jew, I do not in the least feel threatened by what these Christians are doing to save their culture.

will try again to make the link work.

If it doesn't, I apologise. please visit:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&ncid=676&e=4&u=/usatoday/20041222/ts_usatoday/christiansprotestactionsthatplaydownchristmasreligiousnature

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 11:10 AM

Refrest. big time.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 11:57 AM

As usual, you overstate your case Mr Gibson. But I must agree with you on the matters of traditional music and the use of the word 'Christmas'.

Although many of the cases may seem trivial, the principle they apply is sound, The founding fathers had the example of centuries of bitter war in Europe to show that endorsing any one religion over another is a very bad idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 12:00 PM

True. but they weren't such politically correct wimps, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 01:40 PM

Well, I think that "Happy Birthday Jesus" is a bit much, even for church. A cake and singing the "Happy Birthday" song to him is even worse. On the other hand, I think it's a bit much for people to go ballistic about being wished "Merry Christmas." I also think it's going overboard for schools and businesses and government agencies to attempt to purge the word "Christmas" from our language and culture.

I'm a churchgoing Christian, but I have to say that when I think Christmas, I think of chestnuts roasting on an open fire, even though I've never even seen chestnuts on an open fire. I do think of the birth of Jesus, but mostly only when I go to church. Otherwise, I see Christmas as a cultural holiday - and a very nice, traditional cultural holiday, at that. Christmas is our one holiday that is most full of folklore and tradition - and it's a shame to try to cleanse all that from our culture.

I think we should all be able to sing and enjoy carols, and maybe even admire creche scenes (maybe not on public property). But I do wish the fundamentalists wouldn't see this as an opportunity to shove their brand of Christianity down our throats - that's much of what causes the anti-Christmas practices of nonbelievers.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:01 PM

No one is attempting to purge the word from the culture. We are, as a secular society, pointing out that it has no place in public spaces, where all religions must be given equality and parity.

So what is the problem with that? You already get the damn day as a national holiday, and the capitalist nature of the national holiday is responsible for a large part of that.

I have no problem with secular Santa and Rudolph songs in the schools and courthouses to celebrate the federal Christmas holiday, or holiday celebrations honoring a multitude of religious traditions.

But the idea that only the Christian traditions should be given their due in public spaces, and that Christian hymns should be allowed, is going way too far.

But I don't think the Christian Christmas zealots (and this is an article about one of those fundamentists "protesting" against Christian hegemony being challenged by the state) even wants to grasp the constitutional concept of separation of church and state. Because they don't believe federal constitutional authority should be allowed to trump their religion's authority and grip upon the American public square.

For them it truly is that simple. The Constitution shall not be held up as a higher authority than Christian evangelical authorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:23 PM

If it's OK to mention and teach about Channukah and Kwanzaa, it seems downright wrong to completely forbid any mention of Christmas, regardless of the fact that Christmas is an expression of the dominant culture. Every tradition within our diverse nation deserves recognition and respect.

I absolutely support diversity and, for that matter, secularism, but I feel that much of the effort to recognize alternate and minority viewpoints goes way too far in the other direction, overcompensating way too much and giving "ammunition" to the crackpot fundamentalists.

We don't need to give the neoconservatives anything they can legitimately complain about.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:35 PM

PoppaGator, you seem to have overlooked the fact that this article has taken what the fundamentalist woman said at face value, rather than actually tracking down the facts of the story. I very much doubt that her perception of the facts actually match the actual facts (in that we all are entitled to our opinions, but not our own set of facts sort of way).

I work in public education. In my urban school district (admittedly, in a northern tier blue state) we don't forbid the use of the word 'Christmas' in our school celebrations, nor do we exempt Christmas traditions from being discussed. We just don't teach them as part of the curriculum. What we "allow" is students and staff to have holiday celebrations which honor Kwanzaa and Hannukah and the Winter Solstice alongside Christmas. Kids have Christmas toy drives. Staff have Secret Rudolph/Santa gift exchanges. Hell, our high school choir even sings Christian hymns, alongside the music of other cultures, for the Holiday Concert each year.

So these fundamentalist views about Christmas and their "protests" over the inclusion of Christian symbols and traditions of Christmas, are the problem, IMO, not the attempts by the state to be fair and equitable to the diverse cultures, belief systems, and worldviews that make up the social fabric in today's United States.

So how about you stop giving the fundies so much power and ammunition by agreeing with their worldview that Christmas as a Christian holiday is under attack by secularists? It is a state and federal holiday. Isn't that enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:55 PM

People also tend to overlook the fact that the "national Christmas traditions" are Victorian Anglophile traditions, not Christian ones.

A Mexican or Italian Christmas celebration, for instance, looks quite different from the Anglo Christmas traditions people believe are "Christian". There are no generic Christian traditions of Christmas, they are culturally based upon ethnic traditions, especially when it comes to food and customs of the celebrations (like whether one celebrates Christmas Eve or Christmas Day or St. Nicholas Day or St. Lucia Day, etc).

Irish Christians historically didn't do much of anything for Christmas. In Scotland, the Christians focused their winter celebration on Hogmanay, or the new year celebration.

This whole "Christian Christmas" thing in the US in the past 30 or so years has been a backlash against the growing diversity of American culture, and the challenges to the Anglo American Protestant and Roman Catholic American attempts to impose and merge their hierarchies' standardized set of "American Christmas traditions" with the capitalist and secularist traditions.

Phooey to that, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:01 PM

To First Guest: Your school is in the minority for sure.

To the second Guest: You are right. Except say it correctly. It's a backlash against middle class white people.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:05 PM

Italian, Dutch, German, and Swedish Americans aren't white and middle class? Since when?

Also, the proper title of the thread by this assimilated Jewish cheerleader for the conservative rural red-neck Calvinist cause engages in FoxSpeak. The article is about the right wing conservative backlash against the push towards religious plurality in the American public square.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:09 PM

The only Calvin I like is in Calvin and Hobbs.

I know what the article is about. I posted it, you idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:21 PM

Your political rhetoric is as Calvinist as it comes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:27 PM

Calvin Klein, maybe.

Tell me, do you still wear patches on the elbows of your sport jacket?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:39 PM

You are a pathetic, wimpy example of assimilated Jew self-loathing, Martin. The most bizarre part about that is your obsessive compulsive need to talk about it here in a predominantly Anglo Protestant forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:58 PM

Woah... somebody hand me the popcorn. This thread is getting interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:04 PM

I believe it quite possible that Martin Gibson isn't even Jewish, actually. He just enjoys making that claim here, using his twisted and perverted stereotypical beliefs about Jewishness as a means of point scoring in the threads here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:09 PM

Mazel Tov Guest!

you win the award so far for being the most bent out of shape Liberal on the board that my post irritated!

Rant. Rant. Rant. Rant! You saw yourself in the mirror and you got frightened!

LOL at you Guest! You've been yanked perfectly! Now be a good little Brit and consider yourself wanked!

You dummy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:45 AM

I went to the Carnegie Museum to see the Precceppe. It's an Italian Nativity scene. Jesus is born in an Italian village, while the locals go about their business.
I always liked the drunk, who is sleeping it off in a ditch. As the Magi have come with their own brass band, you know he's in for a rude awakenning.
But this year there was no drunk! I was deeply disappointed. I suppose they thought he was offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:09 AM

I have used The Bible in various senior English classes for years. Both Old and New Testaments. It is too important a book to be omitted from any serious study of liturature. When students have essays to write, I often allow them to choose their topics, because I am interested in their writing, not necessarily what they write about. I have had kids do essays on everything from Creationism to Darwinism; Catholicism to Atheism; Druids to Pagans; Japanese art to The Group of Seven; aardvarks to zebras. I teach now in a Catholic school. I have taught in Native schools, prisons and public schools. I will not be dictated to by anyone objecting to what students write about--the guideline being that it must be acceptable to their parents or guardians. The notion of appeasing every sensibility is absolutely stupid. IMO, if you try to please everyone, you will please no one. We are fast becoming a nation of moronic writers and thinkers. I often instruct my students that they are entitled to an opinion. So are their classmates.

Recently one of my Grade 8 students--who is very proud of her Greek heritage--taught a class on the Greek alphabet to her peers. The class loved it. I was grateful to her because she corrected a misconception I had. What I had always pronounced THAYTA should have been pronounced THEETA. Live and learn. And we can't live and learn if we shut down free expression. Not in our schools, our society, our churches or our world. IMO.

PS She is Greek Orthodox. The next class she teaches will be about her religion.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:41 AM

As a child I was offended when the school chorus would sing Onward Christian Soldiers during the Viet Nam war but other Christmas Carols or master works by Mozart, Bach etc are truly great.

I suppose I have a crap barometer that applies to secular as well religious works.

I grew up in the bible belt and was punished for doing essays on evolution. I was even sent to the principals office for writing that man is a mammal. Of course we were not allowed to do a scholl play titled Inherit the Wind.

When I think of religious intolerence I think of what was done to me by the intolerent religious.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:43 AM

Hi, Brucie - in classical Greek, Theta and Beta are still Thayta and Bayta. In modern Greek, it's Theeta and Veeta. I could read and understand the signs when I was there - but I couldn't pronounce them.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 02:00 AM

Don,

Much of what is done in the name of education is disgusting. I had a job interview maby years back at a school in Alberta. During the interview--which was going well--the principal said, "We use the strap here." I responded, "You won't be using the strap on my students!" With that, I stood and said, "I presume this interview is over. Goodbye."

I don't have the temerity to apologize on behalf of education. So, I won't. However, if it helps at all, please know I received the strap numerous times in school. It's barbaric. But then maybe it's what bad educators need to fall back on.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 02:01 AM

And once again I have learned something new. Thank you, Joe. Merry Christmas to you and your family, and may you have peace, good health and continued happiness in the coming year.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 03:13 AM

"liberal backlash" Isn't that an oxymoron?
               flamenco, the true path!

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:49 PM

I have a suggestion. Why doesn't the republican controlled congress eliminate the part of the constitution that deals with separation of church and state? Then we could have a theocracy that would put Iran to shame. Sems to me, that like their president, they are all hat, no cattle.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:56 PM

Merry Christmas to you, guest.

Or does that make you uncomfortable?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 04 - 03:00 AM

I think you're onto something, Ted. Maybe we could ALL agree on Flamenco.
Flamenco - those are the pink concrete birds people have in their lawns in Florida - right???

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 04 - 03:03 AM

"Sems to me, that like their president, they are all hat, no cattle."

I do not understand this. Would someone please explain? Like, I'm havin' flashbacks or sumthin', man.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 04 - 11:41 PM

From the link below:

"Texans have a phrase "All Hat and no cattle." This phrase applies to pretend cowboys that dress and talk the part, but are pretending to be what they aren't.

"I once heard Ann Richards describe her opponent in the Texas Governor's race as All Hat No Cattle. Her opponent was George W. Bush. When I needed a name for this website, that phrase immediately came to mind.

"The list below contains other similar phrases you might find laughable.

"Lisa Casey - Cartoonist

All booster, no payload.

All crown, no filling.

All foam, no beer.

All hammer, no nail.

All icing, no cake.

All lime and salt, no tequila.

All missile, no warhead.

All shot, no powder.

All wax and no wick."

Explanation

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Liberal backlash?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

Thank you for the explanation and the links. I will sleep a wiser man than I was at midnight when I decided to stay awake all night.