Irish songs which aren't Irish

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:51 AM

The only attempt to start a brawl here (so far) has come from an (inevitably anonymous) guest. What is interesting to note here, is the way that a living Irish culture has adopted and sustained songs, which would otherwise have slipped out of sight. Most English guys I know, would be embarrassed to admit that they knew the words of a folk song. Irish people come together at pubs, parties and weddings and proudly sing the songs they know - and this canon is constantly being updated, extended and changed. It goes to the heart of what folk music is about. The only times I have known spontaneous sessions of folk song singing in Germany or Britain, were when I was among groups of predominantly Irish people.
Another "Irish song which isn't", in the sense of the thread title, is Molly Malone. It was allegedly written by a Scottish broadsheet writer, who had never visited Dublin. I think there is some case for arguing that these songs become Irish songs. They start life somewhere else, but they enter the Irish tradition.
Brecht's "Caucasian Chalk Circle" poses the question, "Does the child belong to the birth mother, or the woman who nourished it?" I think you can view "adopted" Irish songs in the same light.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:20 AM

Sonny's Dream

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:21 AM

Who cares -- a good song is a good song, and a crappy song is crap.

I don't understand why McGrath wants to perpetuate this debate. I'm sure anyone who wants to inform themselves whether a song is Irish, Scots, or Swahili, can do so by looking up the innumerable threads here on the subject.

I played a gig on New Year's Eve, and an elderly woman in front kept suggesting "Wild Rover" and "Irish Eyes"... I just ignored her, and she went home happy after applauding loudly and buying a CD.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM

Yes it's amazing how the old Stephen Foster song "Hard Times Come Again No More" came to be considered Irish! Was it because Mary Black sang it?

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:43 PM

Hard TImes Come again no more

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:38 PM

Song For Ireland.
Come To The Bower.
The Irish Lullaby.
The Irish Ballad.
The Wild Colonial Boy.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 09:53 PM

It doesnt help when there are so many books published with titles like
'The Popular Irish Song Book' With Ralph Mc tell , Cyril Tawney and Eric Bogle songs in them . AND all UNCREDITED !!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 09:45 PM

In the US, where people love labels,"Irish" tends to be what people call anything that isn't rock'n'roll, country,or "folk" (as in Bob Dylan). I used to describe the music I do (traditional Irish/ Scottish) as "Celtic" until Enya came along...
Anyway, a couple of "Irish" favorites from our great Maine songwriters
Dave Mallett- The Garden Song
Jud Strunk - A Daisy a Day

And what about that Jimmy O' Driftwood anyway- St Brendan's Fair Isle

Everyone Sing along!!
Julia

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 09:40 PM

Those Fenian songs of the Civil War era. Weren't they mostly written in America?

"It's Christmas in Kilarney."

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,TJ
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:59 PM

Those innumerable early-20th-century Tin Pan Alley songs ("When Irish Eyes Are Smiling", "My Wild Irish Rose", etc.) are totally phoney in terms of the tradition and not something I need to listen to myself, but hey, they made people smile in their time and thus justified their existence. My 85-year-old mother loves that sort of stuff to this day, having basically grown up on it, and so what's the harm in letting the elderly green-beer-and-shamrocks crowd enjoy them?

"The Unicorn", on the other hand, is a different matter. :-)

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,grow up
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:52 PM

What's a "begrudger"? Someone who prefers the truth to a fashionable lie?

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:37 PM

OOOOH! Where to start! Where to start! Thanks, McGrath, good to get some things off your chest.
I've noticed these labled Irish:

Medals for Mothers (called an Irish mother's song)
The Grey Funnel Line (funny!, being as how it's about being in the British Navy)
Willie McBride
The Band Played Waltzing Matilda (for Heaven's sake)
The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face
And almost anything I ever sing to audiences at Folk Festivals and the like!!


and of course there's:
Danny Boy (tune collected in Ireland of course)
Rose of Allendale
Shoals of Herring (even if you say Shoals of Erin)
Irish Washerwoman (English according to our fiddler friend)
Blackwater Side
Maggie (try singing it with a friend singing "What a Friend we Have in Jesus" at the same time. Sounds a lot better)
I'll Take you Home Again Kathleen
Whe You Were Sweet Sixteen
Mother Machree
When irish Eyes are Smiling
My Wild Irish Rose
Mac Namarra's Band
Molly Darling
That's better. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:30 PM

Sorry vindelis. You're right it's not Irish, but it's Ralph McTell that wrote Clare to Here

Don T.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: vindelis
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM

Don't forget that Great Christie Moore? song 'From Clare to Here'.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:25 PM

This thread reminds me of the other sorts of "let's begrudge the Irish" threads like the recent one as to whether the Irish were genuine Celts.

So why not a thread re: Irish songs the English claim are English, hmmmm?

All this sort of thing is about is Brits (even those of Irish descent at times) being cheesed off at the success and popularity of Irish traditional music for the last decade and a half, instead of English music.

Who the bloody hell cares?

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:19 PM

Dirty Old Town (Ewan MacColl, Salford, England!)
Wild Colonial Boy (Oz!)

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:10 PM

Ditto for "The Unicorn"! Can't understand what the fascination is with those hand gestures. Do some folks never grow up??? Of course in the States there are all those pseudo Irish Tin Pan Alley songs like "When Irish Eyes are Smilin'", "My Irish Molly", and of cours "Galway Bay".

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:09 PM

G'day McGrath,

Of course, any song is claimed as clearly Irish if it mentions:

Whisk(e)y,
drinking,
Fighting,
Singing,
Misspent youth (or adulthood),
Unrequited love,
Misbehaving,
Poverty - and if it
contains ... or rhymes with, Green!

Regards(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:09 PM

Danny Boy
I'll Take you home again Kathleen
When Irish Eyes are Smiling
Irish Jaunting Car
Want more?

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:06 PM

Well, the one that drives me nuts is the goddam useless f***ing no-good s***-eating, Unicorn.

Which was one of the many fine childrens songs Shel Silverstein, an American Jew, wrote; until it got to be the practice to sing it every night, in every American "Irish" bar, with weird animal gestures, and I came to hate it.

Peter.

Subject: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:02 PM

Years back in a thread that has just flickered back to life (Sick of DADGAD) I commented (in a bit of thread drift) "The thing about the Wild Rover, of course, is that it isn't even an Irish song in origin. It was collected in Norfolk, and that's the version that the Dubliners picked up. Any good song will end up being sung in Ireland, and then people assume it's an Irish song to start with, rather than to finish with. The same goes for other Irish favourites like "I live not where I love" and "Fiddlers Green". I might start a thread on that, asking for other Irish songs that aren't.

Anyway, I never did start that thread back then, so here it is. For all I know someone else did start that thread, but that's no reason not to talk about it again. I can't see how anyone who thinks that the fact something has been done before is a reason not to do it again can enjoy folk music anyway.

So let's be having you...