Irish songs which aren't Irish

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Weasel Books
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM

Heck, look at how many people think "Queen of Argyll" or "The Ramblin' Rover" are traditional.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Cruiser
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:46 PM

One very talented gentleman:

Glen Reid Biography

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

Once again I find myself in agreement with my friend Seamus. There is no excuse for not paying royalties. When monied interests do it, it still sucks, but one understands how they will try to do it. But when another artist does it, I find it unconscionable. Hell, the royalties don't amount to enough as it is.

Glen Reid is consumately talented. If you want confirmation, get his CD's. They are great. Want a custom guitar? He builds wonderful instruments. All this and a performer to boot.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:33 PM

Big Mick, I was like that myself in my younger days -but it's great seeing an audience react to the Unicorn. It's particularly good at a kids' show. As I said before, Shel Silverstein never wrote a bad song.
Belfast - well said.
And Glen Reid, that's a helluva song, and you're in good company if people think it's traditional. Ewen McColl, Tommy Makem, Robbie O'Connell spring to mind.
It's a bummer that you're not getting credit for it, especially in these days of Internet searches.
In the past, I have recorded songs without knowing who the author was - I'm going back 25 years, mind you - but when I found out later, I gave credit and paid royalties.
There's no excuse for it in this day and age, though.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:22 PM

I tried to think of some song that is actually Irish, but nobody thinks of it as such. I couldn't - I think it'd have to be the kind of song nobody wanted to sing, because, when you get down to it, if a song gets sung by an Irish singer, and it's a good song, it counts as Irish. Someone should rewrite that song to be "If you come into the parlour, you're Irish."

"The White Rose of Athens", that's another I'm sure you'd find in some Irish songbooks. And "Never on a Sunday".

I remember on the Burntollet March some of us struck up with "The Internationale". "What's that they're singing?" said, a man, a bit suspiciously. "Oh, it's an old rebel song." "That's all right then."

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:53 PM

LOL @ Glen, well you have to admit it, the song is a good one!

Every good song should be sung often.

Great thread!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: RWJ
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM

Nice sentiment Glen , a song is to be enjoyed by all

Ron

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,Glen Reid
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM

In 1970 I wrote a song "My Green Valleys" which was used as a filler song for an album "Brannigan's Boys" (an Irish/Canadian pub band, of which I was the banjo player)
Lo and behold the venerable Wolfetones recorded it, as well as the Irish Rovers.
Since then it has been recorded over 30 times by various artists(mainly in the British Ilses)
Regretfully on more than one occasion it has been credited as traditional. Obviously these people havent gone through the proper licencing procedures and ultimately as the writer, I lose.
Ive even had people suggest I couldnt have possible wrote the song, as they heard their grannys singing it to them in their cradles.

Its flattering to have had so many artists cover this song over the years, yet frustrating when the above happens.
In spite of the fact it was written for a Irish pub band, by a Canadian, it succeeded in sounding traditional enough for the purpose intended at the time.
Cheers, Glen

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:12 AM

Thought people were having a pop at Bill Caddick's Unicorns for a while, which would have been a bit strange, now I know it is the horrible song favoured by Junior Choice on the wireless when I were young.

Elfcall

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: belfast
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:58 AM

Possibly there is no such thing as an Irish song. After all, songs don't carry passports and they are indifferent to national boundaries. Ewan MacColl may have written "Dirty Old Town" about Salford but once the song is released it's as free as a bird and settles wherever it pleases.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:39 AM

I too have vague recollections of the Bachelors doing the Unicorn thing in the 60s, but it seems to have faded pretty quickly after that, and is certainly not regarded as Irish over here.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:03 AM

I'm really grateful for this thread, which points out that a lot of truly awful songs "credited" to Ireland are in fact English and American compositions. Thanks, lads!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:34 AM

I'm pretty sure the Bachelors have recorded the Unicorn but it's certainly received lots of airtime in the Uk over the years.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,fidjit
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:16 AM

Anything collected in Norfolk could have come originally from Anywhere. Even Ireland. Surely all folk songs started in Russia or the Balkans? Try tracing the Troubadours of France. Guilliam XI etc., from the 1080's and Richard Lionhearts Great-Grandfather via Ellanor of Aquitaine. etc., etc. Happy New Year to all our readers. See you at the, "Straw Bear Festival" Whitlesey?

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:04 AM

GUEST, a lot of folks love those songs. For years I wouldn't play them because I was young and had my head up my arse. You know the line, "They aren't REALLY Irish!". But then I matured as an entertainer and realized that I am hired to entertain them. So I sat down and put together some medley's and learned some others. Now I want this to be just between me and you ..... Promise? ..... I actually enjoy singing them and seeing the reaction from those folks.

But I still ain't doing the friggin' Unicorn!!!

Mick

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Weasel Books
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:43 AM

Plenty of Irish immigrants to Glasgow so therefore, it MUST be Irish.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:02 AM

Re the Unicorn song: I've never heard of it either. I think it only flourishes in America, I dont believe it has crossed to the British/Irish side of the Atlantic.and udging by the descriptions of it, perhaps this is a good thing.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:07 AM

Guest O' Meara - If I sang La Vie En Rose, then it's effing Irish, OK? With Bodhran accompaniment -
And when I sing Mariú or I Belong to Glasgow, or Ar Hyd Ar Nos, or Will The Circle Be Unbroken, or Lili Marlene, they're effing Irish, OK?
What's the problem here?

Lovingly.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:08 AM

Cruiser and Freightdawg, since you are obviously familiar with 'The Unicorn,' perhaps you can offer an opinion as to why Noah took bloody rats onto the Ark, and why he felt that he needed to succour alligators and geese, both amphibians.
Regards, Chris. With tongue in cheek.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: freightdawg
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:49 PM

Okay, I'm big enough for this.

The Unicorn is one of my favorite songs, and has been from the time I was a little package puppy. My favorite rendition is from the Irish Rovers.

(although I must admit I've never been subjected to cheesy "hand movements").

"There were green alligators,
and long neck geese,
some humpty back camels
and some chimpanzees,
some cats and rats and elephants,
but sure as your born,
the loveliest (song) of all was the Unicorn."

So there. Pppttthhhhhhhh.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: DougR
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:30 PM

Kevin: the fact that you are not familiar with The Unicorn Song just about rocked me out of my chair! I can't imagine how you could not have been exposed to it. It's certainly not one of my favorites either so I join a host of fellow Mudcatters on that score.

DougR

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:21 PM

AND the cjhance for me get another 100th post in !!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:21 PM

A Lot of Good Humour , and remarkably little nastiness !!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:19 PM

Incidentally , this is one of the most intersting threads we have had on the cat for a while ! A lot of REAL information !

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:17 PM

And NO ONE has mentioned that WONDERFUL Traditional Irish instrument the Bodhran , introduced to Ireland from central Europe in (I think)
the nineteen thirties !

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:21 PM

Big Mick, I love them all! Well most of them!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:18 PM

I agree, GUEST. And you used an excellent song to demonstrate the point.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:11 PM

Big Mick

Re "Maybe those Tin Pan Alley songs are disliked because you often would need to know more than three chords to play them."

What I meant was that you would probably have to know more about music to play, say, "Peggy O'Neill" than the basic songs that are trotted out by Irish bands these days.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:51 PM

On the telly here there's an add which says, 'there's a little bit of Ireland in us all' .. so that makes every song a little bit 'Irish', or as some pronounce it 'Oirish', as in 'Oi.. Oim Oirish'

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:29 PM

Ard Mhacha: The Lish YoungBuy a Broom may have been attributed to Ireland, and you may have always heard it sung in Geordie. But it was written by a Cumbrian, about a trip between Kirkby Stephen and Kendal, neither of which are in Geordieland. Sure songs transplant an acclimatise, great, but this soneg was originally about the north west of England, as was Dirty Old Town(Salford). If others choos e to sing them, brilliant. It would be a boring old world if we were parochial about music, a good song is a good song.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Cruiser
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:13 PM

"Gimme some green alligators and long-necked geese..."

My favortite version (and I am an atheist) is by The IRISH Rovers, who "popularized" it in the 60s.

"The Lord seen some sinnin' and it gave HIM great pain...."

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:00 PM

So far I've survived without ever hearing that unicorn song, I think. Maybe it is tempting fate to say that.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Weasel Books
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:12 PM

Ewan MacColl wrote it about Salford didn't he, but the beauty of it (or of any good song) is that you can identify it with any grey, depressing, squalid industriallised town.
I think the best take is Shane McGowan singing it. His whiskey-parched delivery gives a seedy edge to it that just works.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:21 PM

When the world was created the "Arabs" got most of the oil and the "Irish" got to sing most of the best songs.
It's an ill divided world, he says with a smile
So who really got the best deal?
O'Meara's post gets my vote for the best answer.
Kenny B

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: EagleWing
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 03:29 PM

On a Clancy Brothers LP I have is a very beautiful song written, I believe, by an American Jew. It's entitled "Lament for Brendan Behan". Despite knowing its source I can never think of it as other than an Irish song. It is one of the most beautiful songs I have ever heard and the Clancy's performance of it is wonderful.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:52 PM

Forty Shades of Green.

Broad Majestic Shannon (!)

West Coast of Clare (!)

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM

Greg Stephens I heard "Buy a broom" sung many times but never in any other accent but Geordie, north-eastern England, and for the last time, I hope, "Dirty old town" refers to Salford.
And please, the majority of the songs mentioned in this thread can be claimed by whatever other country wants them, personally I would rather have the toothache than listen to some of them, and the Unicorns horn should be inserted up the ass of whoever sings this bloody awful dirge.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:35 PM

Two completely different Foggy Dews, true enough. But the bachelor with a son song has existed in all kinds of versions all over the British Isles - it's one of that third category of songs I mentioned up the thread, which are native to the whole archipelago. Particular versions hale from particular places, that's true, but the songs are at home everywhere.

There's a lot to be said for looking around to find a version from your own neck of the woods - "your own neck of the woods" normally meaning something a bit more local than the country you live in or come from.
...........................
The question of how second third and generation Irish feel about the country to which they have been transplanted has been affected a lot in England by the ongoing dispute between the two countries, which puts up a barrier, and that wouldn't apply in the USA. You'd never see a Union Jack in an Irish Assiociation in Engand, but I imagine the Stars and Stripes would be common in an equivalent setting in the USA.

I imagine whether it might be a bit more like that for some people with roots elsewhere, such as Mexico, where the shared history with the USA includes a fair amount of conflict and aggression.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: EagleWing
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:25 PM

Billie boy says "I heard dirty ol' town was about liverpool, or maybe salford as mentioned above it more correct.

Being sung by the dubliners confused the issue!"

Of course, Liverpool is in Ireland. Everyone knows that. :-)

Definitely Salford!

Frank L

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:46 AM

The two Foggy Dews have different tunes as well as different lyrics

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM

Interesting thread. Of course most of these mistaken ideas about where a song comes from arise from the fact that most people cannot be bothered to look to see who wrote the song in the first place.
Then of course songs become 'adopted' by the people who sing them. Songs develop a life of their own as they make their way around the world. To insist that Dirty Old Town is 'about' Salford ( or whatever other north of England town you think it is )is rather pedantic. It has become a song about any dirty old town.
As to the 'tradtional' songs by mr and mrs anon, these songs and tunes have found their own ways around the world and will continue to do so. Each may claim them for their own but they can never 'own' them.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:33 AM

Great question, greg. In fact, most Yanks that I know identify themselves as Irish, English, Dutch, German, Native American, etc. It is, I suppose, due to the fact that we are an immigrant nation and folks divided up and hung out based on national origin. It is not unusual in the older (usually Eastern US) cities to have whole neighborhoods with signage in the language of the nation from which the early settlers arrived. And this goes on nowadays as one sees signage in the language of the newer immigrant groups.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:17 AM

I have noticed had that people in this thread are referred to as "Irish" even if their famlies have lived for many generations as citizens of te US. Does this principle apply to immigrants of all ethnic groups in American? I imagine with ethnic groups that are visually recognisable(eg black or Chinese) this would last for ever, but how does the principle apply to the English,or Norwegian immigrant to America?
    And on the subject pf non-Irish songs(as opposed to non irish people): it is the humorous misappropriations into the "celtic" canon that give me most pleasure. My personal favourites are the identification of "Any old iron" as an Irish folksong on an intenet site; a song of more gungoho Lodon-ness could not be imagined. I have also seen "The lish young buy-a-broom" identified as Irish many times, which is a bit funny when you consider it is written in noerth-western English dialect, and the action of the song takes place between Kirkby Stephen and Kendal. Now, I am perfectly delighted if anybody wants to sing these songs in Tralee or Timbuktu, but it takes more than a Clannad or Dubliners recording to localise a song in a new home fully. That is a slightly longer process.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:58 AM

Dear GUEST of 04 Jan 05 - 10:02 AM,

If you would like help locating an appropriate chord encyclopedia to improve your ability to play more involved songs, drop me a PM.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,Billy Boy in France
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:39 AM

I heard dirty ol' town was about liverpool, or maybe salford as mentioned above it more correct.

Being sung by the dubliners confused the issue!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: EagleWing
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:14 AM

Weasle Books said "It's the same tune though, isn't it? " (re:Foggy Dew)

The English song "Foggy Dew" is about a batchelor who keeps a maiden from the "Foggy Dew" and procreates a son.

The Irish song I mentioned is a rebel song which refers to "Britania's sons, with their long range guns, crept in with the foggy dew." I believe there is a non-rebel version of that song but understood it to be still Irish (though this thread has made me wonder!)

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,The O'Meara
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:09 AM

Whwn I was a kid in west Texas, many long years ago, all blue jeans were Levi's and all hats were Stetsons. "Pull on yer Levi's, boys, and grab yer Stetsons, we're gonna ride!" Same way all nose papers were "Kleenex" and all copying machines made "Xerox" copies. It's easier to say "Hand me a Kleenex" than to say "Hand me a nasal tissue." Everyone knew what you meant, without a formal definition.
   I reckon that's the same with "Irish" music. For general purposes, most folks know what you mean when you say "Irish Music."
   Seamus Kennedy: I didn't know La Vie En Rose was Irish until I heard it on your CD.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: EagleWing
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:09 AM

A GUEST says "Eagle Wing,
                   Don't take me too seriously, PLEASE!"

I wasn't taking you seriously at all - and my reply was equally tongue in cheek.

Frank L

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:02 AM

Maybe those Tin Pan Alley songs are disliked because you often would need to know more than three chords to play them.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:44 AM

Every so often we go through these discussions. They are fine, and don't offend me, as in my shows I always mix a liberal dose of education with the entertainment. I usually point out which songs are based on older songs, often that they didn't originate in Ireland, or how they came to be identified as Irish. Having said that, I have noticed in most of these threads, a certain amount of "shamrock envy". But not much, and in the case of this thread, a fairly civil conversation.

One thing that I have noticed about the "purists" and their disdain about what constitutes "traditional", with regard to instrumentation or interpretation. They often try to impose their definition of what is the one way to perform the music. For me, one of the great traditions among the Irish, and the scattered children of that island, is that we will take the wonderful legacy and blend it with the times and instrumentation, as well as the style. An example would be the Uilleann Pipes. This is an instrument that was never made to be played ensemble, and up until the 1960's was almost exclusively played solo. Today it is every bit as much an ensemble instrument, while still retaining it's solo heritage. At the beginning of the twentieth century one would rarely see any of the instrumentation we use now, beyond the harp and flute. And you certainly would not have heard a bodhran in the mix.

The point is that, IMHO, part of the tradition IS that we Irish will borrow songs, tunes, and instruments into our vibrant, living, and evolving musical heritage and let it take the music where it is bound to go. With regard to the Tin Pan Alley stuff, it seems to me that the Irish who had to leave took their longing for home with them. Given that music is central to our culture, it is only natural that new songs would come, and that they would reflect the times. While I don't care for this stuff, I will play it for those that enjoy it. And Tin Pan Alley isn't the only source of this, as many wonderful songs about Ireland and the Irish have come from the grandchildren of Ireland in other countries. From Clare to Here, Song for Ireland, Wild Colonial Boy, even Tim O'Brien has written some wonderful stuff. Give a listen to his "John Riley", in fact listen to both of his albums where he takes his American old timey instrumentation and applies it. They are wonderful.

Now ..... about The Unicorn ..... Jeez, but I hate that song.....

All the best,

Mick