BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago

Subject: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:43 PM

well, the universe is full of ironys:
I assume Martin already is aware, but others might like a chuckle.

for those who can read Washington Post site:
Jewel Foods opens kosher section
for others, a brief clip..

"Jewel is a well-established supermarket chain that caused no heartache and invited no wrath until a couple of months ago, when it suddenly bought a huge billboard on Chicago's North Side to announce the opening of a gleaming kosher food department at a nearby store.

To Jewel and its parent Albertsons, the move was a straightforward play for customers and profits.

To the family-owned kosher shops along Devon Avenue and in nearby Skokie, it was a threat and an affront.

"I've definitely lost a fairly significant percentage of business," said Chayim Knobloch, proprietor of Kol Tuv Kosher Foods, a store and deli located across the street from the billboard. "I've begun trimming expenses and staff."

Knobloch advertises his kosher grocery, a throwback with narrow aisles packed with goods from wine to tablecloths, as "The Heimische Store," invoking a Yiddish word that suggests home and a warm hearth. When it comes to prices, he says, he cannot win.

...................

Shortly after Jewel remodeled its store in September, an influential group of rabbis tried to shore up the kosher stores by mailing an appeal to thousands of Jews, urging them to stick together and shop at the smaller stores that have long served the community.

Titled "An Open Letter to the Community," the rabbis' missive said other cities had seen kosher stores forced out of business by supermarket chains. They objected to the big competitors' "aggressive manner" and said they "strongly encourage all Jews" to buy from all-kosher stores.

......................

Back at Kol Tuv, Knobloch closed his books one day and headed into the frigid twilight, on his way to synagogue. He said his loyal customers were behind him in the sales battle and pointed to Rabbi David Maler.

Maler said he enjoys shopping at Kol Tuv for the sense of fellowship. Then, cupping his hand over his mouth, he admitted that he has started to buy kosher goods at Jewel. "The sale stuff," he said sotto voce.

"I asked my local rabbi," Maler said. "He said, 'The sale products -- you should give yourself a break.' "

....so, I assume that Martin G., true to his stated philosophy, will take price breaks over "Heimische", but the whole situation bemuses me.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: DougR
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:55 PM

That's progress. Can't be stopped Bill. Unfortunately for them, the Mom and Pop stores of the past, particularly in the larger metropolitan areas, will soon be history.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:06 PM

I didn't say it could be stopped... I just said it was 'interesting' *grin*....

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:21 PM

According to Jewish law you are supposed to favor a Jewish merchant who keeps his store closed on the Sabbath (Saturday). The reason was that years ago Orthodox Sabbath observing Jews could not find employment because they would not work Saturdays and had opened their own stores to simply earn a livelihood.   However the law does allow leniency if the family is poor and simply can not afford the higher prices in the small groceries. They are allowed under those circumstances to shop at the cheaper supermarkets. Here in Monsey, NY we had a similar problem when the local Pathmark opened a kosher department. However, one of the small store owners, Mr. Mendlowitz opened his own supermarkets called Monsey Glatt & Wesley Kosher. They are every bit as big as the local Pathmark and do such a large volume of business that they can also compete pricewise as well. They do not sell any non-kosher products and are closed on the Sabbath. They are so busy that you can not get parking spaces during certain hours. I may add that the recent influx of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews from Brooklyn is so great that all the smaller stores are thriving and have expanded as well. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:29 PM

Actually, in theory, it CAN be stopped. One of the requirements for obtaining/granting a "hecksher" (Rabbinical certification of kosher compliance) is that the store not infringe on anyone else's livelihood-- Even if every product carried in the store is kosher. It sounds like protectionism, and it is, but it's one of the reasons that there are so few kosher places in the Washington, DC area, where the local Va'ad Hakashruth (the Board of Kosher-overseeing Rabbis) is very protecive of its current providers. If the rabbinical establishment of Chicago denies the Jewel store its certification, the store will suffer. It can get certified by a different, out-of-town board, but lots of people will boycott it because the hecksher isn't good enough.

--Charlie Baum (embarrassed to share this bit of dirty linen about the way kosher certification actually works)

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:39 PM

hmmm...fascinating! Thought I was just teasing MG a bit, and I am getting an education...

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:05 PM

Yes, I have heard of this Jewel store on the far north side of the city in the largest Orthodox section in the Metropolitan area.

First of all, the title of this thread is misleading, it's not Wal-Mart, it's Jewel, the leading chicago area supermarket. They are a division of the Safeway corporation.

I am not an Orthodox Jew as Rabbi Sol is, but I love kosher food for it's higher quality and promise of fine manufacturing conditions. I also know my people as a whole and how we really did evolve out of the Maxwell Street culture here. If Jewel charges a better price, people will buy from them. The smaller merchants will have to provide the services and neighborhood involvement that Jewel cannot do.

One thing to remember. Many, many food product manufacturers have jumped on the Kosher bandwagon for reasons other than 2.5% of the American population. Many other groups (definately Muslims) look to Kosher products for their superior quality and the target market for these manufacturers is much more than Orthodox Jews who are adhere to kashruth dietary laws.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:10 PM

" it's not Wal-Mart, it's Jewel," .....thus, the phrasing "WalMartishness", meaning, driving out smaller businesses with certain tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:21 PM

Why not just call it capitalism, Bill D.?

It's what building a better mousetrap has been all about in this country for over 200 years.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:25 PM

because not all capitalism is fair, equitable and sane. This country got where it is partly becuse of capitalism, and partly in spite of it.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

see the "Rational Capitalism" of the old SciFi...

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: GUEST,Nerd, no cookie!
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:32 PM

Muslims do not look to Kosher food simply for higher quality. They have their own set of dietary laws which correspond partially with Kosher laws, so buying Kosher is a shortcut where there aren't many Halal places. Martin is right in a sense, in that Halal laws unlike Kosher laws are partly based on health principles, so eating healthier, as long as it didn't violate any other Halal laws, would be seen as a good thing.

There have been recent attempts, by the way, to explain Kosher laws as health laws. But they are wishful thinking (see how much the ancient Jews really understood about health...they knew about trichinosis and mercury poisoning, etc!) In fact, the kosher laws are based on biblical injunctions and the proscribed foods are proscribed for explicit reasons, which have to do not with health but with symbolism and ritual concepts of taboo and pollution, which were very important to early Hebrews.

Nevertheless, as Martin points out, Kosher foods are marketed as higher quality and healthier, and in many cases they are. I recall the old Hebrew national commercials which portrayed Uncle Sam (representing the USDA laws) frowning as the narrator pointed out that Kosher laws were stricter than US laws on additives, fillers and impurities ("we have to answer to a higher authority!")

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:36 PM

But Bill D, you are being judgemental in what type of capitalism fits your own individual mode.

Ultimately, time will tell. If consumers like buying Kosher food from Jewel the program will continue. If it is not accepted, they will abandon it for another idea.

They have every right to try to sell a product better than someone else.

Again, the doubters of this need to take Business 101 which is a required course for dealing with life.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:40 PM

Nerd, as a marketing executive, those Hebrew National commercials bordered on genius.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: DougR
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM

I, too, am learning a lot about the Kosher market that I did not know. Interesting. Assuming the Rabbi is right, and I have no reason to doubt him, I can see where the smaller stores can compete with the larger ones. They have the Rabbis who approve the food as Kosher on their side!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:51 PM

I agree, Martin. Great commercials. They should still be running them--but they'd probably look dated today!

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:52 PM

well, I was at least right in what I guessed YOU would say, Martin...but Charlie Baum makes an interesting point about the internal workings of certification.

(and yes, indeed, I have MY opinions about modes of capitalism! Enlightened regulation is also part of what made this country great...remember how we had to rein in the steel companies and railroads of the last couple centuries?)

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:55 PM

yes, and now the steel companies can't compete with China and Amtrak slithers around on it's belly thanks to all of that enlightened regulation!

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:27 PM

In Monsey many of the smaller stores provide special services for the community. They maintain special charge accounts for poor families who can not pay at the moment and hold them on the books until such time as they can get back on their feet. They also have a program called "Chesed Dollars" where they allow local charitable institutions to sell the coupons which are redeemable at a discount at the stores. It is like a partnership for the good of the community as a whole. Tho 2 large kosher supermarkets, Monsey Glatt & Wesley Kosher do everything the small stores do charitywise, in addition to matching the prices and services of Pathmark. Mr. Mendlowitz never forgot his humble beginnings. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM

As far as Rabbinical certification goes there are other factors besides the kosher status of the food alone that would bar and establishment from receiving it. First and foremost an establishment that is not closed on the Sabbath could not receive an Orthodox kosher certification. That of course is a no brainer. However it goes even further. An establishment that has entertainment featuring mixed dancing where there is physical contact between men and women can not be certified as kosher. An establishment that has entertainment featuring female vocalists can not be certified unless it caters to an all female clientelle. A resort that features mixed swimming (men & women in the same pool together) can not be certified. We even had a recent case where a friend of ours who is Orthodox and had a fast food restaurant could not cater in one of the local synagogues because she did not keep her hair covered at all times, despite her food being Glatt (the strictest degree of) Kosher.
SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:31 PM

I'd say "you've got to be kidding", Sol...but of course, you're a Rabbi and you wouldn't joke about things like that. That sure is a thick rule book.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:41 PM

And that Bill D, with due respect to the Rabbi, we have different ways of observing and interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: WalMartishness goes kosher--in Chicago
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:47 PM

I, personally, know about 4 levels of "observing and interpretation" among friends here....and I see it everyday in news from the Israeli parliament. I just shake my head and thank God I'm not religious in wonder. (just little joke there, folks)