Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?

Subject: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:45 AM

Never mind the "Irish songs that aren't Irish" theme - what about Irish singers who aren't "Iorish"?

For example - Patrick Walker - brilliant fiddle player, questionable singer, but might sound better if he sang (and spoke) in his native (Sheffield) tongue.

Why do they do it?

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:00 PM

Because they want to sound "Oirish"?   If so, that's enough reason, seems to me.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,not Irish
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM

short answer: they are wankers !

more considered answer: they are self deluded/oportunistic wankers..

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

or the realy comical ones..

German Irish covers band singers..

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:06 PM

In my own case, because I'm part Oirish 'tho raised in England, and, more importantly, because some songs DO sound better in their native dialect. I'm very careful to ensure that the accent is as authentic as possible, using my father's brogue as a model. This is the main reason why I never attempt Geordie songs, much as I would love to do so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:09 PM

Songs like "Dirty Old Town" for instance?

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:09 PM

P.S. Funny how anonymous "Guests" always seem to post the crudest personal attacks. I would answer "It takes one to know one"

Don T.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:09 PM

If it sounds good, the only wankers are the critical morons in the crowd

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:12 PM

I know that for me personally, being American, if I have learned a song from an Irish, English OR Scottish source, it is very hard for me to not hear it that way in my head as I sing it, and therefore it comes out sounding, well, like a really bad version of the song. This is all to say that perhaps SOME of what you are hearing is unintentional.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:16 PM

"This is the main reason why I never attempt Geordie songs, much as I would love to do so."

I sing a number of Jez Lowe songs, and I love his accent (as well as his songs) but I'd feel such a fraud singing them in a Geordie accent (which I am quite able to do) - am I wrong being so sensitive?

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:26 PM

Jez is not a Geordie but a County Durham lad. Durham has several quite different accents to the Tyneside creole.

I don't mind someone having a go at an accent so long as they don't balls it up. Some have failed spectacularly: Dick van Dyke's cockney in Mary Poppins and Robin William's 'English' Mrs. Doubtfire spring to mind. What about Mick Jagger whose normal accent is an effette South London and sings like he's from the US Mid-West?

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM

All of the pop singers from Britain and Ireland sing in a US accent, old rubber lips Mike isn`t on his own, Van Morrison and Cliff Richards are two outstanding examples.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM

yeah.. alright.. my even more considered view
is that it is no more or less valid/invalid
than actors attempting accents to perform as a character other than themselves..

most often not very convincing, frequently distracting,
and occasionaly downright bizarre and hilarious.

but for the rare few with a highly developed
and sensitive talent accents..
[and help of expert voice coaching specialists]
who can pull it off convincingly.

something to be admired..

but.. i dont know..
in terms of singers..
especially in specialist styles like ours,
and mor often when you personaly know in day to day real life
the individuals attempting to fake it..
still seems an unacceptably distracting/alienating/embarrasing stylistic artifact..

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for pointing out my error BigPinkLad - I did know Jez's origins of course, and I have a friend who's a mad keen Boro fan who hates me referring to his "Geordie" accent! I'll try to be more discerning in future.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM

I don't think Cliff Richard is an outstanding example of anything - except banality

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM

when you personaly know in day to day real life
the individuals attempting to fake it..
still seems an unacceptably distracting/alienating/embarrasing stylistic artifact..

Mister Perfect above.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:53 PM

Dick van Dyke..???
you wanna hear Russell Crowe do a Welsh accent in one of his
early movies back when he was a young 'un..!!

now in theory an Aussie should be able to do 'Welsh boyo'
reasonably accurately..

there is probably not much mystery why this film disapeared in recent years..
i do believe at one point he sings in a Welsh accent..

sorry cant remember the title

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:53 PM

The question for me comes down to whether or not the song needs it, then whether I can pull it off. The Night Before Larry Was Stretched, and Finding of Moses come to mind. If you can't do the dialect, neither will come off as it should. In the Scottish tradition, there is a certain amount of brogue required to be able to do a number of Burns songs. But if a performer is trying to bring credit to the song, as opposed to trying to be something that (s)he is not, then it is incumbent on that person to research and practice mightily in order that they pay the proper respect to the people they are trying to emulate. Unfortunately many do not do this.

Some of the accent is natural for some folks, as in my case. I was raised around, and associated my whole life even up until now, with so many Irish and Scottish emigrants that certain small inflections are very natural to me. There is nothing phoney about it, it is akin to someone who lives in the Southern US, or Canada, after a while they pick up certain things.

But I do agree that there are far too many folks that have identity crises in their lives, and affect terrible accents. Feel bad for them.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: woodsie
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:57 PM

Don't know what the big deal is - Irish songs are sung with Irish accent 'cos that's what people want to do!

Carribean Songs ditto
Cockney songs ditto
U.S. songs ditto

Who cares, if it sounds good, it's good. If it's crap it's crap!

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:58 PM

BTW..

yes i do know there is debate as to Russell Crowe
being aussie or kiwi..

to date I dont Know if hes done Irish yet for a movie..

But i sure would'nt want to be the bloke
who has to tell him if he does it badly..

not without good medical insurance and a waiting ambulance

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:02 PM

"I belong to Glasgow" with a cockney accent.
"Una Paloma Blanca" with a ...........cockney accent?

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:10 PM

there are too may guests here..
its getting very confusing..


..so just as long as no one starts typing here in an Irish accent..

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM

Woodsie, a breath of fresh air. Yer roight of course. If it's good it's good

Don T.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM

Why is it that when people perform Hamlet they always use a British accent? (yes, I am aware that there are lots of accents in Britain.)

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM

In some cases, it would be difficult to deliver a lyric *without* using some approximation of the song's original accent/dialect.

As an analogy, consider acting in an Irish play as corollary to singing an Irish song. I performed in a couple of John Millington Synge one-act plays as a college student, and believe me, you cannot recite those lines *without* your voice falling into some kind of "brogue" or "lilt"; some element of native west-of-Ireland speech seems to be built right into the syntax, phrasing, etc. of Synge's work. The trick, I suppose, is to find a way not to overact to the point where you become a cariacture of yourself.

When I was in those plays, I was an Irish-American kid who had never been to Ireland, and who was not even aware that there are *different* Irish accents in different areas of Ireland. I got the roles because my voice sounded appropriate to the equally-ignorant director and audience. I'm sure that standards for such an accent would be *much* higher in the UK (and of course in Ireland itself), where the general public is more aware of the real accents of their actual neighbors.

I'm sure that part of my accent came from my mother's "stage Oirish" -- she did lots of amateur theater back before I was born -- but I'd like to think that I also incorporated a degree of more authentic influence from having lived next-door to a family of recent Irish immigrants, whose parents were native Irish speakers from County Galway who spoke English with notably "thick" or heavy accents. So perhaps my put-on speech patterns were not too terribly wrong for Synge's Aran Islands settings, after all.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Swave N. Deboner
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM

I agree with Big Mick and Woodsie. If the dialect is on the mark, then more credit to the non-Irish/Scottish singer. Since there are so many different regional dialects in both countries, if a person that isn't from either place goes to the trouble of being aware of the region that the song is from, and then does their best to get the dialect right, then I'd say good on them. Even if they're not so slick at it, they don't intend any offense, and don't deserve to be called wankers, unless of course they really are wankers.

I would rather hear non-Irish singers sing in an Irish accent than non-Scottish singers murdering the Scots dialects. I'm Scots/Irish by blood, though not actually from either. I'm just a Yank. But when I sing a proper Irish song like Grace, Fields of Athenry, or Red is the Rose, I sing it in what I've been told is a pretty damn good "Oirish" accent by those qualified to judge (Irish folk from Ireland). I can readily tell the difference between an Ulster accent and a Dublin accent, and I find both much easier to emulate than any of the Scots dialects. I absolutely cringe when I hear some ignorant twit trying to sound Scottish. It embarrasses me. Mel Gibson did a decent Scots accent in Braveheart, or at least I thought so. And Richard Gere was right on as Declan Joseph Mulqueen in the remake of The Jackal. I'd say it's more difficult to speak with an unaccustomed accent than it is to sing with one.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: John C.
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM

Personally I believe that singers should always aim to sing in their native/natural accent/voice unless they happen to be very good mimics who can bring out the passion/emotion in a song whilst imitating someone else's accent.
I recently heard a recording of a singer who had an accent which was extraordinarily like that of a very well known singer on the British Folk Scene (I'm far too well brung up to mention any names!). As the well known singer has a very distinctive voice I found this very distracting. Perhaps I am misjudging the first singer - perhaps they were born and raised in the same street - but probably not!
I also remember, many years ago, hearing a singer, who sounded identical to Harry Cox, sing Harry Cox's songs in front of the great man himself! This could be construed as great flattery - but I just found it crass and embarrassing!!

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

I don't mind someone having a go at an accent so long as they don't balls it up. Some have failed spectacularly: Dick van Dyke's cockney in Mary Poppins and Robin William's 'English' Mrs. Doubtfire spring to mind.

Two things: Most importantly, Mrs. Doubtfire isn't really English; she's the hero's conception of an Englishwoman. So if the accent is mucked up, it's the character's fault, not Robin Williams's.

Secondly, I thought (from my American viewpoint) (s)he sounded more Scottish than English.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Alba
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:54 PM

Actually Mrs Doubtfire's Character was supposedly a Scot!!:>)
Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Bert
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:03 PM

And how would you be singing "Begorrah" widoutan oirish accent?

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:14 PM

An hour or more elapsed between when I started writing my last post and when I completed and submitted it -- I *am* at work, after all -- and quite a few messages appeared in the meanwhile. So, I have more comments.

This argument has popped up before, and as likely as not I've said the same things before (as have several others, I'm sure). No one is likely to change their mind.

There seems to be even more indignation about "false" (non-native) Scots-accent singing than there is about the Irish issue, but rarely any problem at all expressed over white and/or foreign singers performing blues, reggae, etc. Isn't it all the same thing? If John Mayall, Paul Butterfield, etc., can sing the blues in voices that are to some degree their own but also to some degree dictated by the tradition from which the songs arose, why can't Mick from Michigan or Tom from New Jersey perform Irish songs with the appropriate set of vowel and consonant sounds? Seems to me that part of a song's intended and traditional "sound" is a basic approach to the way words are pronounced.

True, a non-native's "song-Irish" (as opposed to "stage-Oirish") accent won't be truly authentic, because it's a *generic* accent, not specific to one Irish city or county as opposed to another. It's most obvious features will be basic elements common to *all* (or most) true regional Irish accents. But if it's heartfelt and appropriate to the singer's natural voice and to the material, not obviously "stagey" or put-on, I don't see any problem. Not unlike pop/rock/blues sngers using a "soul" accent that can't be specifically identified as Mississippi African-American or south-Alabama Caucasian, etc.

On the subject of bad accents in movies, let me observe that the *worst* examples of wildly incorrect accents have been Hollywood's efforts to portray New Orleanians. Trust me on this. "The Big Easy" may have provided the largest collection of different off-the-mark accents by a large cast of badly-coached actors (with plenty of help from the writer[s], who provided some embarrassingly patronizing and inappropriate dialog), but I think the single most abysmal single effort of all time was by Lawrence Harvey in some black-and-white film adaptation of a Tennessee Williams play.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,Paddy O'Vinyl
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM

anyway.. surely by now

"Plastic Irish"

is a well established and distinct
dominant international cultural and musical tradition in its own right....

the authentic Irish are just a minority historical sub-variant..

We Plasic Irish will conquer the world..

..anyone else think Guinness would be much improved
if it was lighter coloured and watered down
to make it more palatable to us plastic paddys..????

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:24 PM

I'm siding with the "don't Do It" crowd... Sing in your own voice.. in your own accent...

Leave mimicry to the birds...

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:28 PM

How about Jimmy Miller from Salford singing in a broad Scots accent?
We all grew up believing Ewen McColl was Scottish.
And we used to chuckle when a Scottish friend sang blues - 'I got the weerie bleews'.
I agree with PoppaGator - but sometimes you feel cheated when you find out your hero is a fake.
Robyn - who sings most songs with a Kiwi accent but adds a touch of 'colour' when necessary.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:45 PM

We have covered this very topic many times in the past. Do search in the database for those replyies. I think it is a good idea to recirculate this stuff now and then. New blood equals new ideas.

In this case however, unless it is a broad burlesque of a song I view false dialect as pretetious as singing as song in a laguage that neither you, the singer, nor you audience speaks or understands.

Dave Ruch is correct tho'. I think we all tend to sing songs in much the manner we first hear them. There is no other way to explain 250 lb. baritones singing Neil Young songs as if they were bargain counter tenors.

Don

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:03 PM

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:41 PM

..." Sing in your own voice.. in your own accent...

Leave mimicry to the birds" ...

Well said Clinton.

Trust me, as a native Scot, there is NOTHING quite as cringe-making as to hear an American affect a Scottish accent when singing a Scottish song. I am SO tempted to name names here, but my natural sense of chivalry prevails...

If you ever get a chance to catch one of Debra Cowan's gigs, (Mudcatter Deb C) you will witness an object lesson in how an American can sing Scottish and Irish songs while refraining from affecting a cod accent.

In fact, I would sooner listen to Deb singing Irish songs than 99% of the current crop of "real" Irish songstresses.

And the same goes for Scottish songs.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:48 PM

"I view false dialect as pretetious as singing as song in a laguage that neither you, the singer, nor you audience speaks or understands."

This belief also holds true with a persons ability to type and spell in his own language.

Humble Don, (sigh)

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:10 PM

I absolutely agree that, done badly, it is akin to nails on a chalkboard. But remember that some of us learned this stuff from family members. Hence the brogue, regional variations and all, is somewhat intact. And it is no more phoney to me than speaking is. It is the way my family passed it on to me. To be sure, it is inflected with my status as a Yank, but I am not doing this to be pretentious. It is how I learned to sing this music over a lifetime. Testament to how well it is done can be found in the very large numbers of ex-pats who come to my shows on a regular basis.

In fact I think therein lies a clue to the answer. If a person's reason is a pretentious one, then they shouldn't be doing this. These are the one's that make someone like Murray cringe. Some of us, despite being raised in the States come from a very ethnic background heavily influenced by the immigrant population around us.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:12 PM

I'm also with the sing in your own accent crowd with an exception - for doing "theatre". When I sing "Wouldn't it be Loverly", as part of a two-person show we perform, I use a fake Cockney accent. Singing traditional songs it's always been my own accent that I use.

DonMeixner has touched on another point that I think about a lot. The singing of songs in a language that isn't understood by the audience. Apparent here at so called "Folk Festivals" which are becoming more and more "World Music Festivals". Granted that the overall sound might be wonderful. BUT! If a song has words, usually (Mouth music excepted), words are very important to a SONG. Even telling an audience what the song is about is not the same as hearing the poetry as it's sung.
Again there are probably a few exceptions. There have been times we've performed for audiences in restaurants and sung a few Italian songs at a table of Italians, a German song for Germans etc. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:34 PM

I sing all of my songs with a distinctive Alaskan accent. With the exception of my hit "Evil Freddy" where I sing in a horribly exagerated accent of a Mexican bandito. I have used dialectic nuances such as this whenever I thought I could get away with a cheap chuckle without offending to many people. Count me in the "if its good, its good; if its crap, its crap" crowd.

Mike

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Jimmy Twitcher
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:17 PM

Well . . . I often sing "The Diamond Ship," the 4th verse of which just does not rhyme in my own generic Ammurican accent, but which does rhyme in Scots. I generally sing it in my own voice until I get to the 4th verse, and then sing it with just enough Scots to make "home/hame" rhyme with "name." I feel uncomfortable singing it without even a nod to the Scots rhyme, and I also feel uncomfortable singing the whole song in what I am sure is a terrible faux Scots.

If it makes others feel uncomfortable the way I do it, well, they can go out for coffee while I sing. (grin)

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:43 PM

Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
Because I'm Irish....
Alaska Mike, I thought I do a damn fine Alaskan accent on your song Wilderness Letters, and on Hobo Jim's Fishin' For Chickens. *G*
And your Evil freddy Mexican accent is right up there with Speedy Gonzales.
See you in a couple of weeks.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: goodbar
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:52 PM

i sometimes sing with an accent. it's just that i've always heard the songs with a different accent so it just sort of comes natural. but truly trying to fake it is just gay.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Bert
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:28 PM

What's all this rubbish about a "cockney accent".

For those who don't know, Cockney is the language spoken by the people of the City of London. London is the capital city of England.

England is where the English language comes from. Therefore Cockney is the DEFINITIVE version of the English Language. Same as Parisian French is the definitive version of the French language.

So Cockney therefore is NOT an accent. If you don't speak Cockney then it's YOU WHO HAS THE BLEEDIN' ACCENT MUSH.

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM

avin a larf or sumink

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:42 PM

Some very interesting responses to my (tongue-in-cheek) thread. No-one yet though has suggested any financial reasons.
Around these parts you can get good money gigging with a repertoire of Irish/Irish popular songs sung with the obligatory Irish accent. It's amazing how many musicians I know have learnt how to jump on the bandwagon - Ahh well, dare y'are, and good luck good luck to 'em

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM

It's got to be unconscious in most cases. Like a Brit playing blues or rock may get a slight US accent bcos the songs sound better sung like that. Similarly an American playing English folk may get a slight English accent (or at least tone down the American-ness). So ditto Irish.

So, a challenge. Find someone with a Deep South accent who sings "Matty Groves" in their original accent. Or find a cockney who sings in French without adjusting their accent. Any other nominations for "compare-and-contrast" exercises? :-)

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:06 PM

GUEST,not Irish
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM

I did..!!!

"...oportunistic wankers..."

both tongue in cheek and just a little bit disdainfull

Subject: RE: Singing with Irish Accent - Why!!?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:08 PM

Oi mate.. wot abaht Billy Bragg doin' Woody Guffree..