BS: A question for Mormons

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 02:52 PM

Joe, Very insightful and artiulate message. Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

Good on yer, Joe

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

Be careful about judging an organization from the Websites that purport to represent the organization. Many Websites seem to be run by extremists who have the zeal to do the work and spend the money to keep a Website going. As Pogo says, http://www.lds-mormon.com/ seems to be one of those zealot sites - this one a not-too-subtle anti-Mormon zealotry. The official site, http://www.lds.org/, seems to give a better representation.

I've taught religion to Catholic adults most of my life, and I have to spend a lot of time combatting the right-wing misinformation that gets posted on the Web and broadcast on radio and TV. The extremist Catholics seem to be funded by an unlimited amount of brewery money and Domino's Pizza.

I think that in most cases, if you have a large organization that has existed for over a century, most of the time it won't be as horrible as its detractors (or its zealots) make it out to be. Every organization has shortcomings and prejudices, but most aren't horrible. I think that applies to the LDS Church, to the Roman Catholics, the Boy Scouts - and possibly even to an extent to the Republican Party (although I reserve judgment on that last one). Most religious groups have racist ideas in their history - that was once part of the universal culture. Some have been slower to withdraw from the sins of the past, but that's the way people are.


I hate to be too quick to condemn anybody. I think accepting the faults of others and recognizing our own faults is an important part of tolerance.


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 09:28 AM

none since Constantine took over. (Brucie)

Gelasius mentioned by Rapaire came well after Constantine.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM

I want to say to all of the people who seriously responded to my question, thank you for your input, it has been most helpful. Pogo, I appreciate you being candid. As for those people who viewed this as an opprotunity to make fun of Mormons, all you did was prove that you are not that intelligent. I do not agree with the LDS church as well as several other religions, this does not however, mean that I should talk bad about them. The beauty of living in America as that we have the right not chose what religion we would like to belong to, if one at all. I realize that you also have the right to make fun of those people, but in this case it was unsolicited and therefore, I digress, makes you look like a fool. You might think about that before you go posting your opinions on a serious website. Take care all, and I will continue to keep tabs on this thread as I value all input. God Bless. Susu

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 11:47 PM

Uhmm...

Perhaps it is me...but that LDS mormon org site looks...well a bit shady...

http://www.lds.org/

That I know for a fact is the official site and another source I would think for answers to your questions and questions anybody else might have.

now...my perspective as a Mormon?

Well now...I can sit here and discuss this long as y'like. I can say nice pithy things like " God's time is different than man's time " and " being a prophet does not mean that you are immediately exempt from being human " and quite frankly blab on and on about the subject which I have personally heard discussed over and over again until it gives me a headache.

It's called looking for angles instead of angels.

For the sake of the record I classify the African-American-descendants-of Ham/Cain theories as " space doctrine " in other words it's believed by many folks within the church but it ain't set in the stone anywhere as gospel truth. I also believe there's more important things to tend to in this world than debating over why African-Americans were given priesthood authority in the Church at the time they were given it. Bottom line...they have the priesthood now as all men of the church do. They use it as all men of the church do. I imagine they're damn grateful and humbled to have it to perform blessings and ordinances as all men of the church are damn grateful and humbled to have it to perform blessings and ordinances. And it isn't going to be taken away from those who have it unless they become unworthy.

There will be people who read this thread who regardless of how I try to reason things out will still think it all just boils down to trying to justify a gentle sort of racism. There will be people who think just because I am Mormon/Christian/a moron/whatever that that immediately discredits anything and everything I say. Okay. You don't have to believe one damn word I say and I'm sure as hell not asking you to. Peace be with you then. Have a happy and prosperous life :)

Susu find an answer that seems satisfactory to you. Take your questions to God and pray about it. Read the Bible and the Book Of Mormon. Listen to General Conference. Do research. There's some suggestions that have worked with me regarding questions in my life and that may help you find your answers if indeed you seek them with sincere intent and honest curiosity.

Anyways sorry folks if the tone comes across as defensive or adamant...it's been a long stressful week and I ain't no saint regardless of the Latter Day title. So I'm entitled to go a little J. Golden Kimball-ish now and then :) so there...bleh :P

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 11:43 PM

yep...neat stuff behind the scenes...

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 09:50 PM

cool thanx Bill

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:41 PM

re:"tracing a thread"...susu...if you 'trace' a thread, you will have that thread listed on your 'personal page', (where PMs arrive), and thus will be able to find it easier if it drops off the bottom here...it is a special feature of Mudcat for registered members.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 06:39 PM

Repaire was confused he meant Gladys Knight.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:46 PM

Susu said:

the Diana Ross claim? I would think that if she were Mormon then she would not have been arrested for DUI last year.

Susu, there's a difference between "a Mormon" and "a good Mormon" or "an observant Mormon". Like the rest of us, they have their backsliders, their weak characters, and indeed their naysayers and reinterpreters.

If Diana Ross is a Mormon, I don't know which (if any) of those categories she may fit in.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM

Good point, Teresa; I don't think the church originates this kind of negative stuff. It's just a personal tender point with me to see the church adopt it, and reinforce and perpetuate it by coming up with doctrinal and "scriptural" rational for it.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:13 PM

Through Ham (a name meaning black) the blood of the Canaanites was preserved through the flood, he having married Egyptus, a descendent of Cain.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:12 PM

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: MaineDog
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

I do not see how blacks could be descendents of Cain, because all those who survived the Flood were descendents of Noah, who was descended from Seth.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:00 PM

this is off the subject, but what does 'tracing' a thread do?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:38 PM

well, susu...beyond asking about your motivation, I (and others) have provided links.... and my analysis of the links that, when combined with PMs ought to give you just about what I said.. the attitude that concerns you is NOT mainstream teaching, but obviously still persists in some places or families.....as do many awkward teachings in many churches.

as to your comment "...as I have found too many inconsistencies in their doctrine as well as some other issues in the church..."....I have found many inconsistencies in religion in general, as well as some other issues....which cause ME to eschew religious practices altogether. I guess it's just a matter of the 'degree' of doubt for each person, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Hollowfox
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:09 PM

Well, susu, as interesting as the 'Cat can be, it must be admitted that we do better with answering musical and folkloric questions than we do with a lot of other subjects. If I remember, I'll ask at the visitor center at Hill Cumorah the next time I'm up to visit my mother (she lives nearby). No promises, though. Have you tried asking at a Mormon church, or at the LDS website?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM

I confuse Monday and Tuesday.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:20 PM

Bill D.in response to your question "what are you trying to prove?" I am NOT trying to prove anything. I merely asked a question that I was wondering about. Let me set the record straight since there seems to be some misconceptions going on. I was raised LDS, I am however no longer affiliated with the LDS church, for many reasons that are not related to this particular topic. It is just that I am still hearing evidence that suggests that this doctrine is still being accepted, that blacks are 'cursed' because they are descendants of Cain. I posed the question because I honestly want some feedback from people who are in the LDS church. My reasons for leaving the LDS church were many, but I do not bash them or tell them that they are wrong, I just do not agree with many of their teachings, as I have found too many inconsistencies in their doctrine as well as some other issues in the church that I do not care to go into. Yet if you look at all posts that I have made on Mudcat, then you will see that I am not posting a bunch of negative things in regards to the LDS church, I merely asked a question, that so far no LDS person has responded to. I did get a PM from someone who stated that her sister is LDS and that she (the sister) stated that the doctrine is still being taught.... below is a copy of the pm.

Since i am too chicken to get involved in a thread quite so highly charged with emotion.........my sister is Mormon, and has been since she was about 16. I remember HER telling me the same story when i was young, so no, you are not crazy. I do believe that it was doctrine at one time. Fortunately, you folks have contemporary prophets who update the rules from time to time.
Blessings be! It is Epiphany today!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:55 PM

Gladys Knight and the Pips, Diana Ross and the Supremes, The Chenille Sisters, Lilith Fair.... Shucks, I still confuse Tom and Dick Smothers.

Yes, Gladys Knight.

Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:13 PM

way to go Brucie!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM

Gladys Knight?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 10:50 PM

Repaire, do you have a website to back up the Diana Ross claim? I would think that if she were Mormon then she would not have been arrested for DUI last year. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 10:11 PM

Living out here in Mormon country...where interracial adoption (and even interracial marriage) happens....

One of the tenets of the LDS church is that children are, originally, souls awaiting birth -- sort of like little cherubs flying around heaven until Big Daddy yells, "Hey! It's your turn!"

Thus, if you practice birth control you are depriving a soul of its right to be born, and thus many Mormon families have lots of kids. Also, all these souls have to have a chance at salvation, which means they should be brought within the LDS church. So, if there are lots of kids in, say, Africa or China or Korea, you do A Good And Right Thing if you adopt one (or more) of them and bring them up a good Mormon.

Diana Ross is a Mormon and is touring Mormon stakes with a singing group.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 09:36 PM

susu..I know of one Mormon who occasionally posts here, though usually as 'guest' named Jon...He says there is very little 'folk' music interest in Utah, so I would not expect many to read here.

I ahve NO doubt that there still are some LDS members who still dwell on earlier statements of Brigham Young, as noted above and on a couple of the linked sites...but...so what? Racism will never be limited to one group, and anti-black teachings are obviously not 'mainstream' doctrine in LDS any longer. What are you trying to prove? If it is your view of faith and religion that is being somehow upset, it is for you to deal with.

There are contradictory positions in every faith...that's EVERY....(look at the Muslims who are told on the one hand to be peaceful, and on the other hand to kill 'infidels'...and Christians who have similar awkward positions.

Mormons have HAD some highly visible positions in the past...like plural marriage...and a few still believe in that, though it is not accepted by the elders any more.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 09:17 PM

(3) No one will take my bait.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 08:39 PM

Okay, I digress, the fact that no Mormon has come forward and stated their position on this leads me to believe that only two possible conclusions. 1) No Mormons go to the Mudcat website. 2) Any Mormons who read this realize that there are some serious flaws with this doctrine. The Mormons have a set of beliefs called the Articles of Faith in which the second one states, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." I was taught this from the time I was 4 years old, and was told that the meaning was that each person is accountable for what they do on this earth and that the sins of their father will not be held against them. (Which is how it should be.) This is a blatant contradiction of the policy that blacks are descendants of Cain and that their lineage therefore made them ineligible to participate in the priesthood. I just want someone who was taught this doctrine to come forth and explain to me how it came to pass that now blacks are allowed to do something they were not allowed to do prior to 1976. I mean if they are still people of color and they are "descendants of Cain" then why would God have a change of heart regarding their "curse"?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 08:29 PM

Dont understand the difference between "negro blood" and Christs' "Arab./jewish blood" and brown skin colour...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: BanjoRay
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

"No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood" (Brigham Young). The Mormon church would have had to change that rule after it was discovered that everyone comes from ancient African stock.
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM

Here is one link of interest.

Here is a slightly more balanced report

Here is another discussion.

Here is a whole page of references.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 06:33 PM

Okay, while I appreciate all the input regarding this topic, I am really interested in finding out if there are Mormons out there who were taught that blacks are descendants of Cain and that the reason for their skin color is because of the curse that befalls all of Cain's (and later Hams) descendants. This was what my dad told me when I was growing up, but now he vehemently denies ever saying that, which makes me think that the church has instructed their members to deny previous teachings as they change their doctrine. I want to see if anyone will actually admit to this teaching as I KNOW that I did not come up with this on my own, everything I heard about the LDS teachings I got from my dad. I however did not believe this even when he would say it and I did accuse him of being a bigot, therefore I know it was not from what other Mormons said because of the heated discussions we had when I was a teenager. Needless to say he even made comments about how blacks were not as intelligent as whites and how he did not trust any non-white doctors. I am happy to say that God intervened in my heart and I never thought that, which to me seems incredible since children often believe what their parents teach them.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 05:28 PM

the basic answer seems to be that the LDS church has had some severe restrictions on what a 'Negro' could do within the church, but that these restriction have gradually eased over time.

this seems to show it has eased a LOT

and this explains a bit of the history and recent changes

1978 seems to be the pivotal year that the priesthood was opened to "Hamites"..(those presumed to be descended from Ham.)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 04:45 PM

The link posted by robomatic way back in message #2 was quite informative. I have to admit I didn't read all of it, but the (large) part I did read was interesting.

I've always found Mormonism intriguing and kind of mysterious. It seems to be unique among religions in recognizing revelation & prophecy in such recent (even current) times. Not that I *believe* any of it ~ I just view their perspective as unique and interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 04:25 PM

Thanks for that, Rapaire. But none since Constantine took over.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:53 PM

Actually, there have been three Popes who are know to be black:

Pope St. Victor, whose reign was 189-199;
Pope St. Militiades, 311-314, and
Pope St. Gelasius I, 492-296.

Accoriding to Catholic Church tradition, St. Augustine of Hippo was also black. More than a few blacks have reached sainthood.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Teresa
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:31 PM

I believe churches, despite their attempts to communicate the spiritual, mainly reflect culture. Where there is racism, it is codified in the tenets of the organized church. Where there is homophobia, it is often the same. No particular evils, IMO; simply mirroring the taboos/beliefs in common society, sad as that is in itself.


TeresaTeresa

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM

The best thing to be said for the Mormon position on this, is that they have finally made a definite, official change in their position.
Before anyone starts a bunch of really hateful blasting at them: there was little or nothing unique to Mormonism in the racial doctrine in the article robomatic linked to. This is all stuff that was widespread in all kinds of fundamentalist churches for far, far too many decades. The glaring examples I personally heard from pulpits happened to be focused more on condemnation of interracial marriage. Guam, 1966: a protestant serviceman telling about his "ministry" to racially mixed couples; first, he explained, you had to get them to admit that they sinned in mixing the races in the first place. Chicago, aboout 1972; the pastor of Moody Memorial Church speaking on mixed marriage: there is an old Testament admonition against harnessing an oxen and a mule together; the significance is obvious; people of different races shouldn't marry. The problem isn't Mormonism; it's the combination of fundamentalism and the kinds of minds that have gravitated to fundamentalism. Even closer to the root, the problem is evil, and our ability to rationalize evil attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM

As a non-Mormon, let me try to answer. The LDS Church always has a living prophet. It's built in. Because of this, doctrine can literally change over night. It changed when it became clear the US government wouldn't tolerate polygamy. For a number of reasons, it changed on the matter of blacks in the church. BTW, whites are now allowed in the Nation of Islam. Probably for the same reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM

Speak for yourself, Georgian.

I'd be interested to see the answers susu's looking for, but surely racism goes far beyohd the Mormons in the Christian community? (No black pope yet, brucie, but this is one area in which the Catholic church is more enlightened than some of the others.)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:41 PM

We are all Gods children...black white yellow...etc etc
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:37 PM

Here is a link that states that blacks are decendants of Cain and therefore not allowed to hold the LDS priesthood. I would really like to hear a Mormons perspective on this, as my parents are Mormon and I was baptized in the LDS church when I was 8 and I had heard these same statements from my dad. Are all Mormons taught this? http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:33 PM

For someone who says he/she has the answers....you sure make a good job of disguising the fact that you might have a brain!
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Blidn DRunk in Blind River
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM

Holy flip. I seen t his thread and I thout: My flippin' moment has ARRIVED! People want the answers, and I've flippin' well got 'em, eh?

Then I take another look. Somebody didn't spell it right. "Morons" ain't got an "M" in the middle, eh?

Then I realize it's some wierd flippin' religion, instead.. Gimme a break, eh? Them people ain't got the answers! Trust me on this. They are flippin' as bad as Jeehovaw's Witnesses, eh? I know. I met some. I dropped my pants at the front door, mooned 'em, and they took off like a greased fart down a drainpipe!

Try it. It works. I told ya I got the answers.

- BDiBR

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM

Not since the Borgias left town.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM

Next question; how does the "Genesis Group" fit in the greater LDS church? Are they reasonably representative, or a fringy faction.

I can't imagine that the linked publication will do anything to help public relations; I take it as saying that discrimination based on race is not racism. Say what?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM

Seen any Black Popes lately?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM

So long as all the other religious people accept that they belive all kinds of stuff simply because they choose to, then a gentle exploration of old rascism could procede.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM

I don't think so, pdq. Could be a very enlightening discussion. It surely has the potential for nastiness, but we will watch for that.

Carry on.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM

Probably true, unfortunately.