BS: A question for Mormons

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM

Okay, to all who "question my motives" I will say this, you DO NOT know me, I am not one to stir up trouble, this was a sincere inquiry and now I am sadly extremely sorry that I even posted this question. If I had wanted people to be ugly to me about my questioning the practices of the LDS church, I would have simply gone to my parents house so they could again tell me what a disappointment that I am to them because I do not share their views. I was wanting to get some other perspectives on the issue that would not lead to people making me feel bad for asking, and would give me answers that were not tainted with anger and disappointment so that I may better understand my parents and their beliefs and possibly bridge the distance and hurt feelings that they have. I have tried asking missionaries and they either do not have answers to my questions, or they seem to dance around the issues and then continually try to re-convert (for lack of a better phrase) me. The bishop at our local ward was the same way, and even my husband went to ask him questions, and he would not answer certain questions but would change the subject. I have never questioned the missionaries or the bishops motives in doing this as God, not I know their hearts and intentions. I think it is sad that I again have to expalin to someone why I do what I do. I really thought that if people read my posts that they would be able to understand them. This makes me wonder if all of you who "question my motives" are as cynical as you seem, thinking that all people who hear your beliefs and do not subscribe to them have some sort of hidden agenda. If that is the case, I feel truly sorry for you. I am not an evil person. My apologies to everyone. I will no longer post to this thread, if anyone else wants to keep it going, best of luck to you. If anyone else would like to ask me anything pm me, otherwise you will not get a response. Also, this is the end to my inquiring anything regarding the LDS church FROM ANYONE! If I meet anyone that is a member I will simply make it clear that I DO NOT wish to discuss their beliefs, I respect them, but I will not talk about them. Take care all, In Christs' Love Susanne

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 02:44 PM

"Guest, because you cannot trust the intent of those who make websites on religious issues. I cannot vouch for any site except for those associated with LDS.org"

Simple point, this was not a LDS rule dreamed up out of the ether, the reason I used the Bible was to prove the point that it is lineage not skin pigmentation.

As for the site those who put it up have backed up their claim with documented evidence,did you look at the grave stone pic?

The seventy are named in the Ensign and will be in Church records.

Lets hope that this puts an end to the racist issue.

"If I had wanted people to be ugly to me about my questioning the practices of the LDS church, I would have simply gone to my parents house so they could again tell me what a disappointment that I am to them because I do not share their views"

This speaks volumes to me. I understand where you come from, the pushing of doctine down your throat is not very nice. What frustrates me is the people who pontificate and put weird theories forward with some kind of authority.

I too have problems with the weird and wonderful statements people come out with, and the forceing of their will on others. More often than not these people display a great pride which is accompanied with ignorance.

More often than not many LDS forget the lesson Jesus taught us while on earth. He gave us the message of God but did not force us to accept it, many, LDS need to remember that, including your parents.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Com Seangan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM

"whites are now allowed in the Nation of Islam. Probably for the same reasons".

Why is this silly statement made on this thread. Whites were always welcome in Islam. Also blacks. The black Balal was one of Mohammed's most faithful followers.

Denigrading anyone's else's religion only indicates our own narrow mind. It is not in the interests of peace and good will towards our fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:19 PM

Susu. I reacted the way I did, because both Pogo and myself felt as though we'd stated quite clearly that such a topic simply was not relevant. I stated outright that I was not casting judgement on you, but felt that your comments were loaded because of the specific nature of the questioning.

There's an intersting scripture in the book of mormon by Jacob 4:14 in which the Jacob explains how the Jews of his generation went awry.

      verse 14. But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

The issue of Blacks and the Priesthood, or Polygamy, or any of the unusual doctrinal questions that have arisen from Kolob to whatever else you can dream up in order to fuel your doubts, is akin to God delivering unto men many things that which they cannot understand.

Do you honestly believe you can understand all things that come from God in this life?

Is there some scripture out there that garantees his followers a perfect understanding of all things in this life?

And if there is something that is some doctrinal question hidden under some rock somewhere, unturned and unexposed, why should it matter to how we must behave today?

Personally I'd much rather receive the light and knowledge required to get me through my generation, rather than dwell upon unanswered questions from forty years ago, but then, I'm in a different situation than you are...

That is why I spoke plainly about the issue. We were instructed at the time when the revelation came instructing all members to leave those old apologetics of Cain and such alone. They are irrelevant. Whether that is because they are false, or because they no longer apply or because they were distorted later by defensiveness or because they were misrepresented or for NONE of those reasons, WE DO NOT KNOW. It simply isn't a matter of public discourse, and anyone who tells you that they know the real definitive reason behind it is probably overstating themselves.

I've heard all sorts of reasons for it, in my day, including a very interesting story related to me by my Father-in-Law in which David O MacKay and the 12 had petitioned God to repeal the policy, and according to my father-in-law the answer they received was "Not yet, the Saints are not ready for the change."

It may be, thus, that the general membership of the church simply didn't care enough about the issue until all members were praying for an answer.

All of these things are supposition, and further they do not explain "WHY" such a policy was put in place, only that such a policy was taken seriously out of belief and respect for the way things were done in the past.

Does it bother you that mormons DON'T have all the doctrinal answers?

It is clear from the way that I explain this to you that I have opinions about this matter, but they are not doctrinal, nor are they relevant. I would exort you to forget anything you've been told about the seed of Cain or any such teachings, as they apply to mormons, because they are simply not a matter of interest or discours among mormons any longer, other than in the fringe cases where we run up against antimormon literature and those folks with an agenda who simply want to sew seeds of contention.

I called you a troll because after explaining how things work as best I knew, you "appeared to" (and I am more than willing to admit I may have read more into your text messages than you intended) completely disregard my comments and state that what I had written simply wasn't reality. My thoughts were, at the time, well if she knows reality and continues to ask the questions, then clearly she's a troll, because that's what trolls do... they know the answer before they ask it, they simply want to watch people squirm over what they perceive to be uncomfortable questioning.

And that is precisely why I called into question the matter of "Christian love". If you were raised mormon, they you must be aware of precisely how "christian love" has been used against mormons in the past. It was Christian love that killed many of the early members of the church, drove them from home after home, and spread intollerance. Preachers of intollerance, hiding behind the banner of christianity, pretending to do some great spiritual service in the name of God.

Quite frankly, I don't care who thinks I'm wrong in this, and who thinks I'm right. I am trying to live the restored Gospel according to my own understanding, and for mormons, much of their religion is as much about DOING as it is about some immutable dogma or belief structure.

We have no creeds; we have covenants.

We commit ourselves to live according to the laws we believe come from God, and to respect the authority from which came the restoration, believing that Christ will someday make all things known through the channels of revelation he has established in this age.

Thus when someone makes a big deal about a doctrine that is not taught in the church, it simply misses the point. As long as a member of the Mormon faith covenants to respecting the order of the restoration, it simply doesn't matter what they believe in terms of apologetic doctrines or notions.

That is why I encouraged you and anyone curious, in my first post, to acquaint themselves with LIVE mormons in their own communities. You will find a whole slew of beliefs and different takes, and at the same time they have a common belief structure in that they believe in the Book of Mormon as another Testament of Christ, they believe in the restoration of the Gospel through the prophet Joseph Smith, and they believe that there is a living prophet on the earth today, and that prophet is Gordon B. Hinckley. We believe that man must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized by one who holds the proper authority and then they will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and must endure to the end...

And then more or less anything goes...

Sigh...

Perhaps I'm overstating this too. . .

My point is that Being mormon is more than explaining obscure doctrines. I have known many LDS who hold all sorts of weird opinions about all sorts of doctrines and history of the church. They are faithful in their religion not because of a belief. There is no mormon Nicene "creed of polygamy" for example... Instead there's merely our day to day life, trying to adhere to principles of scripture that lead us, line upon line, precept upon precept slowly back to our Father in Heaven.

Family is important to LDS, you were raised with this notion, and now you're at odds with your parents. I have no simple solutions for this, because your parents probably DO feel betrayed or saddened by your choice to abandon the faith they love. All I can say is that in your quest to justify your actions, don't go looking for "Dirt" on mormons. I hope it's obvious and I don't have to explain further why this is a terribly destructive way to go about mending your relationship. If you are intent upon patching things up, you should look for common ground, and ignore the rest.

You bet there's plenty of "dirt" on mormons, or catholics, or protestants, or evangelicals, and plenty of reasons to hate them all, but we all share a common belief in Christ, and I believe Christ does not want us fighting regardless of doctrines we hold most sacred.

I hope that you have success in reaching out to your family. I hope you will seek out the LDS community in your area and get to know a few mormons in THIS generation. If you do this, you'll find ways to let go of whatever frustrations you feel, and true healing will occur.

Best regards,

--Ray