Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.

Subject: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 07:36 PM

The following rarely-sung verse in "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" is a beauty. We were Carol singing on Christmas Eve and I'd left it on the song sheets I'd made up for the occasion. Must have thought to myself, "That'll give them something to think about!". It did too. Everyone faltered midway and gave me horrified looks, especially the men.

Come, Desire of nations come,
Fix in us Thy humble home;
Rise, the Woman's conquering Seed,
Bruise in us the Serpent's head.
Adam's likeness now efface:
Stamp Thine image in its place;
Second Adam, from above,
Reinstate us in thy love.
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,
Glory to the Newborn King.!

Just thought I'd like to add it. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 08:20 PM

the Celebration Hymnal in wide use in the UK has some very strange alternatives. There is one verse for 'O little town of Bethlehem' that would never make it past the PC brigade these days!

I just can't find it at the moment!"

LTS

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 09:02 PM

You wouldn't mean this verse would you Liz?

Where children pure and happy
Pray to the blessed Child,
Where misery cries out to thee,
Son of the mother mild;
Where charity stands watching
And faith holds wide the door,
The dark night wakes, the glory breaks,
And Christmas comes once more.

It's generally sung in any carol services I've been to, but it seems to be missing from a surprising number of versions on line and in carol sheets. A pity because I think it's the key verse.

As for Joybell's rarely-sung verse, surely the really weird thing here would be the "horrified looks"? How do these guys cope with "Oh Come all you faithful"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 09:12 PM

The fourth verse of "Hark..." has several alternatives. Another (differing from 5th line on):

Come, Desire of nations, come,
Fix in us Thy humble home;
Rise, the woman's conquering Seed,
Bruise in us the serpent's head.
Now display thy saving power,
Ruined nature now restore;
Now in mystic Union join
Thine to ours, and ours to thine.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the newborn King!"

The third verse also has an alternative:

Mild he lays his Glory by,
Born that men no more may die,
Born to raise the sons of earth,
Born to give them second birth.
Risen with healing in his wings,
Light and life to all he brings,
Hail! the Sun of Righteousness!
Hail the heaven-born Prince of Peace!
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the newborn King!"

This Christmas, I sang "O Little credit card, you bring me Christmas Cheer,..."

All of these are in: Hymns and Carols

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 09:18 PM

The verse quoted by McGrath is in "Hymns and Carols of Christmas," linked above. Also in the "Oxford Book of Carols," 1928(1947) edition.
Not until I looked it up did I find out that it is usually sung to a different tune in England.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 09:28 PM

More years back than I care to remember, we sang

Oh little town of Bethlehem how still we see thee lie
Above thy deep and lifeless sleep the strontium clouds roll by.
Yet in thy dark streets shineth
The mushroom's glaring light,
The hopes and fears of all the years
Were blown to Hell tonight.

Plus ca change....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 11:51 PM

"O Little credit card, you bring me Christmas Cheer,..."

Oh yes please - perhaps in a more relevant thread though...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 11:56 PM

Both those rarely heard verses are sung in my home Church in Elbridge, NY. Not rare to me in any case. Nor do I care a wit how PC they may or may not be.

Don

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 12:18 AM

But some may not care a whit for your wit- but just don't lose your wits.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 12:45 AM

I beleive I still have at least half the ones I started with. The secret is to frequently whet what wits you have.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Stephen R.
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 11:26 AM

Come, Desire of nations come,
Fix in us Thy humble home;
Rise, the Woman's conquering Seed,
Bruise in us the Serpent's head.
Adam's likeness now efface:
Stamp Thine image in its place;
Second Adam, from above,
Reinstate us in thy love.
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,
Glory to the Newborn King.!

Not as weird as it may sound. The mortif of Christ as the Second Adam is ancient. The reference is to Genesis 3:15. The Serpent has enticed Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, Eve in turn has enticed Adam, and thus the ruin of the human race is accomplished. God says to the Serpent: '. . . I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it [the woman's seed] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise her heel' (AV, which was doubtless the translation that Charles Wesley of the 'weird verse' had in mind).

The idea here is that Christ reverses the Fall, thereby bruising the Serpent's (Satan's) head and fulfilling the words of Genesis 3:15 in a profound way. The Woman's conquering Seed is quite explicable in this context: Christ is, through his Mother, a descendent of Eve, and conquers the Serpent; hence he is 'the Woman's conquering Seed'. (It is the Serpent and not the Woman whom he conquers, in case anyone misundersood that). Adam's likeness after the fall included subjection to the dominion of death, through which Satan rules the world (see Romans 5). By his Resurrection, Christ destroys the dominion of death and restores the true image.

It all makes sense. (If you don't want a theology lesson, don't post messages about weird verses containing theology!)

Stephen (Pravoslavnyi, as you may recall from last year's thread).

PS: here's an exercise for you: parse the stanza of 'Silent Night' that goes:

Silent night, holy night,
Son of God, love's pure light
Radiant beams from thy holy face.
With the dawn of redeeming grace,
Jesus, Lord, at thy birth.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM

Statues of the Immaculate Conception show Mary with her foot on the head of a serpent.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM

"I will put emnity between thee and the woman"- So started the war between men and women.
James Thurber's cartoons illustrated it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: AggieD
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 12:15 PM

Stephen R our choir sings that verse, It really isn't that hard to parse!!

I wonder how many people know the whole correct tune to Silent Night though, It is different to the one that most people sing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 03:45 PM

Several parodies sung to "Hark..." Three are in Hymns and Carols of Christmas," linked above.

There have been several translations of the six verses of "Silent Night" as transcribed by Joseph Mohr. Our usual verse 2 is a free translation of verse 6.
The repeat of the last two lines of each verse (with different notes) is seldom done.
Original music by Gruber including the repeats (with audio) and text for verses 1, 2 and 6 (not 3) here: Stille Nacht

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 05:19 PM

Q's third verse isn't an alternative, it's just a horrid jumble of the "real" lines, made by some ignorant printer. It appears in the carol sheet put out by our local rag here, probably pirated from somewhere else, and is impossible to sing to the tune.

Subject: Lyr Add: HARK! THE HERALD ANGELS SING
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 08:40 PM

The "Hark" 3rd verse is printed as an alternate in "Hymns and Carols of Christmas," no source indicated. The 1st four lines are actually verse 5 of Sandys, and the last are his verse 4 in changed order.
It is part of someone's revision of William Sandys, "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing, For Christmas Day," 1833, "Christmas Carols Ancient and Modern."
Here are his five verses:

Lyr. Add: HARK! THE HERALD ANGELS SING (Sandys)
William Sandys, 1833

1. Hark! the Herald Angels sing,
Glory to the new-born King,
Peace on earth and mercy mild,
God and sinner reconcil'd.

Chorus (after each verse):
Hark! the Herald Angels sing,
Glory to the new-born King.

2. Joyful all ye nations rise,
Join the triumph of the skies,
With the angelic hosts proclaim,
Christ is born in Bethlehem.

3. Christ by highest Heaven ador'd,
Christ the everlasting Lord!
Late in time behold him come,
Offspring of a Virgin's womb.

4. Hail the heaven-born Prince of Peace!
Hail the *Sun of righteousness!
Light and life to all he brings,
Risen with healing in his wings.

5. Mild he lays his glory by,
Born that man no more may die,
Born to raise the sons of earth,
Born to give them second birth.

*Sometimes mis-printed as 'Son,' which was used in Wesley's original.

In the DT, the verses are combined into three, eliminating a couple of choruses, and, in a peculiar second verse, is included a verse found in a broadside from Cornwall, but not used by Sandys.

Veil'd in Flesh the Godhead *He,
Hail th' incarnate Deity;
Pleas'd as man with man **appear,
Jesus our Immanuel here.
* not see! ** replaced with 'to dwell,' an option used in the DT.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 08:51 PM

Are Wesley's ten verses of "Hark" sung anymore?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Burke
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 09:08 PM

This version at
CCEL gives a new look at this carol. I looks like Wesley wrote 4 line verses that have been combined into 8 line verses with the first 2 lines reused as a chorus. The 2nd half of the usual v.1 is missing. The 2-3, 4-5, & 6-7 combinations are the way I'm used to singing them.

"Pleased as man with men to appear," just does not seem like it could ever have been right. It's 8, instead of 7 syllables. Q's 3rd verse puts 5 before 4, then sings 4 from the bottom up. All lines are 7 syllables so they can be sung that way, just seems odd.

I'll try to check Wesley's works at work tomorrow & see what's there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 09:33 PM

When I was in church at Christmas all the verses to Hark were sung. And to my great pleasure they sang Stille Nacht in German -- and to the original melody, too.

Subject: Lyr Add: HARK HOW ALL THE WELKIN RINGS (C Wesley)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 09:56 PM

I have Wesley's original in front of me, so I'll save you the trouble.

Lyr. Add: HARK HOW ALL THE WELKIN RINGS
Charles Wesley, 1739

Hark how all the welkin rings,
Glory to the King of kings;
Peace on earth and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconciled.

Joyful all ye nations rise,
Join the triumph of the skies;
Universal Nature say,
"Christ the Lord is born today.

Christ by highest heaven ador'd,
Christ the everlasting Lord;
Late in time behold him come,
Offspring of a Virgin's womb!

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,
Hail the incarnate deity!
Pleased as man with men appear,
Jesus! Our Immanuel here!

Hail, the heavenly Prince of Peace!
Hail, the Sun of Righteousness!
Light and life to all he brings,
Risen with healing in his wings.

Mild he lies His glory by,
Born that man no more may die,
Born to raise the sons of earth:
Born to give them second birth.

Come, Desire of nations come,
Fix in us thy humble home;
Rise, the woman's conquering seed,
Bruise in us the serpent's head.

Now display thy saving power,
Ruined nature now restore;
Now in mystic union join
Thine to ours and ours to thine.

Adam's likeness, Lord efface;
Stamp thy image in its place.
Second Adam from above
Reinstate us in thy love.

Let us thee, though lost, regain
Thee, the life, the inner Man:
O! to all thyself impart,
Form'd in each believing heart.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 06:48 PM

Well a lot of good discussion here.
It was actually the line "Rise, the Woman's conquering Seed", that had the men worried. I should have mentioned that we were singing in a small country town where things change very slowly. It's not so long, out here, since women were not allowed in shearing sheds, for example. You still hear "Ducks on the pond!" sometimes. Women are considered equals now but "conquering" is a bit radical. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 07:31 PM

Leave it to a smart--- son-in-law of mine to read "bruise in us the serpent's head, grin, and say "Rape was encouraged in those days?"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 07:38 PM

Oh dear, Q, Is that why the fellas were so worried, do you think? Better lie low for a bit. Walk demurely behind True-Love when we go to town. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM

StephenR's comments on the "second Adam" are also reglected in the hymn "Praise to the Holiest in the Height", in the verse:

"O, loving wisdom of our God,
When all was sin and shame.
A second Adam to the fight,
And to the rescue came."

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 07:58 PM

Since "conquering seed" clearly means Jesus, rather than Mary, I can't see where the problem would lie. However I suppose the juxtaposition of "woman" and "conquering" in the same phrase...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Cats
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 12:41 PM

In the Padstow Carols there is a different chorus , probably a very different tune as well,

Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah,
Hallelujah, Praise the Lord x2,

and we know it as, Harky, Harky.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM

Cf. "The Battle Hymn of the Republic":

Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: The evil of most days is more than sufficient thereunto. :||

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:09 PM

Yes McGrath, I think you're right. It's all in the way the line is heard rather than the logic of it. Also maybe it's that "....the Woman's conquering seed...." implies ownership by her somehow. And does it depend on a man's relationship with his mother how he feels about that, I wonder?

Cats, Is "Harky" a contraction of "Hark Thee"?

Joe F, yes I've always been quite taken with that particular Biblical/mythological image in the "Battle Hynm of the Republic". Always a bit sad for the serpent though. They do get such a bad press. The ones around here are terrified of being stepped on. Maybe they scare each other by singing that line at snake gatherings.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Burke
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:14 PM

From what I've come across, I doubt that C. Wesley's original words were ever used much. This is one hymn that was changed early & often.

Here's what I found.
First published by Wesley in 1739 in Hymns and Sacred Poems.

George Whitefield published it in 1753, omitting verses 8 & 10 and beginning the alt. process:
V. 1 Lines 1 & 2 changed to Hark, the herald...
v. 5 line 1 heavenly changed to heaven born

M. Madan's Psalms and Hymns, 1860 Changed the last 2 lines of v. 2:
With th' angelic host...

In 1791 a Cambridge University printer included it as one of 5 hymns added to a printing of the Brady & Tate's New Version, thus passing it to the Anglican Church. The N.V. printing changed it from verses of 4 lines to 3 verses of 8 lines and the 2 line refrain added. This version did not include the 7/9 combination that started this thread off.

Nineteenth century printings include versions with 4 line verses that omit & rearrange the various verses; 8 line verses without the chorus; and 10 line versions.

The change of the "Pleased as man..." line came later. Hymns ancient and Modern included the change in 1861.

I'm confused reading my source here. "These alterations, now generally accepted, were given in J. Kempthorne's Select Portions of Psalms, &c, 1810, no. 27, but they are possibly older than that collection." This is in a new paragraph immediately below "man to dwell" so I think he's saying it was around by 1810. He gives no example of a printing between 1810 & 1861, which seems a long time. At the very least this change was later than the other changes & did not replace Wesley's original as quickly as the other changes did.

The 4 line verse version of Whitefield/Madan was included in the Supplement to Wesleyan Hymn Book 1830. Verse 2 was also omitted at that time. I think that accounts for the 7 verse version I found at CCEL.

There were also other alterations published, but they did not gain acceptance the way the Whitefield & Madan changes did.

@1880 John Julian wrote "The use of this hymn in its various forms has extended to all English speaking countries. It is found in a greater number of hymnbooks, both old and new, than any other of C. Wesley's compositions; and, amongst English hymns, it is equalled in popularity only by Toplady's "Rock of Ages" and Bp. Ken's Morning and Evening hymns, and is excelled by none. In literary merit it falls little, if anything, short of this honor."

My source for most of what I've given here is:
Julian, John. A dictionary of Hymnology. New York: Scribner's, 1892. At >1600 pages & small type, a truly impressive work.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM

Doesn't look like anyone has posted "Harky, Harky." It is mentioned in one or more of the Cornish threads (4135, 40451, 41296 checked for lyrics).

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Cats
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:36 PM

Q - I did mention it a couple of messages ago!
Joybell - It's always written as harky and presumably is a derivative but to be honest I don't know. By the way, I'm processing pikkies this weekend so one should be winging it's way on Sunday.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 03:27 PM

Yes, Cats, but I was looking for the lyrics to be posted, not just mentioned. Would you volunteer?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Weird seldom sung verse in Hark! etc.
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 06:23 PM

Yes please, Cats. The words would be great. Do you have them? If not I could probably get them from the Cornish Choir here. I'll look forward to the pics. Thank you. Cheers, Joy