BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:14 PM

Any nation can justify what it does as in the "National interest". I realize I used the broad brush approach, but I stand by my statement.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:19 PM

NEcessity for the good of the nation is the most undifferntiated and unspecific of explanations. It is the one Bush Boy uses more than any other, without substantiating details or particulars, which makes him an air-headed windbag. And a liar.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:22 PM

Nationalism is one basis for most wars. A more important basis, however, is the search for profit and control of material resources...such as arable farmland, oil, water, timber, etc...

Nationalism is an arbitrary cultural notion that results in the drawing of fictional borderlines on the natural World and the raising of competitive armies and systems within those borderlines. It is a handy excuse with which to clothe the search for material gains and political hegemony.

Another basis of some wars is differing ideas about religion and other forms of cultural heritage.

Another is racial or tribal identity or even language!

Another is competition between different social theories, such as capitalism and communism.

All of the above divisions are foolish and essentially arbitrary. We could do well to celebrate our diversity, rather than being frightened by it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

Nationalism is very handy when you want to get people to support a war you might want to wage for some quite other reason.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

This rig keeps swallowing my posts. Anyway, my point is that any nation can justify anything it wants to do by declaring the act, "In the national interest". When it gets down to brass tacks, no nation really gives a shit about any other nation if its own interests are at stake.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:38 PM

Little Hawk, you're crazy -- our diversity is the most scary thing about us, to us. If people would only wise up and adjust so they were more like us, all this diversity wouldn't be an issue, and they would be happier for it, too!!!

If God didn't want us to enlighten those not yet up to our high standards of civilization, why'd he put use here, I ask you? Huh, wise-guy?? Riddle me that!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:54 PM

Heh! Heh! Yessssss, Amos, of course everything will be perfect when everyone is persuaded to become exactly like us...the GOOD people! :-)

Just kill all them that won't, I say!!!! (snarl!)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 09:56 PM

Couldn't we just maim them instead? That way they cart themselves off.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 12:50 PM

Brucie, Brucie:

Maiming them is not a good tactic because it makes them into martyrs with their voiceboxes still operational. Look at the consequences in Iraq!!

Best thing is to nuke and pave.

Right?

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:58 PM

Socialism has been part of the American tradition in politics for many years. There are different kinds. For example, Social Security is one. Regulatory agencies of the government that protect citizens from private corporate abuse of the environment (EPA), regulation from the harmful effects of many drugs on the market that are indiscriminately promoted by the pharmaceutical companies and watchdogs over the issuance of harmful food products (FDA),
The protection and rights of servicemen and women to receive just benefits for their service, (VA) unemployment insurance, the right of unions to arbitrate and protect the working poor are all vestiges of socialist thought. Whenever socialism and capitalism have a healthy marriage, we see a superior form of government as we have here in the US that acts as a beacon of light for the rest of the world.

This is true nationalism. This nationalism entails the defense of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights from frivolous tampering through the red-herring issues such as gay marriage and flag burning. This nationalism protects the Jew and the Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist, Zoroastrian and agnostics, atheists and secular free-thinkers from the bullying theo-fascists that would force their brand of Christianity down the throats of other people and denegrate their beliefs.

The Neo-cons practice their brand of socialism by funding government agencies such as Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. When socialism and nationalism become perverse, it gives rise to institutions such as the Nationalist Socialist Party which was a failed experiment in the thirties in Germany. We see some vestiges of this now creeping into the policies of our country.

Liberals are caring and thinking people. We are not given to marching lockstep into ideologies but give new ideas careful weight. We care about children and their right to health insurance and a decent education regardless of their economic status. We care about the elderly,
And we don't want to see their care compromised and stolen through the wanton gutting of their Social Security. We believe in security for pregnant women through pre-natal and post-natal aid, planned parenthood, and many of us oppose the death penalty because we are Pro Life.

These are all moral issues that we believe in.
Our nationalism and respect for the marriage of capitalism and socialism defines us as social Democrats.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM

"I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!" Peter says to his Bush-loving evangelical friends at work everyday! Sort of like saying "I'm a Lumberjack-and I'm OK!

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

"

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 06:05 PM

Lumberjacks are not being attacked by Neo-con wingers.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:17 PM

A vote of thanks and a toast to Frank, who is getting it said like it is in the face of tornados of twist and ululations of alteration and founts of falsification from every hand.

Thank you, Frank. Youse is a gent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:11 PM

Since the term "liberal" can means anyuthing from a kind of fascist to a kind of anarchist, with all positions in between, depending where and when, it seems to me a rather silly one to use either as an insult or as a boast.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

Well said, Frank.

It has been noted by statesmen, philosophers, and religious leaders alike that the true measure of a society is not its power and wealth, but how well it cares for those citizens who, for whatever reason, are unable to care for themselves.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:18 PM

But the troops here have been defining what they mean by the term as they go, Mcg. You're welcome to toss in a better over-all term for people of similar principles.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:34 PM

Words draw their meaning from popular agreement and their own history. People like Coulter, for example, try hard to twist those words ignoring thier legacy. They confuse liberalism with a lot of other things including communism, spinelessness, fiscal stupidity, and ineptiotude. Liberals, like anyone else may fall into any of these categories, but not as a function of thier liberalism. The word has a viable and accurate definituion in spite of any efforts to twist that for political manipulation.

Here are a few:

A liberal is a person who supports moderate social progress and reform.
wwwtafe.lib.rmit.edu.au/localgov/313/glossary.html

one who advocates greater freedom
www.wolverhamptonarchives.dial.pipex.com/acc_local_women_glossary.htm

Policies favouring reform and progress especially in government and economics.
www.cbe.ab.ca/b836/curriculum/social/socialgloss.html



A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:28 PM

Don't Think Like an Elephant by George Lakoff. In this thin but all important volume, Lakoff (a professor of linguistics) dicusses how, within the last few decades, Repulicans of the more neo-con stripe have learned how to "frame the argument." This involves implying or assuming certain definitions for words (generally by grafting well-chosen adjectives to the key words, such as "bleeding-heart liberal" or "tax-and-spend liberal") and then steering you into accepting their definitions. That way, you wind up arguing on their terms, and in that situation, you just can't win.

Never, he says, accept the other person's frame. Never try to argue with him using his terms. Answer him in your terms.

Kerry got snookered on this repeatedly during the campaign. Bush did not. He just kept repeating the same three or four things (carefully framed) over and over again.

Read the book. Most enlightening!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:31 PM

Blackening others' names by redefining the terms of the dialogue is not a new art but I have never seen it used so viciously and widely as it has been used by the ruthless Bush machine.

If he could see someway to get away with it, there would be jackboots in the town square celebrating his juggernaut steam-roller triumphs over others, as (of course) a "uniter" -- meaning, someone who builds a united front by forcefully overwhelming all opposition and forcing it into line.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:36 PM

Amos, I suggest you keep a close eye on Iran. The Bush administration, emboldened by its apparent re-election, may be looking in that direction sooner than people think. Do a Google search using the phrase "attack on Iran" and find some interesting reading. If you think the war in Iraq is a mess, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:40 PM

22,100 hits on the phrase, so it ovbviously had everyone's wind up at some point around late November.

"UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has said it is "inconceivable" that America would try to bomb Iran.

There has been speculation about whether the newly re-elected George Bush will be more hawkish over Iran.

Pointing to talks with Tehran, Mr Straw said: "I don't see any circumstances in which military action would be justified against Iran, full stop.""

Hope he's right.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:46 PM

Oh, I'm not saying it would be justified... :-) Just that it may well happen. Aggressors don't like sitting around idle too long without a new glorious "victory" to aim for. That's how Hitler got himself into Yugoslavia, Greece, North Africa, Russia, and finally...the bunker.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 10:24 PM

CNN's curtrent view:

Journalist: U.S. planning for possible attack on Iran

White House says report is 'riddled with inaccuracies'

Sunday, January 16, 2005 Posted: 9:23 PM EST (0223 GMT)


(NOTICE -- The White house does not specify the inaccuracies.)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration has been carrying out secret reconnaissance missions to learn about nuclear, chemical and missile sites in Iran in preparation for possible airstrikes there, journalist Seymour Hersh said Sunday.

The effort has been under way at least since last summer, Hersh said on CNN's "Late Edition."

In an interview on the same program, White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett said the story was "riddled with inaccuracies."

"I don't believe that some of the conclusions he's drawing are based on fact," Bartlett said.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:51 PM

This thread sucks.

I should have let it die but I can't help say that there are some liberals here who are really going blah, blah, blah.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:26 PM

Well yippee hooray! Our resident dipshit just dropped by with his dipper full of shit.