Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)

Subject: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: nickp
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:21 PM

Well, having spent many happy (?) years getting round PAL video (I'm UK) and format transfer to NTSC, I have stepped into the world of that round silvery thing. (No - I'm not wiping my original tapes just making them more accessible).

I'm using a pc with a mix of packages to do my dvds and am fairly happy with first efforts although I learn a little more each time.

My question is - am I right in assuming that PAL & NTSC are no longer relevant as long as the dvd player can 'talk' to the TV? So, a dvd file is a dvd file is a dvd file.... and it's the playback technology that defines where it can be played.

Note that I'm not talking about regions here (US is 1, UK etc is 2 and so on) as these are region free.

Any thoughts welcome.

Thanks, Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:31 AM

Wrong. PAL and NTSC are very relevant.   There are DVD players that are multi-standard, but if you do not have one you will only be able to play the standard of the deck.

Regions are very confusing. The regions were designed by studios to prevent material from being played in parts of the globe where it has not been released.   For instance, South America is Region 4, which also includes AustraliaAustralia and New Zealand, Mexico, and the Caribbean. The standards in those countries vary between PAL and NTSC. A region 4 NTSC DVD will play in decks in Mexico, but the same disc will not play in a PAL Region 4 in Brazil or Australia.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: Grab
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:40 AM

No!!!

Some TVs are multi-standard, in which case you're OK - you can put any standard of signal into them, and they'll play it.

But most TVs aren't - most in Britain/Europe are PAL only. This means that NTSC DVDs will play in black-and-white. However there is a mode called PAL60 which lets the DVD player change NTSC to PAL60 (via some magic, I don't know how) and your PAL TV can then play it. So if you think you're going to be playing US DVDs, make sure your DVD player supports PAL60.

Before I bought our DVD player, I used to think the same - that "multi-region" means you're OK. But when I came to buy a DVD player, I did a little research on the web (as I usually do before buying anything expensive) and found out how wrong I was!

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM

Play the DVD in your pc - that will work.

Or, get some software -plenty available- and rip the dvd - then record the resulting files to a blank.


easy.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:18 PM

While some TV's will accept both standards, your playback device (DVD) needs to be able to convert the signal.   You can't put a PAL DVD into an NTSC player and have it play on a multi-standard TV set.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:40 PM

To test this theory, I ordered a US DVD. I specified it to be a region 1 DVD (so I expect, if there was an issue about it being NTSC or PAL, it would have been NTSC (and incidentally what about SECAM?)). It arrived with a label specifying it was region 1.

I put it in a region 1 Computer DVD drive. It would not play.

I installed a program called DVD region Killer - it worked.

Then I bought a DVD layer to go with my TV. It specifically said it was region 1. I asked the retailer for the "hack" and they said they weren't allowed by law to provide it (I wonder about this bit) but the factory in Germany would. I rang the factory in Germany, who laughed and told me to call European Support in the UK.

I rang European support in the UK who said "Why not try it first?" I did. It worked. So how many US DVD's are likely to have PAL on them.

Oh, the TV is not NTSC compatible, it's PAL only.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:07 PM

Richard- again, it is not the TV set that matters - it is the DVD player that does the conversion. Your TV set is a "RECEIVER" - it will play the standard it is capable of receiving only.   While there are some TV sets with built-in converters, it is more common for the DVD player to have the converter.

I would bet that if you are in Europe, you purchased a DVD player that is multi-standard. An NTSC or PAL will play, provided it is for the proper region.

Also, PC's are neither PAL nor NTSC so it is dependent on the software you use to convert the standard to a signal that will show on your monitor.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:28 PM

oh yes... SECAM. As far as I'm aware, there are no such things as SECAM DVD's. PAL and SECAM share the same scanning pattern but they output the colors differently. Modern TV sets in SECAM countries will accept PAL signals.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: nickp
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM

Bother! I had hoped it would be simpler!

The dvd I had plays NTSC & PAL on a PAL tv without any change in settings - and would play on NTSC with a menu change. Hence my hopes.

I've also been able to hack it so there's no region check.

Looks like I have much more experimentation ahead. I have a planned trip to the US in a few weeks. I'll take a copy and see how it reacts.

Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:35 PM

"menu change"????   I'm not sure what you are referring to. As we said earlier, the region is not the issue so forget about "hacking".

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: GUEST,nickp cookieless
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:39 PM

Sorry Ron, just filling in the gaps for the technically minded. Yes, I know 'region' isn't the issue here, but as it got mentioned...

My player has menu options to output to either format TV systems, that's what I meant by 'menu change' although (of course) unless I take the unit travelling it stays set to PAL output. But it was bought in the US and also had the advantage of twin voltage so I was able to test it before I returned.

Cheers, Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:59 PM

In Australia - standard TV is PAL (with some difference s to ther PAL standards), some TV sets do come with an NTSC playablity input capability, but not all.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 07:24 PM

Nick,

It sounds as if your DVD player is not converting, it is just passing on the format - meaning it is outputing PAL DVD to PAL TV and NTSC DVD to NTSC TV. What a true multi-standard player has is a built in converter that will play NTSC DVD to PAL TV, or vice versa.

Have you tried any other NTSC disc's in your player?

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: s&r
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:24 AM

Almost any permutation is availabe: you can buy a multi standard TV, you can buy a multi standard multi region DVD. There's some interesting info in the links on this site It's also worth noting that all PALs and all SECAMs are not the same technical specification.

When I was a TV engineer in another life we believed
NTSC = Never Twice The Same Colour
PAL = Pure And Lifelike
SECAM = Strategic Exercise Counter-AMerican

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 12:25 PM

PAL and SECAM are totally different systems, but PAL is a slightly modified version of NTSC, which just swaps the phase of the luminance on alternate lines (That's what the acronym PAL stands for). The reason is to cancel out colour differences which NTSC was prone to have.

There are several different NTSC systems available, using a different number of lines on the screen. USA uses 525 lines and 60 pictures/second, I think, as opposed to UK/Europe with 625/50. Japan is different again.

This was all due to the US and Europe choosing different frequencies for their a/c power supply. In the old days, the TV frame rate (pictures/second) was locked to the mains, as the frequency was well regulated.

There are at least 8 versions of PAL worldwide, mainly differing in the sound subcarrier frequency, so you may get picture but no sound. UK is 5.5Mhz, Europe is 6Mhz, and it was soemtimes possible to retune the sound. Presumably the differences were specified in the old days to protect domestic equipment makers from foreign competition, but it backfired somewhat by limiting their export markets.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: GUEST,Nickp cookieless
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 03:34 PM

Hi Ron, yes I've a couple of NTSC dvds that play happily on the PAL tv, so sounds like I have a very helpful player but one that will make testing difficult. But hey, it's only time (lots of!) and a modest cost per disc to experiment.

Thanks for the input folks, its fascinating what we all collectively know.

Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: s&r
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 06:18 PM

Pavane - it's the chrominance signal that's phase alternated.

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:27 PM

Hmm: I used to have a chart, but no longer. Does anywhere in Europe still use NTSC?

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

I don't believe there are any countries in Europe that use NTSC.   

The reason why each Europe has PAL and USA has NTSC is based on power supplies.   The United States power supply runs at a steady 60HZ and European power supplies run at 50HZ.   

To broadcast pictures, which are in reality individual frames, you need run the pictures at a steady pace and at a pace that will prevent flicker.   The reference to keep everything in sync is power supplies - which remain steady. Each "frame" of video consists of two fields. In the United States, the standard is 30 frames of video per second, or 60 fields of video per second - and that is timed to 60HZ.   In Europe, or PAL countries, there are 25 frames per second, or 50 fields - and that is timed to 50HZ.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each system. For NTSC, there is less flicker because of the higher frame rate. People used to watching PAL probably do not notice it, but Americans may catch the flicker. PAL video can be a bit noisey because it has a worse signal to noise ratio.    PAL does handle color hues better than NTSC, and the clarity on NTSC is reduced because there are also less scan lines.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 02:43 AM

S&R Yes, slip of the finger! Otherwise it wouldn't affect the colour!

And the mains frequency/frame rate has nothing to do with the difference between PAL and NTSC. I think the Japanese use (or used) NTSC but on a different frequency to the USA. I used to have a 3-system VCR (Betamax) which could use it.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: s&r
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 03:57 AM

Here is a world wide list of standards.

Pre colour the frame rate was locked to the mains. This meant that any mains derived hum or interference was stationary on the screen and so less visible. With the advent of colour the frequency stability needed for the chrominance subcarrier was higher than could be derived from the mains standard. The master frequency became the chrominance subcarrier. The mains was no longer used as a reference although the same nominal 50Hz standard was used. PAL had advantages where signal was weak and multipath reception was a problem.

Flicker was more of a problem because of interlaced scanning. The picture repetition rate was 25 Hz in two successive field scans of 20ms each. This produced a 25Hz flicker that could be particularly evident on CRT displays where the glass bent over at the top of the screen, producing a magnified image.

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 04:55 AM

I;m such a newbie in relation to Video that I have heaps of questions, but just a few to start with. I have a Euro brand DVD recorder, two PS2's that play DVD's and a PAL/NTSC TV. I also have a DVD player module for my PC that I've never installed.

The DVD recorder has all sorts of inputs, including S-video and the Euro standard (large) rectangular plug and sockets.

- If I PLAY a commercial DVD on my PC and provide an S-Viseo input to my DVD I assume that it will NOT allow me to record it?

- From what was said above, if I RIP the commercial DVD and then connect S-video, I gather the DVD WILL let me record it.

- I don't own one but if I were to connect a small TV transmitter to the output of a PLAYING device, PC/PS2 or another DVD player, will the copy protection gizmos stop me from recording this DVD via my TV aerial input?

- My uninstalled PC Benq DVD player has a limit on the number of times I can change Region number. Is this what the Region Killer software defeats?

Enough for now. Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: GUEST,John in Brisbane
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 10:10 AM

I've learned a bit in the last few weeks. Merely an intellectual pursuit of course.

- I haven't tried a TV transmitter, but did the next best thing and connected an RF Modulaor to the DVD output with input via the antenna sovket on my DVDR. Didn't work with commercial DVD's with Macrovision encoding. And of course it worked fine with home recorded DVD's.

- TV transmitter/receiver units are available here from about $USD50 and operate on 2.4 Mhz band. If the RF modulator trick didn't work then actually sending the RF signal via the ether won't either, according to expert sources.

- Jaycar (Australia) distributes a kit for an Enhancer/Stabilizer which has a very solid hi-tech reputation that apparently works very well for about $USD65. From memory it will only work for PAL TV signals. jaycar.com.au Not a job for beginners, but for anyone in the electronics industry this is reputed to be a one evening job.

- Using a super cheapo DVD player of Chinese origin and nondescript brand name does work and it's likely to be Region indifferent as well - plus work for both PAL and NTSC. You probably won't find one at chain stores, but at clearance houses and the like and will cost about $USD50 complete with remote and connecting cables.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: GUEST,John in Brisbane
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 10:36 AM

Here's a link to the Jaycar Stabilizer, http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101622/article.html

For the real techies you find a reference there to the original electronic design article.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: nickp
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 01:10 PM

I too have been experimenting since my original query.

Using Nero I appear to be able to process the PAL input (camcorder converted into an avi file) as either PAL or NTSC (if I want one of each I have to transcode twice). Then I appear to be able to write an ordinary dvd without any change in settings. Both play on my dvd player - the PAL exactly as I would expect (it is my native TV type) and the NTSC is a bit jerky as it pans (which I am used to from tapes and is due to the extra frame being added or dropped - can't remember which). As I'm off to the US for a visit in 4 weeks I'll take a possible NTSC one and see how it plays.

I'll report back!

Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: nickp
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:04 AM

Well now, an update as promised...

Took the NTSC dvd - as transcoded from PAL in Nero - to the U.S. and it played OK on both a laptop and a dvd-to-tv player. It was a little jerky (the switch of formats) and maybe just a fraction more so than a vhs converted tape (by chance I already had sent a vhs copy of the same item to my host a few years ago so could do a direct compare). However the BIG difference was in the colour - the vhs blurs/glares (typical copying problem) while the dvd doesn't.

So, mainly a success.

What I should have done but didn't think of until too late, was take a PAL copy and see how it played on the laptop (should be fine??) and on the tv player (probably wouldn't but I can't say).

Next plan is to do up something different in both formats and post them over to get a second opinion.

Again, watch this space!

Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: nickp
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 03:01 PM

And maybe a final comment which may be of use to someone.

Just got back from another trip. This time I took 2 discs - one PAL (native to the original camera) and an identical content one converted into NTSC using Nero.

Played both in the U.S. player but to my surprise the PAL one played smoothly while the NTSC had the slight jerkiness that I'd seen before.

So, I reckon the answer is that dvd is dvd and it's the player/tv match that does the clever bit. No need to do more than create the dvd in the native format - after all, that takes long enough.

Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 03:39 PM

Nick - when you say that both played in the U.S. player, what kind of player are you referring to?

The Nero converter will have conversion artifacts. If you look closely, I will bet that you will find the cuts are interpolated as quick dissolves - usually 3 frames.   There are professional converters that have motion compensators to eliminate the smearing and jerky effect that you notice.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: nickp
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 03:34 PM

Hi Ron, sorry about the delay.

The player was an off the shelf Toshiba. Nothing special but I don't know the model.

Nero (I think) either adds an extra copy of each 5th frame (to make 6) or loses every 6th depending on which way it is converting. No doubt someone will correct me. It works - for the price - even though a bit brutal.

Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 08:01 PM

Converters (physical optical ones) to move from film to TV used to project the originating material onto a screen or a rotating multi-sided reflective prism to generate the smoothness. It is theoretically possible to build a digital converter that does similar things, but the more complicated gadget, the more expensive.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:49 AM

A friend here in Perth has built the Jaycar box that John in Brisbane talked about and it works really well. Just play the DVD in any garden variety DVD player with cables connected to your DVD Recorder via the little box. No different to the days when we used to tape vinyl onto cassette. Apparently the theory says that the copy should not be as good as those ripped using a PC but neither of us could detect any difference on his mega sized screen.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: GUEST,A regular Mudcatter
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:47 PM

Okay, in the for what it's worth department, posted without any understanding of the difference in these types of files on my part, I want to call your attention to a handy little free program that works wonders to shift regions and record DVDs. It has to be downloaded from offshore (telling you something about its legality in the US, because U.S. places can't even link to it, so I won't either) but it works great. (I am going to use "*" in the name here. I don't want search engines coming to Mudcat if someone on the outside goes looking for this program by name.) Here is a link that those in the U.S. will find helpful: Follow the first unsponsored link in this TinyURL link.

This program breaks the copy process into a couple of steps, so it isn't the direct copy that various DVD burner programs balk at. The disk to be copied is analysed and copied to your hard drive. It uses Nero technology, and I understand there are a number of Nero partial programs that can be downloaded for free or test for a period of time. I have a full Nero program so never had to fool with that part. Once the disk has loaded, the second stage is to burn it. I think you might be able to follow the directions below to set up the files the way you want, then close out the program, go back in via Windows Explorer, and tell your regular burning software to copy those files to the DVR.

You start DVD ******, then put your movie in. Click on "Open Disk" and chances are that your computer will offer to open it with your resident viewing program. Cancel that, and DVD ****** will run a tiny "preview" of the scenes of the movie to analyse it. Then you decide how you want to copy it.

You can choose the "Full Disk" button to copy the whole thing with all of the crap the studios put on, the warnings, the menus, the previews, or you can "re-Author" it, which gives you a directory of the disk and you can copy just the movie itself into whatever region (or region free) that you want. The "******" part of the program means it compresses it to put all of that disk onto your DVR. If it has to compress it more than 50-60% then you're going to lose some quality, but you can compensate by letting the program do a deep scan of the disk first and compress it in the least disruptive way possible. Usually if you copy only the movie you get it at 100%, and the result is that when you put the DVD in the player it just starts and plays the movie. Big movies (Gone With the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia) that are on double layer disks won't fare as well as normal flicks when recording to single layer DVD-Rs. If you open the compression settings once you've selected "Re-Author," then you can see the various layers and determine how much you want to leave to get the compression you want. I get rid of bulky French, Spanish, and any the other languages (you want to leave at least one or your movie will have no sound!) and you'll see your percentage compression decrease. At 70 percent and up the compression is not noticeable during playback.

When you have made your choices, you hit the "Backup" button and you'll see another important set of tabs to look at. I choose to burn these to my region (1) because my DVD players don't respond well to region-free settings, though that is the default in this program. Unclick the region free option and it has all of the regions checked. De-check the ones you don't want, and you should in this process be converting the file from whatever region it was filmed for into whatever region your equipment comes from.

You can make good personal copies with this program. It takes 20-30 minutes per disk, and I'd advise keeping it to yourself that you're doing this. Hence the anonymous post here.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:59 PM

Pirating is illegal, even if the program is free.   This should not be posted here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:00 PM

also, it does not address the PAL/NTSC issue - just regions.

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:10 PM

I think the "personal use" issue has visited the Supreme Court and been found to be legal, thus something that vendors can't prevent. The legality of the program is a separate issue. And look at what Sony did recently--infected computers of those who tried to make legal copies of their own CDs. It is a tangle.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: DVD & NTSC/PAL (region free)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:26 PM

In the 1970s, the BBC produced "Secret Garden" for TV, and sold tapes. I recently got one of the old PAL tapes and had a technician make copies to DVD for me (2 for $35 U. S.). BBC catalogues show that they have put most of their great TV productions on DVD, but not "Secret Garden," which is far superior to the Maggie Smith-Disneyfied thing released in N. AM.

Sony and others produce a PAL-NTSC player that takes both kinds of tapes (as well as DVDs); the Sony would have cost me about $250.
For someone who wishes to play a collection of PAL tapes after moving to N. Am., it would be worth the cost, but for a very few tapes, get a technician to turn the tapes into DVDs. Here in Calgary, with over 20% immigrant population, the techies make money converting message videos.

My daughter just bought a Chinese-made region-free DVD player for Can$60 which seems to be the lowest price in western Canada, and it works well; a KOSCH DV-X721c. Website www.kosch.com: Kosch

Unless I must, I don't copy music with my PC; I use my music system, complete with lp record players, tape decks and a DVD player with the TV- the compleat couch potato is the way to go.