BS: Is Religion rubbish?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:21 PM

The thrust of religion-organizers to divide the face of heaven into parts and pieces -- be it seraphim in a hierarchy or the faces of Shiva and 20,000 subordinate entities named after subtle distinctions in the life cycle -- is, to my mind, an effort by human thought to drag the infinite down to material scales and magnitudes.

Not that the Infinite minds, much. Bwahahaha.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM

Bill D,
I think you meant "tablets" rather than "tabernacles"- in your otherwise funny and possibly accurate joke. Tabernacles are booths or huts in which the Children of Israel rested while sojourning in the desert.
Moses however took two tablets- as has been amply discussed in constipation threads.
Actually God first offered the commandments to all the other nations who refused them . The Children of Israel responded by asking how much they cost. When they heard that they were free they said "We'll take ten!" Talking of stereotypes....
Jack The Lad

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

Hooray! Complete agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:57 PM

Oh, man, has she EVER been hassled...and I know Carol well. She does not deserve it.

India is fascinating, all right, in its flexibility and its acceptance of diversity. It is probably the most spiritually complex country in human history. To see the One in the Many or the Many in the One is a subtle and beautiful level of awareness. Any Indian spiritual seeker I ever met considered Jesus to be an Avatar...a fully realized God-man of the highest consciousness. It's a shame that more Christians are not that open to the Indian spiritual archetypes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 03:52 PM

Your points are well made LH. However the monotheism of Hinduism is more real than apparent, if you see what I mean - the overwhelming impresssion of Hinduism is of glorious and almost chaotic diversity. This accounts for Hinduism's remarkable historic tolerance, spawning and then re-absorbing (some of)Buddhism (in Hinduism he is an avatar of Vishnu - neat!) and coexisting happily with Jainism, tribal religion and even managing to subtly hybridise more uptight religions once they have been in India for a while.

You are quite right to point out that if you go to the roots we are all in 'a dream of Brahma' - but on a day to day level many or most Hindus seem to live as happy polytheists, albeit usually with a particular devotion to one specific deity or spirit or another. As one travels from one area to another in India life becomes even more confusing, as different gods are given many different names due to the many languages and to indicate the quality of their manifestation in that place! One of the things that pulls me back to India over and over again.

I'm sorry to hear that Carol C has been hassled in the past. Perhaps this accounts for her remarkable reflexive hostility and itchy trigger finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:01 AM

We HAVE had threads on CarolC before, Ohh-Ahh, usually launched by people intent on convicting her of anti-semitism or some other form of nastiness like that, and willing to spend several hours a day at it...

Boring as hell. I know her, and those labels simply don't fit. Not even close. These people ought to get a REAL hobby, like collecting nude photos of Liberace or belly button lint or something else like that that reflects their keen grasp of reality in a more appropriate fashion.

I can understand how the 3 monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) bug you...they have been a real pain for humanity and have caused tremendous suffering and ignorance. The Children of Israel, by the way, had their period of kicking ass, invading, pillaging and despoiling too..it was back when they arrived in the Middle East from Sinai...but that was a very long time ago. They have sort of resumed that aggressive role since 1948, after a very lengthy period of being harried from pillar to post by various insane Christian fanatics in Europe...and of course the Christians and Muslims have been having repeated periods of mutual extermination. Only recently have Muslims and Jews been at each other's throats.

I find it ironical that 3 religions which arose out of the same holy books and prophets can't get along with each other. They're worse than the Democrats and Republicans, and that's BAD!

Now, there are some other religions that are actually monotheistic too...

The Bahai religion is.

The Hindu religion is...in that it proposes a single transcendent Godhead, and then breaks that Godhead up into many particular aspects with names like: Rama, Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Radha, Parvati, Hanuman, Ganesh, etc...these may look to you like many gods and goddesses, but they are all aspects of the transcendent One. A diamond can have many facets, but it's still one diamond. You follow?

The North American Indians had a similar way of looking at it: One God, manifesting as many archetypes and powers in Nature. The one God could be called Manitou or Wakan Tanka (Holy Spirit)...but could appear in many aspects.

Most religions, in fact, are monotheistic at their heart. But even the Christians, in the majority, see the One God as a tripartite God...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then the Catholics add Mary and a whole lot of saints. Now how is that really all that different from the many aspects of the One which the Hindus believe in?

It isn't. It's quite similar. People are wasting their time arguing about nothing, when they actually have a tremendous amount in common. That is the human tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 08:48 PM

LOL, Hilda, thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 07:26 PM

Martin Gibson, could I say how pleasant it is to see you posting sensible arguments and comments instead of swearing and generally carrying on like a maniac. Why don't you do that more often? Or is it just CarolC who brings out the worst in you? (what is her problem by the way? Anyone who disagrees with her is an instant bigot).

Perhaps we should have a special thread on CarolC - should be up to 500 posts, 90% from her, in no time!

For the benefit of the thread, I don't think religion is rubbish per se, but the three monotheisms in particular have got a lot of rubbish to answer for. It is scarcely a wonder that secular people look on religion with a cold eye sometimes when people of these religions (to be fair, not the Jews so much - they were usually kicked rather than kickers) spent - and still spend, one more than others - so much time trying to butcher, burn, ostracise and marginalise secular thought for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: hilda fish
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:33 PM

There were 3 good arguments that Jesus was Black.
1. He called everyone "brother"
2. He liked Gospel
3. He couldn't get a fair trial.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that
Jesus was Jewish:
1. He went into His Fathers business.
2. He lived at home until he was 33.
3. He was sure his Mother was a virgin and his
mother was sure he was God.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that
Jesus was Italian:
1. He talked with his hands.
2. He had wine with every meal.
3. He used olive oil.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that
Jesus was a Californian:
1. He never cut his hair.
2. He walked around barefoot all the time.
3. He started a new religion.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that
Jesus was Irish:
1. He never got married.
2. He was always telling stories.
3. He loved green
pastures...................hmmmm!!!!

But the most compelling evidence of all---3 proofs
that Jesus was a woman:
1. He fed a crowd at a moment's notice when there
was no food.
2. He kept trying to get a message across to a bunch
of men who just didn't get it.
3. And even when he was dead he had to get up
because there was more work to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:15 AM

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

I love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:03 AM

It is not generally known that when Moses first came down from the Mount the tabernacles contained fourteen commandments. When he read them out to the Children of Israel there was great commotion.

One of the spokesmen said to Moses " This is very hard on us Moses, please go back and try to reason with the Lord . Explain that we are human and to keep all these commandments will place great hardship on us". So, very reluctantly Moses went back up to the Mount with the tabernacles and after a week, gaunt and haggard came stumbling back to the Tents of Israel. The people gathered around expectantly and the spokesman asked" Nu, Moses, how did it go up there?"

Moses could hardly speak, he was hoarse from his week long pleadings for his people. Finally he said "Well, I have good news and bad news, The good news is that I managed to get it down to only ten commandments, but the bad news is that adultery is still in!".

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:28 AM

There would have been an Eleventh Commandment if God had instructed Nigel Tufnel on Mount Sinai instead of Moses...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Nigel Tufnel
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:57 AM

why do the volume controls on Marshall Amps only go up to 10 ?!

... "You see, most blokes will be playing at 10. You're on 10, all the way up, all the way up...Where can you go from there? Nowhere. What we do, is if we need that extra push over the cliff...Eleven. One louder."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:00 AM

Why are there only 10 commandments?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:03 AM

Martin, I thought you touchy & totally humorless in the subject of Jewishness.

I wronged you.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 11:15 PM

Poof!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 10:00 PM

Be careful not to lose your "grain of salt"...

it is tiny,
dissolves in BS
and, for some, vaporizes
at the invocation of the word of god

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 06:16 PM

Very true, Martin. Where does the stereotype end and the cultural folklore begin, and what separates the two? Hard to figure.

Bill, I am not suggesting you fit any given stereotype, nor do most people. I was poking fun at some stereotypes one tends to see again and again in the media, that's all.

Here's another stereotype: the incredibly stupid young male, as portrayed by characters like Doug and Bob McKenzie, Wayne and Garth in Wayne's World, Beavis and Butthead, Dumb and Dumber, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 06:00 PM

Guest clint Keller, I will be the first to tell you that there is some truth to the steotypical Jew.

You are not sneaking anything past me or offending me in any way by bringing that up.

All stereotypes in a sense are folklore. There are stereotypes for just about every type of group people. blacks, chinese, Arabs, Jews, women (especially women), white men, Italians, black men only, black women only, you name it.

These stereotypes are based on some truths that have formulated through the years. Bringing them up and mentioning them is more folklore, than racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:48 PM

gee, LH....which stereotype am I?
   I am older, formerly semi-religious but now atheist (that's about the first time I ever used that word about me), sorta left-wingish but not hung up of labels, married and still 'sexual', educated but no higher degree completed, out of the acedemic crunch, happy to meet and know folks, totally sure that I am NOT the only one who has any 'enlightened'.......but....committed to rational thinking, no matter where it takes me.

"I've said all I really feel I need to on this subject for awhile, Bill. :-)"...*grin* I think giving up booze and tobacco must be easier than stopping the promotion of one's ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM

Well, if it's the Jehovah's Witnesses' religion, then I'll agree...it's rubbish. They seem to like it, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: s6k
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 03:26 PM

yes, rubbish

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 10:46 AM

Here's another great stereotype: the "crusty, but benevolent" older character in a movie, drama, sitcom, etc. This sort of typecasting was touched upon humorously in the movie "Network". The real truth is that such crusty old types are usually NOT benevolent in the least! They're usually bastards (assuming they're male, that is...).

I think maybe we should start a thread on stereotypes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 10:41 AM

Abso-valootly, Guest, baby!!! :-) Right with ya on that one... I sure hope we get a chance to have coffee together sometime and compare notes on this kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 04:37 AM

Another stereotype to chew on - the kind who think they are the only ones to be enlightened. The kind who think everyone else is missing out on some great universal truth by not agreeing with them. The kind who in the absence of real life love from a real life person, constantly make reference to their lack of sexuality as though it is a choice and not something they have had thrusted upon them.. The kind who bemoan consumerism from their computer terminal. The kind who in their efforts to make everyone think they have sussed out life and are on a higher plane, actually give people the impression that they are very much missing out on life, because of their rigid belief system. The kind who are too scared to try. The kind who will never again open their eyes to new ideals, because they have indoctrinated themselves with their particular brand of religion. The kind who are unable to recognise any of the above in themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:08 AM

Oh, yeah! THAT one is a real beauty. Method actors can really get their teeth into a role like that. Nasty, nasty!

Here are some more...

The saintly, put-upon black person with a heart of gold, ever victimized, ever patient, ever angelic in basic nature, despite being dumped on constantly by a racist society. See any number of movies for this heartwarming stereotype, portrayed by both males and females.

The saintly, put-upon Native American with a heart of gold, a warrior spirit which can kick ass like you wouldn't believe when provoked beyond measure, and an astounding ability to perceive spiritual realities that are totally beyond us ordinary white people (wretched beings that we are!). Heh! I call myself "Little Hawk" because I love the North American Indian traditions, but even I am getting sick of this particular super-Native stereotype!

The saintly, put-upon victim of endemic anti-semitism who...

Well, no. I'd better stop right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,stereotypes ?
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:54 AM

..or the godless amoral sociopathic power crazed meglomaniac corporate tycoon..

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:36 AM

Martin - Yeah, I am familiar with the classic left-wing atheist type. They are fairly rare, deadly boring, and take themselves way too seriously. They usually think of themselves as "socialists", but sure as hell not as working class. I do not consider them to be a constituency large enough that I would spend any time worrying about them.

They are also most often bearded heavyset men with glasses, and a university degree or two. They may teach at a university. They pride themselves on their intellectual abilities and their stunning skill with words. Their god is their own mind...which they regard with an adoration akin to that experienced by Narcissus when he gazed at his reflection in the pool.

Women, when still young and foolish, marry these men, and later divorce them for being emotionally cold and thoughtless.

Now...THERE's a stereotype to chew on, eh? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:26 AM

For the pharmaceutical industry, mental illness is a religion! :-)

They make millions pushing pills down people who need not pills but good emotional counselling and an actual sense of purpose or a healthy sense of their own worth and identity to motivate them in life. It's a bloody disgrace, and a far bigger one than that perpetrated by most churches, in my opinion.

These threads that knock "religion", as if it were just one simple monolithic subject instead of an enormously complex and varied one, are threads for lazy thinkers who probably feel very proud of the fact that they don't approve of people who kick dogs, steal cars, and abuse children. Masters of the painfully obvious, I mean...

Know'm sayin', Peter? Money is probably the religion that's got you by the balls. Or is it sex? Or success? Or consumerism? Or fame? Or popularity? Just take a look at whatever it is that you reserve your strongest faith in and put the most attention on...and THERE is your religion, complete with its gods, its rules, and its superstitious fantasies and spurious rewards and punishments.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff (wdyat12)
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:51 PM

Religion is a mental illness!

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:44 PM

I couldn't help it. The devil made me do it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:34 PM

Tell us about the stereotypical Jew, Marty.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 05:45 PM

I don't know Ayn Rand personally, LH, but you can be sure that the stereotype atheist is a liberal, left winger.

There is a certain amount of truth in all stereotypes no matter how much it makes some squirm.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 05:07 PM

Yes, I wonder about that too, Martin. A lot, I bet! Well, you don't have to belong to a church or an organized religion to believe in God, and you can even be a leftwinger and still believe in God. I certainly do. Matter of fact, I know any number of liberals and lefties who believe in God. It's just media hype that identifies the Left with atheism and the Right with religion, in my opinion. I bet there are rightwingers who are strict atheists. Wasn't Ayn Rand an atheist, for example?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 04:51 PM

How many far left liberals end up praying to God when they are on their deathbed?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 04:42 PM

Hitler bombed "all the churches in Hull"????? You can't be serious! :-) I think the Luftwaffe had strict orders not to bomb St. Paul's Cathedral, among other things. I know that they were under strict orders not to bomb metropolitan London until Sept 1940, when they retaliated for British bombing of Berlin. Eventually, of course, they bombed just about anything they could, which is what always happens eventually in all-out war. That's the problem with war...it rapidly spirals out of all reason. People begin by bombing warships and airfields. They then bomb factories. Then they bomb rail lines, bridges, and communications. Then they bomb power stations and utilities. Then they bomb schools, houses, churches, and hospitals. Finally, they end by even strafing civilians and farm animals...as the Allies did all over Germany in late '44 and '45.

I would suggest that the most powerful religions in the World today are the worship of Money and Military supremacy. Those religions are happy to enlist churches in their service any time they can manage it, but it's Money that drives the game. Not God...Money! Money IS a god in the present society. In fact, it's THE ruling god in this society.

The War in the Middle East is being fought for land, political dominance, and oil. Religion is just a convenient handmaiden to rally the "faithful".

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 04:30 PM

I know what Sir jOhn means because he is a friend. During the war Hitler bombed all of the churches in Hull and we have lived without religion ever since. It hasn't made us all bad people, in fact Hull is regarded as one of the most friendly places in East Yorkshire. The ladies are very friendly and foxes and seals can generally roam about with total freedom (unless Ted is in town). Just recently Muppett was very well received and has even been invited back. In 2000 years time will people worship a mythical God called Eric Clapton?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

Atom bombs are too dangerous to be rubbish. So too are cruise missiles and weapons industries that depend on continuing their sales into perpetuity.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:36 AM

No, it's too dangerous to be rubbish. Faith in the absence of data, though, seems a lot like delusion to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:13 PM

I've said all I really feel I need to on this subject for awhile, Bill. :-) I figure if people want to remain in their familiar comfort zone (religious, atheist, or whatever), I'll just let 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:12 PM

ummmmmmmmmm............poetic, but not particularly useful to a pragmitist like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:53 PM

BillD,

Just take away everything that is NOT God, and what is left is what the person is seeking...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:50 PM

yup, bruce...very like the WMDs, except that, *grin*..........with WMDs, we knew what to look for, and we knew that they DID exist somewhere.

(I guess if everyone agreed, these threads would be much shorter...)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:27 PM

BillD,

So God is like the WMD in Iraq??? Just because we haven't found them, they may still be there?

And I look forward to more of your speeches- I don't always agree, but I always learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:19 PM

how can it have been TOTALLY covered, LH, when I hadn't made all my speeches yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM

This question has already been totally covered in another thread with a virtually identical title to this one, jOhn, plus several other threads besides that one. Go look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:13 PM

THE BIG VOICE

Sayeth

I AM THE LARD!!

(whoops he celebrated with a little too much of that wine he turned into water,er, was it the other way round? I do think he meant LORD though)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:11 PM

YES,religion is harmful to those who are vulnerable through illness etc,etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:02 PM

Yes...I'd think that without the overlay of religious based "directed moralities" that conflict with one another, we 'should' eventually do better than we do now...if we survived the transition!
It's not like giving up cigarettes or becoming a tee-totaler, where physical cravings we believe are bad for us can be sublimated or controlled...people believe that religion is GOOD for them, and arguments to the contrary fall on deaf ears, because there is no way to prove a negative. "There is no Supreme Intelligence!" "Why? Just because YOU can't see/feel/intuit it? I see him/it every day, and you can't explain how this universe came to be any other way!".....and I really can't...and it's hard to explain that I don't NEED to explain it: that the search itself is enough.

See?...it's a very, very complicated argument to show why religious beliefs might not be right or justified, and many, many atheists do not actually think it through, but are just expressing their own emotional reactions to some bad experience in church, loss of loved ones, or pessimism about life in general. It can be worse to be right for the wrong reasons, than to be wrong for good reasons!

Religion does serve many useful purposes in this world...at this point in our development as humans. It would be nice if more of its adherents would be more tolerant of each other and not use their beliefs so negatively, but I see no way to take the basic beliefs away from them without profound & serious consequences. It will take much time and MUCH education beyond what we can offer right now to wean good people from their ultimate security blankets....and, who knows...a voice from the sky might come booming down one day and prove them right!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion rubbish?
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:42 PM

None of us is really sure. Or are we ? The track record of the Methodists and the Quakers seems good and brotherly - - the others seem to make war on people on account of religioius beliefs.

Interesting that statiscally the country with lowest crime rate - Japan - is also the country with least organised religion.