What's up with Mudcat this time!!???

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 11:35 AM

Jon -

Relative to those who log on to the regular 'cat site, the catters who go to your site when the 'cat is too busy to connect are probably a very small subpopulation. It could just be that the one (or more) who have, or have had, the bug just aren't in that group.

And, as I suggested, even if Max has found the "FunWeb" search engine, it could have been attached or embedded in almost anything, if I read how these things work and are being used. From what I've seen/heard, there's virtually no "pure FunWeb" stuff very active, as mostly it's bundled into downloaders, pornsite logins, etc., by individual "site mismanagers" and it's freely available to anyone who wants to mangle it. There's also the difficulty that FunWeb has quite a few different programs available for people to misuse, so you may just be seeing "the good ones," or just not seeing the isolated mismangled one(s).

I would expect that a typical search bot would try to collect a few bits of stuff and send it's findings home immediately. I would also expect that it might incorporate a "try again later" if it ran into too much info or didn't get a connection "at home," since otherwise it could stall and/or swamp the receiving site. Given the 'cat heavy use of links, everything is linked to everything else, tied up into loops and knots of links, so a search bot that blindly follows links is going to end up trying to send the entire 'cat server back multiple times. It may have a "time out and try again" that just turns it on and makes it "run til failure and reschedule" - or some such mechanism, that makes it come back every morning to try again?

Most sites have a few, or even quite a few, links that go somewhere, and maybe go to a page with a few additional links, but on most sites the links end somewhere - or lead off the site. On the 'cat no chain of links ever ends. I know that there are mechanisms to limit the depth of search by bots, but if the searchers are as dumb as implied by what I've seen about the FunWeb machines, I'd not be surprised if the 'cat server is full of the little vermin, happily spawning new bots and looking for the end of the links - and there ain't any ends.

Or it may just be too many Brits having tea.(?)

Of course, again, I'm just imagining what might be, so it's of no real help to the stranded 'catters or to Max.

John

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:20 AM

"In the absence of further explanation from Max, it must be assumed that he found something on the 'cat servers to implicate FunWeb; but he's the only one who knows."

Agreed John.

The problems I have there though are that I have mudcat members vist the Annexe, and even though I'm on a shared hosting server I do get to view my own raw logs and there is evidence to support mudcat members having funweb. What I don't see is anything that would support the notion that it is hammering either me or my host.

That, coupled with the fact that I can't find any current article suggesting web masters are being driven crazy all over the world by funweb is sufficient for me to think Max has read this one wrongly.

I could be wrong of course...

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:59 AM

Jon –

The link that Max posted re the FunWebProducts was a NetworkWorldFusion commentary by Mark Gibbs, marked as a Network World Applications Newsletter, 12/10/03. ( http://www.nwfusion.com/newsletters/web/2003/1208web2.html ). I'm sure you've seen that one already.

I agree that it seemed like rather old news, but it may just be the best short explanation that was available for Max to post. In the absence of further explanation from Max, it must be assumed that he found something on the 'cat servers to implicate FunWeb; but he's the only one who knows.

There are numerous "product makers" who's reputations are no better than FunWeb's. The typical difficulty with many of them arisises from their practice of allowing virtually anyone to "bundle" or "embed" their bot/search/hijack components into arbitrary other "free stuff." The makers make no attempt to control who uses their "engines" so it's impossible to tell who's actually responsible. Of course the core engine that gets used is identifiable, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they directly intended the use that appears. One other similar maker is 180Solutions, cited as the culprit in the recent COAST Collapse ( eWeek at http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1761466,00.asp )

The "symptom" I get is that mudcat is up and running. I get a "web site contacted, waiting for reply." Usually the "progess bar" indicates intermittent clusters being sent, but I'm on a LAN connection so I don't get a meaningful byte count. Progress stalls, and the connection just sits there.

My amateur reading of this is that a request for connection has priority and is answered. The page requested starts sending, but can be interrupted if a higher priority request appears, i.e. a new request for connection. When the transmission to me is interrupted, my request goes to a que until it's next in line for response. If there's too much traffic, the que fills and my request probably gets pushed off the bottom – or the traffic just prevents my request from ever getting back to the top of the que.

A possible mudcat-specific explanation might be that Max doesn't have a large enough que to handle peak traffic, and/or doesn't have "que full" detection and/or overflow handling set up optimally. I've seen some vague comments about the possibility of managing the que so that a "senior request" gets moved up in priority, but that kind of management appears to require a few extra bells and whistles.

The regular appearance of the problem seems to be just about the time London goes to work, or perhaps at morning tea break, so it's possible that it's a simple "too many Brits" thing. While that's a politically popular opinion, the posted traffic doesn't really show that much of a bump.

If the 'cat is being hit with an indexing/search utility, I can speculate that something of this sort might have special effects on the 'cat. Sending results home probably must be "scheduled" for any non-trivial site, since otherwise the receiving site would have to have a continously open connection to every site it's searching. The roughly 04:00 – 05:00 US Eastern time would be a reasonable time for typical US sites if the bot is looking for a time when US traffic is low. (That's 01:00 – 02:00 Western US time)

The regular appearance might also be because one user, who comes in at a regular time, is dropping the same specific and unusually disruptive bot at the same time every, or nearly every, day.

Most search engines rely on following links to find what's on a site. Every page at the 'cat has, typically, a dozen of more links at the top for related info, a list of posts with a link to each post, each post has a link to the person posting – which also executes search. Each request to open a link is a "new request to connect" which has priority at the top of the que. So how much traffic happens if "someone or something" goes to the 'cat at 04:00 every day and says "open all the links?" The search behavior of a crudely programmed bot might not even be visible at many sites, but at the 'cat I can see a very stuffed buffer.

Plausible(?), but of course no proof. (Of course, I may not understand how this stuff works, and I'll go with the experts when they're ready to talk.)

John

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:37 AM

Apologies Jenny, not that I can do anything about a MC problem, perhaps I should have "listened" to you more carefully than I did when you gave your observations a few weeks ago. At that point, I thought the timing was the "tired server" - one that may last out a few hours but would not last out over night and the start up time does seem to tie in line with Max getting up to re-boot. The comments here do suggest that it may be more than that but I haven't a clue what.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,JennyO
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:24 AM

I agree with you Jon - I have serious doubts about it being anything to do with funwebproducts, and like I have been saying all along, there is definitely a pattern to it, timewise. I don't think it's somebody logging on. I think it's more likely something internal that is timed. I don't know enough about computers to make a guess as to what it could be though.

Also, as I have said before, I don't think we have yet heard the real reason for what is happening - if in fact, anyone knows what the real reason is.

Meanwhile, I guess we should open up Backdoor Tavern 99 again.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:54 AM

Interesting, Leadfingers. That would blow my thoughts of a different installation away if it is timed.

I still do not believe it is funweb (however undesirable it is) doing the damage though.

If anyone can point me to the evidence I've asked for, I would be greatful as if I'm wrong, I could too find I suffer.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:50 AM

I had a very similar experience to Leadfingers' - it pooped out on me in the middle of trying to post to the Carolyn Hester thread, which I eventually did through the back door (which will pinpoint the time).

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,eric the frustrated
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:49 AM

I experience this every day, OK early to mid morning then it goes down.

eric

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Leadfingers
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:42 AM

I logged into the Cat in the normal way at o920 gmt - Quick look - No One in Chat so had a browse through the forum . At about ten fifteen
It became impossible to get any threads up , although the 'back' button put me back to the forum . I logged out , and couldnt get back in except through '99' (The Back Door) . This would seem to tie in with the suggestion that someone is coming in mid morning and blowing the whole thing up !

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:31 AM

I'm still trying to look into this but the idea that funweb products is the cause becomes increasingly unlikely.

Can anyone point me to a recent (the other link is to old) link to an article that would support the argument that funweb products are driving web masters crazy? I can find plenty from a users point of view and I wholeheartedly agree that one should get rid of it but I have been unable to find an article from the hosts side - except that it carries the minor irritation of lengthening the browser details with the addtion of "funweb products" - a slight addition of length to the server logs. That's how I see it on my own logs and I don't get the supporting "assult" evidence.

I also become more and more baffled as to why this program should be singling out just one MC server.

I'm addtionally baffled as the first report of the problems here started with "website under construction". This could be consistant with Allan C's report of a new installation but I find it incredibly hard to believe something like funweb could have deleted index.html or other default page.

Jon

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:16 AM

We seem to be using the back door again, that's two days running for me. Is the bug back again?
Giok [Open that tavern]

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Bassic
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 06:23 AM

Shhhhhh!! Dont say anything else it might go away again ;-)

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: MudGuard
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 06:12 AM

Something is different today - Mudcat is still up ;-)

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 11:35 AM

back again peek a boo!

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Josher Via the back door
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 11:20 AM

This is getting silly

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 08:35 AM

Phhhhhzzzztttt!

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,JennyO
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 07:51 AM

Yep, same time AGAIN. See you in the Backdoor Tavern.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Giok P'd Off too
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:29 AM

Well it just died again at approx 10:20 am UK time, as I was in the middle of posting.
Giok :~(

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:13 PM

Nutty, I'm reluctant to post here but, I can offer these facts.

1. The article Max provided was written in 2003 (12/10/03) which ever way you care to read it. Funweb products have been around and used by many for a long while.

2. The server logs at the Annexe do show that some members of Mudcat still have it on thier system. What I can't find is any evidence of it spidering or otherwise hammering our site with page requests or any other reason such as unexpected downtime to justify me attempting to put a block on it.

3. I check into my ISP's forum daily. There is no mention of a new and current threat from funweb products there.

It could be that Mudcat is being hit by a new and more damaging version of the software, that the news is slow reaching me, and in a few days time I do find I have problems but if I was a gambler I'd put my money on the problem being something else.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:08 PM

Nutty I was just postulating the theory that it could be being done intentionally with malice aforethought, no evidence, just an idle paranoid thought;~)
Giok

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: mooman
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

I noticed I was the last member to post before things went odd again. However, I've just done a full system scan (I run the latest updated version Ad-Aware SE every day by the way) and can't find anything untoward. Certainly no new search bars or particularly odd adware apart from the usual rubbish one collects in a normal working day (which is not inconsiderable and requires no effort on one's part!).

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:40 AM

Okay, folks, let's put an end once and for all to this perpetual speculating about Mudcat downtime. Here's the plain and simple, factual truth of the matter:

Max is a very smart and caring fellow. He realizes that if the Mudcat were up all the time, many of us would stay on it 16 hours a day except for occasional bathroom, food and sex breaks. In his wisdom, Max has planned these outages so as to give us a little time to practice our instruments, learn new material and write songs. The fact that the outages seem to be totally at random is yet another testimony to Max's wisdom. Since Mudcat membership stretches around the globe through all time zones, the seemingly random nature of the outages merely serves to give all members equal amounts of practice time.

Those are the facts. And, if they aren't, at least they're a pretty good lie.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Bassic
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:23 AM

I see no evidence of other sites that I access slowing down or becoming unavailable at the same time as we seem to be having the regular occurance here on MC......so that would suggest that it it an MC specific problem rather than the web as a whole slowing down to a crawl. The "evidence" that I presume Giok bases his speculation on, is the regularity of the time........the lack of pre notice or warning of a "planned" outage as I would expect from a maintenance activity, (Max did warn us a couple of weeks ago of such an event), and the fact that we have all been warned of the Funweb problem and how to fix it.The logocal hypothesis is that, if it is due to a funweb problem, then either it is comming from a regular user who has NOT disinfected their machine for some reason, or as Giok suggests, it is being done deliberately for some reason. If it was a random infection caused by an occasional visitor looking for song lyrics, then the regularity of the time that this happens would seem to argue against that. People do do malicious things on the WWW....thats what viruses are all about. That doesnt mean to say there may not be other reasons for it, but speculation is a fairly harmless activity in this case I would think?

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:13 AM

I can't imagine internet traffic increasing dramatically at 5 in the morning. It's a bit too early for that. Also, I seem to remember that last time this happened, it started about an hour earlier, at almost the same time day after day (or night after night here in Oz). There's some sort of pattern in it, I think, and probably a good reason, but I don't think we've heard it yet.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: nutty
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:02 AM

I'm not sure I follow you Giok

Do you mean that the who web episode is intentional or that Mudcat is being targetted specifically??

And if Mudcat ...... by a member or guest???
I'd be interested to view the evidence on which you have based such a supposition.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:49 AM

There is the other possibility that it is being done intentionally, and whoever it is was on holiday for the last week or so.
Giok

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: nutty
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:44 AM

Given that the entire internet (not just Mudcat) is affected by this adware problem ..... it could just be that the web slows as traffic increases.

Between 6 and 7am being the time when the US is starting to come online.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:24 AM

Yes, I agree. However it wasn't down for so long this time. The last post from a member was at 5.14am mudcat time, and the first post from a member after it came back was at 9.27am mudcat time. So it was only down for a bit over 4 hours, instead of its usual 7 or so. All of which means.......I have no idea!

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:15 AM

I couldn't get in the back door either.. The 'Cat was lethargic at 10.55am (GMT UK), stopped at about 11.00am and is back now at 3.00pm.

I would be inclined to agree with Bassic and Lynne, the regular time slot is a bit suspicious and could warrant investigation.

LTS

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:12 AM

Well, I tried but I got an error message for the Backdoor Tavern..so I guess patience is a virtue...

so I'll check back to this discussion forum later. I guess I'm supposed to do work instead..

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,JennyO
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:39 AM

Come on over folks, Backdoor Tavern 99 is open and the Guinness is on the house!

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:28 AM

So, all that said, what's up?

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Giok P'd Off too
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:34 AM

Yep I got in earlier OK, and now it's time for a 99 again. No raspberry sauce on mine thanks!
Giok

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,JennyO
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:03 AM

Just like last time - you can almost set your watch by it. So if it runs true to form, it will be up again in about 6 hours. Ho hum.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Wrinkles
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 06:02 AM

Well it's Wednesday 10.44am in frosty Berkshire and I've had to use the backdoor yet again

Thanks Bassic, I was baffled when I read the Funweb explaination because it seemed to say the problem was in our own computers, not mudcat, yet the browser I use is safe from most adware/spyware (that is I can pick them up but there's nothing for them to get a handle on and get out again or effect operations) and my regular housekeeping rids my comp of them every couple of days. You're saying however that someone with Funweb "infects" the Cat which buggers it for everyone?

I do hope a cure is found soon; PM and Chat as well as threading had become part of my morning routine and I miss the bits of the Cat I can not get to via the back door.

Barbara

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Bassic
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:44 AM

Well it looks like the Mudcat.org front door approach is down yet again.....Last post by someone able to post with a Cookie looks to have been about 5.15 am Mudcat time, 10.15 am Uk time. Things had started to get slower for the previous half hour. If John in K is correct, I wonder if it could be someone in the UK, arriving at work about 9ish, and logging into MC and inadvertantly letting loose the "Bot" attack each time? If it is a "Work" PC then unless they have authorisation to run software like Spybot, it may be that they are infected and not aware, and not allowed to run Spybot to check either. Speculation I know but in the absence of any other info there is not much else to do.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST,Rosie
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 09:28 PM

It should say?
Hush!hush!hush!hush!
we're all tumbled down Lynnes front!!

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 08:07 PM

Shouldn't this thread be- What's down with Mudcat...?

Hush! hush! hush! hush!
We're all tumbled down.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 07:13 PM

Well, the Santy worm is being annoying lately as well and has caused bottlenecked traffic all over the internet. As ISPs install filters for it this slowdown should clear up.

So, make sure your computer is clean of spyware and adware... and always remember that the internet isn't a rock-solid thing so it might not be a server problem.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 06:34 PM

I think Lynne is saying that www.mudcat.org has indeed often been down for 6 hours at a time, although people (myself included) have been able to get in via other routes like 207.103.108.99.

Coming in by this route you are forced to be a guest and cannot access PMs , chat etc.

It has been going on too long for it to be the weather: Max's own explanation for the problems is at the top of the threads page and here.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: nutty
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:51 PM

Sorry to contradict Lynne but if you check, as I did, through the times of the postings for the last 3 days you will see that there has not been a 6 hour gap.
Which means that although you may not have been able to access Mudcat other people have.

I run 3 browsers and often get access through one when I can't with another .....

The fact that I can't get access with Netscape or IE has nothing to do with Mudcat but with the vageries of my system.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: MBSLynne
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM

No Nutty..it was actually down, as far as the front door goes, for 6 1/2 hours.And I can't see that recent weather conditions can have anythign to do with it, given that this same problem (ie being down between about 9 and 3 UK time every day) has been going on since New Year.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: nutty
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 03:57 PM

I really fail to see what such outbursts of frustration achieve except to try and make the situation appear greater than it actually is.

A posting at 6.30am hardly means that the Mudcat had been down all day in fact when checking back through the postings it seems that it had only been off line for about half an hour at that time ......

In fact, it was only down for about 3 hours which given the weather conditions could have been something entirely out of Max's control.
And also, given the weather conditions, I am sure he has had more to worry about than just Mudcat.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM

Well said Teresa,someone has a brain and its not me,lol.

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Teresa
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 03:03 PM

I think discussion of Mudcat problems might get more replies if you go to the help forum and post. http://help.mudcat.org From there you can also send pm or email to Max or Joe or Jeff.

Teresa

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 02:58 PM

Liz, I get Mudcat through my 'favorites' list, but tried search on google and Mudcat was at top of the list. Quick access.

When was all this trouble? Looked at 8:30 PM MST last night and everthing was fine, and fine again when I looked this morning at 10:30 AM MST.
(Of course if you don't keep proper Amurican hours...)

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 02:29 PM

Sounds like necrophilia that Liz

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

Just a little point... when you put Mudcat into a search engine and click on the link to Mudcat.org provided, it seems to be trying to log on via Loki. I thought Loki was no longer available...

Could it be someone is getting frustrated at always getting sent up a dead end?

LTS

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: MBSLynne
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 02:05 PM

leeneia, the reason for the !!??? is that ? wouldn't do. I was annoyed and frustrated that we are still not being given any infomation despite the fact that this problem has been going on since Christmas. If you want patience and understanding, making comments that are only likely to annoy and enrage is not the way to go about getting it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In fact, now I come to think of it...get stuffed!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: What's up with Mudcat this time!!???
From: Bassic
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:19 PM

This was on the help forum from John

Subject: RE: Down?
From: John In Kansas
Date: 25-Jan-05 - 08:52 AM

I'm getting the same symptom as before. The main thread site starts to open, no error message, just sits and waits. Apparently the "search engine" associated with the crud Max asked us to clean up just sends so many "search results" that it monopolizes the server. The server appears to be running, but it's just too busy to finish the page download with my slow connection.

The guess is that someone who has the "search bar" on their machine has visited again, and it's doing its search all over again - probably with multiple bots all running, since this thing apparently puts a new bot on every page you visit, if you're a carrier. (breeder might be a better term here.) Typhoid Mary(s) on the web.

John