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BS: The Religious Left
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: GUEST,jim tailor Date: 23 Feb 05 - 01:00 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Feb 05 - 12:34 AM Yeah, Poppa Gator. In one sense, I've reached the point where I don't give a dang whether people think I'm crazy or not, so I just say it the way I see it. The only reason I hang back and don't bother sometimes is...I figure, oh, why not just let them be the way they choose...cos it's okay for them to be the way they are, and if I said something now it would just make them uncomfortable and accomplish nothing useful. But if the subject really interests me, then I'll usually speak up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: GUEST,sambo_88 Date: 23 Feb 05 - 12:05 AM i think that what your saying has been be spoken in your point of view alot of people may disagree with what your saying or may not agree entirely but that's just my point of view some parts i believe you with but others i belive what the others have to say after all we are all different yet all equal |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: PoppaGator Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:27 PM It's been a couple of days since Com Seangan posted this: "Jesus Christ did not try to appropriate the power of the state to impose His views on everyone (as do today's right-wingers who profess to be His followers). Authoritarianism of any kind was never part of His message". Well said Popogator. I hadn't heard it put that way before. Hard to contradict. I really should own up to the fact that I didn't come up with that nice concise statement ~ I was paraphrasing (believe it or not) the Reverend Al Sharpton. Several weeks ago, he appeared on one of the Sunday morning poitical talk shows (Meet the Press? Face the Nation?) along with two right-wing ministers, Jerry Falwell and another gentleman, one of whom questioned whether Rev Al was "truly saved," whether he "truly knew Jesus." Al ~ not someone for whom I had had much regard previously ~ indignantly responded that he was saved, that he did know Jesus, but that the Jesus he knew...(see above quote). I was absolutely floored. What a great statement ~ absolutely righteous and undeniable. The two rightwingers had nothing to say, and the network awkwardly went to a commercial. Now, I realize that this does not counter every aspect of evangelical fundamentalism, some of which (I imagine) might not bother me at all. But it certainly speaks to the most obnoxious and intrusive traits of those who are so actively trying to beat the rest of us into submission to their beliefs. By the way, I would be glad to get in on that lovefest with Jerry and Jim and all the rest, but I always tend to drop out of these religious discussions after jumping in early, because I become reluctant to go into detail about my own peculiar mixture of belief and disbelief, and also because someone else (e.g., Little Hawk) usually articulates a similar-enough position more enthusiastically than I ever would. But really, I want to get along with everyone of good will; don't misinterpret my in-and-out presence as a lack of interest! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:39 PM I thought that D-Con was a rat poison that Muhhamed Ali used to hawk on tv commercials. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jim Tailor Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM D-Con ...it's just a label. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM Right, McGrath. I read a great quote today... "Political correctness, no matter how well it is intended, always ends up as an attack on freedom of speech." (or freedom of choice) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:21 PM Just because you think someone has the right to choose in some situation where does not imply you think that whatever they choose will be right. Just that it's their choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:55 PM ..not in a drug content, but meaning Elevated. Risen Up. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM I think you are High, brucie. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:45 PM Well, it doesn't matter, Bruce. "Left and Right" are just labels someone made up in order to divide people against each other. Division is what drives the engine of politics...just as it drives a professional game like hockey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Peace Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM I believe in God. Period. I justify that belief to nobody under any circumstance. Period. I have read the Bible entire, in three versions over the course of the years. Nothing I read there has changed my mind about God: God exists and has worked some wonders for me personally. In my perception, God brought many very kind and caring people into my life from all over the world. That I know to be fact--for me. Who else does or doesn't believe me? Than matters nowt, IMO. I do not mean to sound abrasive--it's straight talk, that's all. I do not support 'abortion on demand'. I do not support the death penalty as a general rule. I have never voted right of center in my life, although I have sometimes not voted left of center by marring my ballot. I am not religious in the 'go to church' sense, but I pray each and every night. I agree that women need more protection under the laws of all countries. I do not agree that they should be in a combat zone. I give my seat to older people on the bus (although older people are getting more difficult to find these days, and I hold doors for women even if they don't like it. I don't know where that would place me on the spectrum of left/right. If you figger it out, let me know. I have always wondered. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: EagleWing Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM A GUEST on 27/1/05 said "Okay,it's a generalisation but; Right wing Xians....old testament Left wing Xians....new testament" I disagree. Read the prophets such as Amos. Plenty of left wing stuff there. The prophets are continually calling for justice. But then even some of that difficult stuff in Leviticus is about justice. The above is definitely a generalisation and an innacurate one at that. I notice that most of this thread is from citizens of the US. Just thought I'd put in a UK 2 pennyworth. Frank L. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:32 AM Definitely. Lack of care in that department is pretty foolish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Peace Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:49 PM I think one obvious answer to decreasing the number of abortions that occur is to be more careful when engaging in sex. And before some individual jumps all over this, I mean BOTH parties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: dianavan Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:11 PM Well, I have stayed out of this (except to correct a grammatical error) but now I have to say that I know I am left but I also know that I am not religious. When I was pregnant with my daughter, I was not in a secure situation. I had a three year old son and had just separated from dad with no hope of financial support. Many, many people suggested that I have an abortion. I never even considered it. She had been conceived in love. I was already a mother so my life wasn't going to be radically altered by another baby. I didn't want my son to grow up as an only child. I had already bonded with the baby within. I made the right choice for me. It wasn't based on law, religious conviction or financial situation. Every woman should have this choice. Doesn't matter if you are right or left. Some will choose to abort and some will choose to give birth - it all depends on your circumstances in life. Nobody has the right to tell a woman what she should do in such a situation. She has the right to decide and she is the one that has to live with the decision. BTW - Yes, me and my little family struggled through poverty but we had a warm home and plenty to eat. Eventually I went to university and launched a career. My son is a successful businessman. My daughter is studying to become an architecht (I can't even spell it). So you see, it doesn't matter what other people think is best for you. You have to do what is best for yourself. My mind boggles when I hear people debating something that is highly personal. How would anyone know what is right for another? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: khandu Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:44 PM "Let each man work out his own salvation with fear & trembling." k |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:29 PM Hey, Rap: Dogmatism is kinda like astigmatism. They both limit your vision. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Rapparee Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:58 PM Dogmatism of any sort bothers me. To say to me "you CANNOT" riles me up and makes me want to do it. So does "you MUST". You must go to church every Sunday or you'll go spinning down to Hell. You cannot eat meat on Friday -- except this was pretty much revoked. You must be "born again" of water and the spirit. Well, I was baptized when I was about 10 days old. I'm told that I baptized the priest right back. You must accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Well, JC didn't say that -- he said "No one comes to the Father except through me." It's different. That is, of course, IF everything in the NT that is attributed to Jesus of Nazareth is actually what JoN actually said or did.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:04 PM Well, I didn't want to turn this into an abortion thread, so please don't follow me on this. But since Jim asked, I'll answer - I think abortion is wrong because it takes away either life or the potential for life. I think we instinctively know that even if we make the choice to have an abortion, we grieve the loss of something. Abortion is never a reason for celebration - but perhaps in certain desperate situations, it may be the only choice. The women I know who had abortions were in impossible relationships with men, relationships where it would be dangerous to bear or rear a child - and they did not seem to be able to find a way to get out of the relationship. So, although I think their abortions were wrong and I mourn the loss of their children, I think it may have been the correct decision for them, given the circumstances. And it you want to discussion further, please start another thread. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: robomatic Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:25 AM Jerry: I have experienced some of what you have through living in an international house at college, and later with a group of coworkers, all engineers, Jewish, Roman Catholic, Baptist, and Mormon. It would be exaggerating for me to call it 'communion', but the flavor of the interaction is much the same. Getting together over lunch and solving the problems of the world with a bunch of guys with all that variety is one of the things that makes America great. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM It always seems strange, the way people use that expression "a bunch of cells", as if that isn't a perfectly accurate definition of all of us at every stage of our lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: catlova Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:00 AM Back to an earlier part of this thread, about who thinks what and why.. My father was a lapsed Catholic, (Oz-Irish background) & reacted very strongly against the Church. My mother was a former Oz-Scottish Presbyterian sunday school teacher, who left the church and all things religious in her late twenties. They had four kids and brought us up agnostic. The oldest child took on the heavy athiesm of my father, the next two were mildly agnostic, and i became Buddhist. We all inherited leftist views. Looking back on it all, I realised that while my father became strongly anti Catholic, a lot of the ideals he instilled in us (fairness, social conscience, service, helping, whatever) he learnt from the church. My mother also spent years helping voluntarily in various community organisations, that prasctise of service she also learnt in her church. I have also noticed Christians who move into Eastern based religions who go in, become "converted", "initiated" whatever, and take in a whole lot of views and attitudes about religion that they learnt in their original church/culture. It is very hard to examine our own attitudes and work out what came from where - so much of how we interact is based on what we learnt in the family home. But for people who are religious, all their actions, positive and negative, will ultimately be viewed by others in terms of their professed religious ideals. That's the way the world is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:00 AM Oh yeah, and you could add freda underhill and brucie and C-flat and numerous others to a group who could get together over a cup of coffee, tea or a bottle of beer and communicate. I could never list all the friends I have in here with whom I'd enjoy that level of communion. Art, definitely. And Bert... and padre, and... You get the idea. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jim Tailor Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:41 AM Sorry Joe, I only asked you why you think it is wrong -- not what you'd do about it. Just, why do you think it is "wrong". You have no idea how close we might be -- I've never said anything about how I might wish to "solve" it -- I've just contended that the left, pro-abortion-on-demand is the extreme position. Good morning!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:36 AM Thanks, Joe: I was a Catholic during the years when the Pope passed a ruling on birth control. Perhaps I missunderstood it, but I thought there was a term that differentiated between picking the Yankees to win the last Championship playoff over the Red Sox, and making an official pronouncement. I keep vaguely recalling the term ex-cathedra. At the time of the ruling, the Catholics I knew took his ruling to be an official church doctrine and there was a lot of controversy over it. But, on a broader term, I'm with you, Joe. I think for most people, it's difficult to carry on a conversation because rigor mortis of the mind set in years ago. I find it easy to talk with Bill and Little Hawk and Amos, although we don't agree on much, because they will carry on a conversation. Some people consider an argument the ultimate parlor game. I don't. I really want to understand how people think, and have communion with them. (Funny how terms take on rigid meanings... like communion... isn't that when you eat the body and blood of Christ?.. no, communion is drawing close to someone or something, and feeling connected and communi-cating.) That's what I seek. Not everyone is interested in doing that. For many years, I shared a wonderful communion with three friends of mine. Art Thieme was a thousand miles away and did not believe in God. Dennis was the Lutheran Pastor of the church I was going to at that time, and the third person was a woman I worked with who, if she believed in God, rarely acknowledged it. She was a very cynical, worst-case scenario person. We were an odd lot.. I don't think that you could find a more unlikely group of people, and there was never a time when we were all together. Art and I exchanged letters constantly, I shared portions of our letters with Dennis and my co-worker, and my letters to Dennis with Art and her. At work, I'd start most days over a cup of coffee with my co-worker and we'd talk about things I was discussing in letters, and Dennis and I would have breakfast together and commune. He'd bring in letters with sections highlighted, that he wanted to talk about. It was an exciting time in my life. Art still doesn't believe in God, Dennis has retired and moved away and doesn't communicate and the woman is probably as cynical as ever. I haven't seen her in years. And yet we were all changed. We never reached agreement on much of anything, but we loved and respected each other, and came to understand each other on a level that is far too uncommon in life. It was so beautiful because no one tried to "win" an argument, and people listened with as much sincerity as they spoke. Once in awhile, people can rise above their ideologies. Funny thing is, I believe if I lived closer to Bill D, Amos and Little Hawk (and you) we could have that wonderful interchange, respecting each other, and coming to know each other without judgment. And we probably would never agree on much of anything. Good men come in all flavors. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:32 PM Gee, Jerry, I'm sorry. You know where I think a lot of the trouble is - legalism. Everybody has to have proof, to see things in black and white, right and wrong, truth and lies. The atheists and the liberal and conservative religious people are all the same - they're all tied to their doctrines, all so sure they know the truth that they're afraid to ponder the questions. I think the truth lies somewhere in the ever-changing flow of things. I suppose we have to have rules and definitions and doctrines and all that, to give us a hint of understanding of the flow - but then we get mired down when we hold onto those doctrines and rules and deify them. Yes, Jim, I do think that abortion is wrong and that the world would be a better place if we could significantly reduce the number of abortions - but I refuse to see right and wrong in legalistic terms, and I find myself boxed into corners when I try to explain my position in terms that are not my own. So, no, if you cannot accept my statement that I believe abortion is wrong, then I cannot explain it to you in terms you can understand. If you see legal coercion as the one and only way to reduce the number of abortions, then you and I cannot communicate. Too bad - we could be on the same side, if you could be a bit more open to differences in opinion and alternative means to a common end. That's why I cannot be either a Republican or a Democrat - because I cannot buy their line hook, line and sinker, and both sides demand unquestioning loyalty. There is no room for moderates any more, and certainly no foom for free thinkers who do not tie ourselves to any ideology. -Joe Offer- ...but now I suppose I have to lapse into legalism to explain something to Jerry. The pope isn't infallible - but some of the doctrines he promulgates can be infallible if they meet a raft of restrictions and qualifications. One major restriction is that almost everybody and his brother must already agree with the doctrine for centuries beforehand. Infallibility was declared in the 1870's, and has been invoked only twice - to bestow some noncontroversial titles on Mary, the mother of Jesus. Some say the pope had more credibility before the declaration of the much-misunderstood doctine of infallibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: robomatic Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:43 PM Thanks, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:32 PM I wouldn't highly recommend abortion, as a practice, but I would not presume to tell other people whether they can or cannot do it. That is entirely up to them, as far as I'm concerned, and it depends on many, many factors. Each situation has to be dealt with on its own merits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:29 PM I answered your accusation of "nonsense", Actually, Jim, no, you didn't- you dodged it & not too skilfully, at that. and the best you can do is change the subject? Sorry again, but its the same subject: the way you personally choose to define "abortion", "genocide", and "life" is the point at issue. Just 'cause you happen to believe something, or believe IN something, don't make it so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jim Tailor Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:10 PM "Having not read the bill, I'm trusting to what I heard, that the bill did not make allowance for the health of the mother You can find out for yourself here |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:59 PM Akenaton, you are probably right in what you say about most religious people...or at least a lot of them. That's what bothers me about organized religion, just as it bothers you and Bill D. You said, "Although I'm an atheist, that doesn't mean that I can't be "spiritual". I agree. An atheist can be spiritual. You clearly have quite a good spiritual awareness, in my opinion. Spirituality does not require any religion, it simply requires a keen awareness of the tremendous value of life and the tremendous value of others and of self. It requires an open heart and an open mind. It requires respect for self and for others. It can be united harmoniously with religion or it can function fine without it. That's why I like the lines in the John Lennon song, "Imagine"... "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do, nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too..." Geez, Doug, you made me laugh so hard with that line about "hanging the baptists that I spilled my drink!" :-) Naw...I say just give 'em enough rope to hang themselves instead. That usually works better, I think, and it's nonviolent... My apologies to the Baptists among you! Just couldn't resist... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: robomatic Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM Jim, thank you for your even tempered and well written response to my post above. I could have gone on for pages and it's a fine thing I didn't. It's a matter I've gone over and over again on my own and with my relatives. And life certainly goes better with faith (said the physicist). Re: Abortion: I think it is equally ludicrous to insist that a group of cells a day after fertilization is a baby as to insist that a group of cells a day before delivery is anything less. There is a song reference here, it is Monty Python's "Every sperm is sacred". I think the US Supreme Court worked hard and rendered a good decision in Roe V. Wade. When you consider how long that decision has held through emotion laden contension and rapid technological advances, it is quite remarkable. Those dreadful third trimester abortions exist for one reason only: where the mother's life is endangered. There was a story about just such a case written by a woman in just that situation in the Boston Sunday Globe about six months ago. I defy anyone to read it and not be outraged by the blanket prohibition that almost got through Congress last year. It would put a conscienscious doctor in an impossible situation. (Having not read the bill, I'm trusting to what I heard, that the bill did not make allowance for the health of the mother). I don't know where the Biblical foundation of the anti-abortion movement lies, (and of course, there are probably people who don't like abortions who don't need a Biblical foundation. I don't like abortions). I am curious as to where the concept of 'cell division' = 'baby' comes from. And of course, to put it bluntly, God performs most abortions. I had a friend spontaneously abort after a few months. She and her husband were devastated. Whatever the numbers of surgical abortions may be, each of them is the result of an individual decision, predicament, call it what you will. I'd rather have individuals in charge of their own lives. Someone might be willing to deal with a hydrocephalic young 'un. Someone else might not. My pet peeve is with those who say they are "anti-abortion, except in cases of rape or incest." They have just said they are PRO abortion, provided its on their terms. The term 'abortion on demand' is misleading to the extent it makes it seem like a stop at the hairdresser. It's an embarassing invasive procedure that has significant repercussions to the life of at least one family. If a woman is that intent on terminating her own pregnancy, and she can do so safely, I say her decision trumps government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:16 PM My, my! What hath thou wrought, Brother Joseph. And criticizing clones, yet! I'm not even going to offer my views on this subject. No one is going to move an inch. Everyone will say what they believe, and confuse it with the ultimate truth. I find it comforting to believe that I don't know everything. It's a great relief, actually. But I'm with you, Joe. Let sleeping Baptists lie. Sleeping Atheists, too. Go at it fellers! I'm going to sit this one out. I think this thread has lived it's full life anyway. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jim Tailor Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:10 PM "I think abortion is wrong" Why? (now two people can answer) Hey Kooky, have a ginchy night! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Peace Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:08 PM "I think abortion is wrong - but I also think it is wrong to try to control it by legislating it away. That answer makes me a pariah among both liberals and conservatives." That makes me a pariah, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:57 PM "I even went so far as to become a Southern Baptist for a while, until I realized that they didn't hold 'em under long enough." - Kinky Friedman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM ?? that one got me, Doug.... I'm a bit slow on the uptake, I guess |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:22 PM Just because you think something is better not made illegal doesn't mean you have to think it's right. And just because you think something is wrong doesn't mean you necessarily think the right way to deal with it is make a law against it. It sees to me that by making this a matter of constitutional rights, rather than a matter of law, you in the States have made things a lot more complicated than you needed to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: DougR Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:16 PM Right! Let's hang all the Baptists! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jim Tailor Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:48 PM I answered your accusation of "nonsense" GregF, and the best you can do is change the subject? Keep it groovy, man! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jim Tailor Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:46 PM I think abortion is wrong Hey Joe, Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:44 PM The stats aren't hysterical, Jim (tho I'm surprised someone of your predispositions would believe ANYTHING put out by the Anti-Christ, Planned Parenthood ! ) its the idiosyncratic, narrow, unscienticfic, religion-driven definition of "life" that borders on emotional excess or neurosis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jim Tailor Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:42 PM Amos, I think the discussion is (at least partially) to determine who is representing the more moderate view. It was, after all, Joe Offer who raised the "hysterical" rhetoric. By your own terms you claim "An abortion is not a murder. It is an interruption of a process that has not yet produced an individual". The implication being that, were the process far enough along, your opinion might change. But the pro-choice side is the one most adamant that that kind of line NOT be drawn -- that no distinction made to distinguish the millions of those farther along (by your own allowance as how there is a process) in the process, so as to allow the killing of those whom you would put on the "not produced individual(s)" side of the arguement. The pro-choice side, not the pro-life side is better characterized as hysterical. The pro-choice side is at least as immoderate as the pro-life. I now know 4 perfectly healthy children who only went to a 23 week term. Three are "normal". One is downs syndrome. If you were to tell the pro-choice, ultra-liberal Democrat that gave birth to that lovely downs syndrome child that she should have aborted that imperfection, I doubt that, pacifict that she may be, she wouldn't haul off and deck you. As Americans become increasingly aware of the viability of so many VERY short term births that are resulting in perfectly healthy children, they are also becoming increasingly horrified at the entrenched insistance from the Pro-choice left that no change be made in our public policy. It is becoming increasingly evident how immoderate "abortion on demand" is, or has become. g'day! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:38 PM Well, Jerry, I didn't mean to drag the discussion over to the issue of abortion. My point is that on such issues, those of the ideological right AND of the ideological left see only two answers to any question - their answer, and the wrong answer. Jim Tailor gave proof to that, I think. He spat out all the standard responses that the demogogues have fed to him. I think abortion is wrong - but I also think it is wrong to try to control it by legislating it away. That answer makes me a pariah among both liberals and conservatives. Why is it that we have to be so exclusionary, that we have to pigeonhole everyone and demonized people who don't think exactly like we do? How can we ever accomplish anything together, if we can't tolerate anybody but our own clones? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:28 PM Just an opinion Amos, but one you think is right. And precisely the same is true of people "on the other side of the divide". It just strikes me that if people could set aside those opinions for a time, and just get on with trying to cooperate in doing what they can to make sure that no pregnant woman ever feels that she has no choice but to have an abortion, that would be a significant step forwards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:27 PM there WILL be abortions as long as there are unwanted pregnancies...the only issue is whether they will be done safely and freely, or whether they will be outlawed by those who seek to impose a personal view on those who do not share their beliefs. Abortion is not a nice thing, and it would be good if we could drastically reduce the need for them with the modern resources we have...but this is NOT one of those issues that should be subject to the back & forth vagaries of Liberal and Conservative Supreme Courts. The only opinions worthy of notice are the parents...and often, only the woman.(or, if the woman is a minor, her parents). Statistics are interesting, but if there were only one case in 20 years, the rule should be the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Amos Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:15 PM An abortion is not a murder. It is an interruption of a process that has not yet produced an individual. To compare abortions with mass-murders is disingenuous, misleading and a distortion. I understand the sentimental impulse on which it is based, but I think they are orders of magnitude apart and not fit to be held up side by side in terms of cruelty and offense against one's own. I realize this is, in the final analysis, just an opinion. It would be nice if those who are so adamant on the other side of the divide would recognize the same. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:09 PM you know..I was just thinking how very bloody hard it is to straddle the fence and try to see all sides of an issue! I KNOW Jerry, and I KNOW he is not pressuring me to "get right with the Lord"....but so many other have, and certain phrases set off 'tilt' lights in my head, like when you hit a pinball machine just a bit too hard. There are infinite gradations of proselytizing...both pro and anti Christian, and everyone has their personal threshold of 'irritation'. There are people I have known for years without having any idea what their metaphysical beliefs are, though we can argue endlessly over other stuff....and in a lot of ways, that's kinda neat. Others, I know basically what church they go to, but the subject never arises except as an aside when some event causes a schedule conflict...etc. And then there are a few (not many these days)where the religious pros and cons color every aspect of our relationship, because they can't speak two sentences without some reference to 'blessings' or 'the Lord's will'...and yeah, I have known atheists who were just as bad--acting as though they had a Me...I just like clear, reasonable thinking...and in spite of what I often write in here, I have known some very religious people whose explanation of, and way of living their faith were no problem for me at all! The one thing I cannot argue with is when a person says "well, I just can't imagine a universe without a first cause, and it comforts me to put a loving intelligence behind the idea." I can explain that I don't need to imagine a 'cause', and that I get my comfort other ways...but I can't dispute the urge to resolve the wonder with a decision. I can poke at Little Hawk and his rhetorical flights of metaphysical fancy about "universal spirit" and such with my own references to "Occam's Razor" and "The Law of Parsimony"...but I'm not gonna sway him, I'd guess... I suppose I just like to see both sides of the argument presented in case any 'fence sitters' are reading...*grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Religious Left From: Jim Tailor Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:44 PM Here are the "hysterical" numbers as given by Planned Parenthood (AGI) (AGI) (CDC) 1973 744,600 615,831 1974 898,600 763,476 1975 1,034,200 854,853 1976 1,179,300 988,267 1977 1,316,700 1,079,430 1978 1,409,600 1,157,776 1979 1,497,700 1,251,921 1980 1,553,900 1,297,606 1981 1,577,300 1,300,760 1982 1,573,900 1,303,980 1983 1,575,000 1,268,987 1984 1,577,200 1,333,521 1985 1,588,600 1,328,570 1986 1,574,000 1,328,112 1987 1,559,100 1,353,671 1988 1,590,800 1,371,285 1989 1,566,900 1,396,658 1990 1,608,600 1,429,577 1991 1,556,500 1,388,937 1992 1,528,900 1.359,145 1993 1,500,000 1,330,414 1994 1,431,000 1,267,415 1995 1,363,690 1,210,883 1996 1,365,730 1,221,585 1997 1,365,730 1998 1,365,730 1999 1,365,730 40 MILLION ABORTIONS SINCE 1973 4,000 each day |
