BS: at what cost is this homecoming?

Subject: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: hilda fish
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 07:24 PM

Mamdouh Habib has arrived back in Australia after spending more than three years in Guantanamo Bay. Although he's been described as a 'suspected terrorist' neither Australia nor America has produced evidence that stands scrutiny. He comes back a free man but at what cost to him, his family, and all people of Middle Eastern background, and those Australian citizens who have challenged this detention in this and other countries? His wife Maha and his children have solidly stuck by him as has the family of the other Australian detainee David Hicks. Many Australians also have stuck by these people despite the fact that our government has done NOTHING to help these Australians and despite the fact that by both US and Australian law their detention has been more than illegal. Today there is a welcome home in a local park and songs will be sung that will recall the history of struggle, good songs that we've all sung, but for Mamdouh, Maha and their children at what cost will be this homecoming when they will pay for the rest of their lives for the slur of 'terrorism' and outcomes of the demonising of being Arab/Middle eastern. Don't get me wrong - I think terrorism is the most dreadful thing - always has been. But I believe in the idea of justice and a fair go and it is shameful that our government doesn't even give it the slightest lookin. Now lets get David Hicks back home and all the other Guantanamo Bay detainees where the 'evidence' hasn't stood the scrutiny of legal requirements,      and put up or shut up about whether Hicks and others are guilty or not. A fair, open/transparent process of justice is not only necessary, but vital to our faith in the processes that we rely on, and without it we are all vulnerable. So, welcome home for what it's worth, Habib, and hope the songs that have meant so much over time, give you some strength and hope.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:18 PM

Hilda:

Hear, hear.

A

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:21 PM

Ditto that, Hilda.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:06 AM

A law suit in his behalf might be interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:11 AM

Well said, Hilda.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: GUEST,LMFP
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:21 AM

Good that Habib is home, but what about theother guy, David Hicks, another illegal detainee. Why isn't there more outcry about this policy which violates the Geneva Convention? I'm a US citizen and I find this GITMO sitatuion horrifying.

If course, we could all go down a few threads and 'ring a bell for freedom'..maybe that would make us all feel better. NOT ( just read that stupid post....it suggests we all ring a bell for the freedom that the new elections in IRAQ are celebrating. AAAAAACKK. pardon me while I vomit)

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:41 AM

Geeze, mate, take a chill-pill.

I think a class-action suit would be of major interest.


A

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:04 PM

Heavy reading.
And disheartening. Guantanamo was not chosen for its pleasant weather.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: hilda fish
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM

In Australia we are doing as much as possible in relation to David Hicks. His father has been the most amazing of men doing, among other things, an occupation of a replica cage that he had built, in New York, wearing fulling Guantanamo Bay orange. He has also visited the Middle East and talked with people there to understand what is going on. Just an ordinary bloke before this happened, now doing extraordinary things because the injustice of it all has offended him, but also because he is a father who loves his son. However, our Government is doing NOTHING and that is the problem. There are many Australians organising and protesting (never enough of course) but we also have anti-terrorist laws here that are a danger to those who disagree with what is going on. Light a candle, say a prayer, if thats what you think helps. I personally need to do stuff that has some results i.e. write, demonstrate, have vigils, support the families etc. And here it's relevant to say, as this is a folk song site, that there is an enormous body of songs to call on and share that do a lot of stuff on many levels from helping time go by to making a disparate bunch a unit, to reminding ourselves we are part of a strong history of dissent.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:55 PM

well said, hilda. going out now, but here's something to think about -

from the free david hicks site:
sex and torture at guantanamo


guantanamo bay

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:13 PM

Well said, Hilda! As far as I'm concerned we can move all the detainees you weep for to Australia. You might want to check with your fellow Australians, though, to see if they will be welcome. All of you who are so supportive of Hilda might wish to fly down to Australia and take part in the welcoming ceremonies! Bon Voyage, I say!

It is my understanding (I could be wrong of course) that those detained were picked up on the battlefield either in Afghanstan or Iraq. Since neither country has enjoyed much in the way of tourism lately, and they were fighting coalition forces, they might (note I said might)be suspected of being terrorists. Not good guys.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:13 PM

All of this humilation and they haven't even been tried or convicted.

Is this American justice?

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: hilda fish
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:27 PM

They weren't all picked up on the 'battlefield' DougR. They were picked up in Iraq or Afganistan, countries that was invaded. Mahoud was picked up in Pakistan and held in Egypt (without charges) for six months before being taken to Guantanamo Bay. David Hicks was picked up in Åfganistan as were a fair number of others who were visitors to that country, and studying to be Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: hilda fish
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:47 PM

DougR - It is obvious that you did not read the link provided by heric. Please remember to do your homework and turn off the damn t.v.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: Teresa
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:07 AM

I pointed this out on another thread, but I feel it needs to be said here.

We've got suspected terrorists being held (supposedly legally, and can only be held so for four years in most cases) in Europe. There was an intelligence network working carefully , and these cases can't be corroborated without testimony from others now held in Guantanamo. The Americans seem to prefer to shoot first and ask questions later. Why can't we make sure all these people are tried legally? One case in Spain has a year to go before the prisoner is released, and we won't know if the true terrorists will be let go while the innocents are tortured. I just plain do not get it.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:29 PM

dianavan: and you think you can convince us that YOU waded through all that legalese? Gimme a break.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:54 PM

Doug R - Gimme a break. I read through enough of it to get the gist of it. Let me translate:

IV - Denying Judicial Review is Contrary to the Law of Civilized Nations

That means that the those being held at Guantanamo are entitled to judicial review. By denying those held, access to the courts, the U.S. is contravening the rule of law and indeed, international law.

Many of those detained were not "picked up on the battlefield" they were turned in by people just like you and me. Some were turned in by bounty hunters. There is no evidence at all that they have terrorist ties. Evidence has to be presented to an impartial court.

A Canadian was sent to a Syrian prison camp by the U.S. and tortured for many months. His crime? When he rented his house he needed to have his signature witnessed. The man who witnessed his signature was suspected of having ties to terrorists.

This was justification for detainment and torture.

Its being done in the name of the United States of America.

Is this a country to be proud of?

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: Teresa
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:56 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:47 AM

If they were fighting in Afghanistan, Doug, they had as much right to be there as your little mates.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:47 PM

Guantanamo jurisdiction

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:32 PM

Hooray!!!!

Thanks for the link heric.

From the link above: "In sum, there can be no question that the Fifth Amendment right asserted by the Guantanamo detainees in this litigation -- the right not to be deprived of liberty without due process of law -- is one of the most fundamental rights recognized by the U.S. Constitution," ...

Of course it will probably be appealed.

Subject: RE: BS: at what cost is this homecoming?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:35 PM

I guess that judge isn't seeking a higher appointment, either. Maybe he wants to be a professor.