Subject: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bill D Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:42 AM I have tried to express MY thoughts for years: here are some folks who do it perhaps a bit better than I. --------------------------------------------------------- A Free Human Being-- True education is to learn how to think, not what to think. If you know how to think, if you really have that capacity, then you are a free human being; which is the beginning of self-knowledge ð it is only such a mind that is a revolutionary mind. And a revolutionary mind is a mutating mind is the religious mind. J. Krishnamurti Think on These Things ---------------------------------------------------------- Why then does one want truth? Above all we want to triumph over falsehood and deception. What is most humiliating about custom and convention is that they appear inseparable from ignorance, misinformation, and hypocrisy. To have to accept a whole world of beliefs, forced on us by our environment, without the chance to choose or build our own world of beliefs would mean a thousandfold frustration even if all that is forced on us were based on painstaking research. But soon we find that people lie to us complacently, whether they know the facts or have not bothered to determine them. The power that constrains our freedom is seen to be arbitrary and indifferent, a slothful despotism of surpassing cynicism. Every truth we discover makes this tyranny unsafe and is a blow for freedom, and the more our previous so-called knowledge it affects, the better!" Walter Kaufmann Critique of Philosophy and Religion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Nowhere is the disproportion between effort and result more aggravating than in the pursuit of truth: you may plow through documents or make untold experiments or think and think and think, forgo food, comfort, and distractions, lie awake nights and eat your heart out -- and in the end you know what can be memorized by any idiot. What is the alternative? To suffer the tyranny of arbitrary falsehood and deception. Many truths cease to seem trite as soon as one views them as triumphs over prejudice, indifference, and dishonesty. To teach a truth without giving others some experience of the quest, the passion, the heartbreak is a crime." Walter Kaufmann Critique of Philosophy and Religion ------------------------------------------------------------ Groping among Dry Bones Our age is retrospective. It builds the sepulchres of the fathers. It writes biographies, histories and criticism. The foregoing generations beheld God and nature face to face; we, through their eyes. Why should not we also enjoy an original relation to the universe? Why should not we have a poetry and philosophy of insight and not of tradition? Why should we grope among the dry bones of the past? From the introduction to Emerson's Nature, published in 1836 ---------------------------------------------------------- It should be borne in mind, of course, that there is an inevitable discrepancy between the truth of the matter and what one thinks, even about himself. Henry Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Human Being N O T Christian or Jew or Muslim. Not Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi, or Zen. Not any religion Or cultural system. I am not from the East or the West, not out of the ocean or up From the ground, not natural or ethereal, not composed of elements at all. I do not exist, Am not an entity in this world or the next, did not descend from Adam and Eve or any Origin story. My place is the placeless, a trace of the traceless. Neither body or soul, I belong to the beloved, have seen the two worlds as one and that one call to and know. First, last, outer, inner, only that breath breathing H U M A N B E I N G. Jelaluddin Rumi _______________________________________________________ |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bill D Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:47 AM from: http://fobes.net/r00rumorslitemain.html ....."I think I finally grasp that to a very high degree belief is biological. In very basic and important ways the brain is an organ for belief. It turns ideas and experiences — and it's own interaction with itself — into feelings of realness that can hardly be denied. I think this is what Kant meant when he talked about the illusion of realism as the forming the most basic human response to the world.* This is easy to grasp. Survival depends on making fast, firm decisions about what's really happening — or what we think is really happening. This allows us to take action. There's no time for uncertainty in life-and-death situations. And let's not forget that life itself is a life-and-death situation. For some people getting positioned for eternal life is just as dire and pressing as running from a lion. This goes back to Becker and "The Denial of Death." PSYCHOLOGICAL The brain is built to make belief — but in what? This is where myth, religion, culture and tradition — as transmitters of knowledge — come into the picture. They provide the software for belief. They provide the ideas and experiences the brain uses to generate specific beliefs and behaviors. In general, the person who takes in Christian ideas and stories will become Christian. What it means to be a Christian — or a devout member of any belief system — is to see things with Christian eyes, think with a Christian brain and feel with a Christian heart. If we really absorb the precepts, we reprogram ourselves. Isn't that the very idea! The biological brain is the hardware; the ideas, rules and stories are the software. This allows the system to operate in a certain way: Meaning and importance is assigned. Perception is altered. Conclusions and judgments follow. This all seems to be about "the truth" out there in the real world, but to an amazing degree, it's simply a matter of the brain interacting with itself using ideas and information to reach conclusions. And it all feels overwhelming real. As real as true can be. DIVERSITY Now we come to the incredible diversity of absolute belief. See the irony? The point of each and every religion is to believe. But each religion says: "You absolutely better not believe what the other guy says." There's nothing in this world that does a better job of promoting certainty — or showing up its weaknesses — than religion. Religion falls on its own sword without any help from philosophers or psychologists … if one will only look at the big picture. I think we'll have a better understanding of belief if we stop looking at it as right or wrong and start looking at is as biological and psychological. TWO MORE SIDE ISSUES I realize there are exceptions to everything I am saying; I am speaking in generalities because I don't know of a better way to cover a huge subject in a brief message. 1. EDUCATION On the one hand, the more education you get the more likely you are to escape the overwhelming biological belief-making power of the brain. This is not hard to understand. By taking in more ideas you simply have more views and more ways of making sense. Education gives you a broader vista and more choices in regards the ideas you use to form beliefs. It lifts you to a larger view. Education is like upgrading your software. Some people have the ability to let new knowledge override the certainty-producing biological imperative. Socrates, David Hume, Kant, Schopenhauer, Emerson, William James and Joseph Cambell to name a few. 2. Damage Psychological damage, on the other hand, inclines people toward more absolute belief and sinks them in certainty. Damage creates fear, uncertainty and wrecks self-esteem; certainty and absolute belief empower people, and it helps them manage fear. It also erases uncertainty and boosts self-esteem. For the psychologically damaged person, absolute belief is a powerful form of therapy. It's almost a survival issue for such people. And so in regards absolute belief, damage is the opposite of education. It brings us down into a well of certainty. I don't mean to come across like I know the truth about this. I am just sharing some recent thoughts on the subject." |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bill D Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:51 AM I may have more later...but if you read those, you'll have a lot to digest. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM In the meantime, I love you, you ole cuss, for the effort. (hi Bill) ~Susan |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Amos Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:06 PM Doubled. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Rapparee Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:19 PM Amen, Brother Bill, Amen! |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM I have a little note with a quote, gone missing just now when I'm looking for it, from a broadcast interview with Tom Stoppard. His remark was along the lines of "It's not so much that we are what we eat, but that we are what we write." SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Peace Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM BillD, I have always 'looked up' to you for your kindness, intelligence, thinking, sharp wit, humility and ability to put into words what needs to be said. Ya just done it again. Much more of this and my neck is gonna need a chiropractor. Beautiful. Bruce M |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: katlaughing Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM Leave it to our *Brother* Bill:-)...insightful, beautiful, thought-provoking, etc., etc. I esp. love the Rumi quote. Here's a bit of fun to go along: Question: How many existentialists does is take to screw in a light bulb? Answer: Two. One to screw it in and one to observe how the light bulb itself symbolizes a single incandescent beacon of subjective reality in a netherworld of endless absurdity reaching out toward a cosmos of nothingness. If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. William Blake |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Jim Tailor Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:00 PM I enjoyed the read. There are, it seems to me, two models for tolerance that are active in our current state of public discourse. One claims a tolerance based upon basic human rights of existence and freedom of thought which does not infringe upon other's rights to do likewise. The other, more common one (especially here it would seem) is that tolerance is based on the accepted notion that everyone's beliefs (especially the religious) are equally invalid in objective terms. The irony is that this is not tolerance at all. What toerance is needed if, as accepted, all beliefs are equally invalid? And it fails to take into account that... 1. the first model for tolerance makes the second unnecessary, and 2. it is very condescending, and lacks basic understanding of people of faith. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: freda underhill Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:11 PM I guess this is the place to say, of all the people i admire on the cat, Bill D you are number one for your brilliant mind, openness, lack of dogma and humanity. freda |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bill D Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM *Brother*?? (thank you all for the kind words...) "If all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister?" (some comedian..I forget who) ----------------------------------------------------------------- "The child learns by believing the adult. Doubt comes after belief." Ludwig Wittgenstein On Certainty ----------------------------------------------------- "The world of a man who believes that God created him for a specific purpose, that he has an immortal soul, that there is an afterlife in which his sins will be visited upon him, is radically different from the world of a man who believes in none of these things; and the reasons for action, the moral codes, the political beliefs, the tastes, the personal relationships of the former will deeply and systematically differ from those of the latter." Isaiah Berlin, The Purpose of Philosophy (this is important...it does not take either side, it merely notes a crucial distinction that we'd be wise to keep in mind) -------------------------------------------------------------------- and one that hits ME right in my writing style... Depth According to the romantics – and this is one of their principal contributions to understanding in general – what I mean by depth, although they do not discuss it under that name, is inexhaustibility . . . No matter how long I speak, new chasms open. No matter what I say I always have to leave three dots at the end. Whatever description I give always opens the doors to something further, something even darker, perhaps, but certainly something which is in principle incapable of being reduced to precise, clear, verifiable, objective prose. Isaiah Berlin, The Roots of Romanticism ------------------------------------------------------------ In regards certainty: "Shall we espouse and endorse it? Or shall we treat it as a weakness of our nature from which we must free ourselves, if we can? I sincerely believe that the latter course is the only one we can follow as reflective men. Objective evidence and certitude are doubtless very fine ideals to play with, but where on this moonlit and dream-visited planet are they found? I live by the practical faith that we must go on experiencing and thinking over our experience, for only thus can our opinions grow more true; but to hold to any of them – I absolutely do not care which – as if it never could be reinterpretable or corrigibile, I believe to be a tremendously mistaken attitude." William James ________________________________________________________________ |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bill D Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:24 PM oh, my....freda! ...and others...I sorta welcome comments on the topic, but personal praise feels...ummm...awkward... I didn't write any of the pithy comments I quoted, I was just trying to present some perspective...and, of course, it all shows MY prejudiced view of what perspective should be..*wry smile* but it is nice that some are enjoying the ideas. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Amos Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:09 PM That William James hit it right between the eyeballs, time and time again,. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Teresa Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:29 PM "But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me." --Richard Feynman Thank you, Bill. I always enjoy seeing a well-thought-out discussion. :) Teresa |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:52 PM You did good, Bill: A lot of wonderful thoughts here to ponder. And what a pleasure to (at least so far) see a thread where someone is seriously expressing their beliefs without someone else responding in terms of body parts. :-) That's to come, I imagine.. Jerry |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Once Famous Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:55 PM Man, this thread sure is kind of self-serving. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Padre Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM MG - How is it self-serving for Bill to present us with an opportunity to THINK? Padre |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:34 PM MG-- what posts at Mudcat AREN'T?????????????? Yer slippin' man. ~S~ |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bobert Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:53 PM Yeo done hurt my head, Bill.... But in a good way... Good on you, my friend... Bobert |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Pogo Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM Ahh...very thought-provoking BillD. I see many gems of wisdom among your posts that I will put away carefully for pondering. Thanks for sharing. Jerry oh I hope it stays that way in at least ONE thread pertaining to personal beliefs *sigh* we'll see |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bill D Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:11 PM Thanks, Teresa....Feynman thought about all this as hard and rigorously as anyone, yet didn't try to insult anyone as he noted HIS take on it all. (self-serving, Martin? I guess so...I like my 'self' to be served interesting stuff to ponder that doesn't require any particular doctrine.)...like WYSIWYG says..... |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:14 PM Some very good stuff there, Bill. I've gotta go to Monday night song circle. Will hopefully get back to your thought-provoking quotes later. I really like the first one from Krishnamurti - not what to think, but how to think - Amen! |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: harpgirl Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:20 PM When you wish something to happen, choose the acts which will lead you there. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: dick greenhaus Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:49 PM Bill- That perspective stuff is going to get you in trouble some day. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: dianavan Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:33 PM Thanks Bill. Good stuff. Sometimes its hard to be me but when I read your posts above I know that the journey has been worth it. I am also grateful to my parents for leading me in the right direction. The most relevant for me today is, "education is like upgrading your software." I'm sure I'll use this quite often. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Donuel Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:59 AM It is all biological. It may seem obvious but it gets missed in the religious repeatition of the truth, be it Mohammad the one true prophet or Jesus Christ who eventually failed in court. Yet many are content to grope the dry bones of the past. Humanity as a whole has a compound eye to look at issues and phenomena. Journalism used to be the lens for public sentiment to be focused. The founding fathers recognized this. One of their own was Benjamin Franklin who was a yellow journalist. Now we have a wealthy demographic media that is fed stories direct from Central Command. It seems our compound eye has a rather large blind spot. As a result the big lie and the ugly truth are blurred on every high definition screen in America. Fixing the vote count aside, running for office was a bit like the battle to be the alpha male. However once the victor is decided, the role of the battling male king is then to become just and protect the weaker members so that others may someday have their moment in the sun. As humans we have the capacity to imagine and articulate justice. When the victor "king" ignores the duty of justice and fails to protect all except the closest members of the ruling/waring council, revolution begins to forment. The folk song is the educational glue of all such revolutions. These lessons are not lost to rulers and war makers be they fundamentalist Islamic laws that condemn all folk singing under penalty of law or a right wing corporation like Clear Channel that will attempt to destroy any songs or song makers that voice even the slightest dissent. We are here. Our duty is clear. The distractions are many and the rewards are few. The truth seen through the uncorrupted compound eye of our singers and artists is still an incredibly powerful tool to teach others how to think and not what to think. How you wish to do it is your choice. I believe one of the greatest folk singers of our time made a career by making fun of folk singers... "We are the Folk Song Army every one of us cares we are all against war and injustice unlike the rest of those squares" Tom Learher. It goes to show how some of my best new songs might even be forged from the PMs I got from some of the wonderful Christians who claim that they don't believe we are all tramps and crack addicts. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bill D Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:02 AM Dick..."that perspective stuff" has consumed a lot of my life..*grin* I kinda envy those who just say "Oh, I like THIS answer...I'll just believe it from now on, and avoid all that tedious thinking and juggling." There is a cartoon strip called "Hagar the Horrible", about a silly Viking type with very modern problems. One Sunday saw him visiting the local wizard, Dr. Zook, who had a huge stone ring leaning against the wall, like that 'money' on Yap Island. "What's this?", asks Hagar. "That's my new scientific measuring device." replys Dr. Zook, "Step in!" ....so Hagar squirms into the center of the stone ring.... "More...hunch down...squeeze tighter..." Zook says, as Hagar tries to cram himself into the tight space. Finally, he is in, awkwardly peering out at the pleased wizard. "There!", says Dr. Zook with authority, "You are exactly 5 feet tall!" |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Bill D Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:10 AM I just reminded myself of one I posted 5 years ago....I think I'll stick it in on this thread: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Charlie Brown is walking along when he comes to Lucy, kneeling and looking at something on the sidewalk... "What are you doing , Lucy?" "Charlie Brown--see this big black bug? Do you know why it's so much bigger than the others? Because it's the QUEEN!"..........so Charlie gets down and peers closely... "Lucy, that's not a bug...that's a black jelly bean!" Lucy gives him this LOOK and bends to scrutinize the bug again..."Why, so it is!...I wonder how a jelly bean ever got to be queen!" ...I have met SO many Lucys in my time...they will just NOT have their favorite theories disputed.(Anthropologists who are SURE they have found the missing link are a prime example) ------------------------------------------------------------------ and so are those who are sure there IS no need for a link |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,Wolfgang Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:28 AM A very fine compilation of thoughts and quotes. The biological basis for the development of belief and religion and the need for certainty is a very interesting but also delicate topic. I smiled when I saw who liked which quote (thinker) for that choice tells a lot about the poster. My choice is Wittgenstein, doubt comes after belief, and of course Miller, there is an inevitable discrepancy between the truth of the matter and what one thinks, even about himself. Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,jim tailor Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:33 AM I kinda envy those who just say "Oh, I like THIS answer...I'll just believe it from now on, and avoid all that tedious thinking and juggling." And I kinda envy those that are so cock-sure that this defines people of faith. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,~S~ Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:27 AM In response to the thread title-- what I am thinking in response to them is that the fragile peace over "prayer" threads is strained to the limit whenever there is a run of faith-bashing threads. Georgiansilver's recent thread is one example of how hard it is to respect the wishes of the anti-religionists and keep the muzzle on. When it's clear others are wearing no restraints at all, it's galling to have one's own freedom of speech constantly harped at and openly, sometimes intentionally intimidated. If one REALLY wants freedom, one does well to look to others' as well. There are posts here every day that are frankly slanted by atheism, paganism, and every philosophy under the sun (including hodgepodges of personal belief systems cobbled together from one or more cults that have actually harmed people). Some of them read as attempts at persuasion-- their own form of proselytization. They happen to be what passes for PC proselytization in this group of people. You don't see the Christians condemning it the way our own personal reflections have been. If one REALLY wants tolerance, one does well to tolerate others as well. IMO this forum suffers not so much from nastiness, as infantile hypocrisy. ~Susan |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,Amos Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:29 AM I don't think that was an attempt to define the creation or construction of genuine faith; but it does describe a pattern of electing some information as reliable and constant in order to relieve the pain of too much information in unresolved state, flying around. Trying to reconcile some of the claims of some proselytizers (especially those who are inclined to literal interpretation) with other noises and one's own sense of how things are can be very confusing. However, I think what you represent is a much more thoughtful and deliberate process. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,jim tailor Date: 02 Feb 05 - 10:50 AM I've observed the same phenomenon here, ~S~. And I think that, rather than... IMO this forum suffers not so much from nastiness, as infantile hypocrisy. I think the forum suffers from a mistaken notion of "neutrality" where issues of faith are concerned. Those that don't disapprove of the... posts here every day that are frankly slanted by atheism, paganism, and every philosophy under the sun (including hodgepodges of personal belief systems cobbled together from one or more cults that have actually harmed people). Some of them read as attempts at persuasion-- their own form of proselytization. ...think of themselves in some sort of "neutral" terms. Seems that only one way of faith is the only thing percieved as non-neutral -- therefore, by that kind of default setting, everything offered by that group, and that group alone, is seen as proselytizing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,~S~ (WYSIWYG abbr.) Date: 02 Feb 05 - 11:31 AM Yeah, that too, Jim, and WELL SAID. ~Susan Sometimes I feel like a nit.... sometimes I don't. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Feb 05 - 11:37 AM There are posts here every day that are frankly slanted by atheism, paganism, and every philosophy under the sun (including hodgepodges of personal belief systems cobbled together from one or more cults that have actually harmed people). "Slanted" implies a disproportionate amount of influence, in a pejorative manner, being utilized in ongoing discussions. I don't think that's the case. You're simply finding yourself in a mix of people who (like myself) were compelled by our parents or our society to keep a lid on it for years while the christians ran things and presumed that everyone else agreed with them. (Rather like all of the years in which non-smokers had to suffer the pollution of smokers lighting up anywhere they pleased, disgregarding protests, or worse, suppressing all protest.) It is past time for you to realize that this is a forum in which mainstream American christianity doesn't have a stranglehold and doesn't call the shots. As cults go, christianity is one that has done a great deal of harm to a huge number of people over the last 20 centuries, so I wouldn't choose that as a position defend (if I were in your shoes, at any rate). What Jim illustrated above might be called in the vernacular the "fish-can't-see-the-water-it-swims-in" syndrome. It's what Derrida referred to as "the center." If you're in that place where you can assume that everything you know regarding your culture and religion is identical to everyone else's experiences, then you're part of the Hegemony that others object to. And because you're there, you can't see that you're there. One needs to step away from that position ("walk a mile in other's shoes. . .") to be able to see the water for what it is. You're experiencing what postmodern scholars consider the fringes (the colonized) "writing back to the Center." SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,Amos Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:01 PM I submit that those of you who make assertions about Jesus and God get the same sort of irritated reception as might be tendered to a 12-year-old busy negotiating on behalf of her invisible playmates. The deal might be acceptable but the rationale doesn't make sense. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM And Amos, I submit that your decision to see people that way says just about all there is to say about your worth on that subject. No WONDER I find you so offensive! ~S~ |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,jim tailor Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:22 PM And I would submit to you that SRS just provided very good insight as to why you feel the need to characterize those of faith as "12 year olds" so that your fragile view of adulthood as "faith-free" isn't threatened. I'M KIDDING!!!! sort of. Groove on, friend. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:37 PM SRS, "Slanted" implies a disproportionate amount of influence, in a pejorative manner, being utilized in ongoing discussions. I don't think that's the case. You're simply finding yourself in a mix of people who (like myself) were compelled by our parents or our society to keep a lid on it for years while the christians ran things and presumed that everyone else agreed with them. That's true of SOME people, but it's true of others that they feel that having been raised that way gives them reason or excuse to deliberately attack. It is disproportionate, it is pejorative, it is deliberate. THAT's what I was referring to. I'm not the least confused about it and I don't need you to reinterpret it for me. ~Susan |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM Susan: I think even you will see that your last post as written makes little sense. I said invisible, not non-existant. And it was an analogy -- I wasn't accusing you of being a 12 year old or acting like one; I said you get a reception similar to what a 12 year old might get IF he/she were... But feel free to have a huff about it--your call. I'm in a minority here, so I'll just shuffle down to the back of the bus! !:D A |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 05 - 01:06 PM Amos, you patronizing son of a bitch. "Feel free"-- as if I need your OK about it. And I don't care if you mean it as an analogy-- you've described your persistent attempt to de-evangelize me quite clearly. It's a lot more than a "huff." ~Susan |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,jim tailor Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:36 PM Well, here's MY THINKING ABOUT RECENT THREADS (as stolen from the Simpsons -- who in my estimation ROCK compared to Bill D's hoity-toitiness (that is how you spell it isn't it? "hoity-toitiness?)... Homer: Marge? Since I'm not talking to Lisa, would you please ask her to pass me the syrup? Marge: Dear, please pass your father the syrup, Lisa. Lisa: Bart, tell Dad I will only pass the syrup if it won't be used on any meat product. Bart: You dunkin' your sausages in that syrup homeboy? Homer: Marge, tell Bart I just want to drink a nice glass of syrup like I do every morning. Marge: Tell him yourself, you're ignoring Lisa, not Bart. Homer: Bart, thank your mother for pointing that out. Marge: Homer, you're not not-talking to me and secondly I heard what you said. Homer: Lisa, tell your mother to get off my case. Bart: Uhhh, dad, Lisa's the one you're not talking to. Homer: Bart, go to your room. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:40 PM I'd spell it "hoity-tuition" but I wouldn't ascribe it to BillD. ~Susan Vile thing, you make my heart stink. You make everything... doodie. |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Amos Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:44 PM De-evangelize????? I don't even know what that means!! Evangelize: reach the gospel (to) www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn convert to Christianity; "The missionaries evangelized the Pacific Islanders" www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn Yeah, I would definitely prefer you not use this forum to do these things, if that is what you mean. Aside from that, break a leg. A |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: GUEST,jim tailor Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:48 PM It was a joke -- on my lack of erudition -- not on Bill D's offerings which I had already allowed as how I liked (above). Bill, I don't know you from Adam (no religious implication intended). I'm sure that you are not hoity-toity. Did I mention that I don't know you? ...or your hoity-toity level. Maybe you are hoity-toity. .....hey.....just a doggone.... |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM Man, Amos: That is the most dismissive, insulting comment I've heard in here in a long time... comparing people who have faith in God and Christ to 12 year old children and their imaginary playmates. You managed to out insult Martin Gibson without obscenities. That is really hurtful. Makes me wonder why I should even express my thoughts on this forum. I would have thought better from you. Jerry |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:00 PM Amos, I was referring to your persistent attempts to persuade me out of my faith, in the same way you post your certainty of how things "are" in so many of your posts in this forum. Your effort to "teach" me how to see, how to think in place of my faith. Your persistent effort to persuade me that what I consider the Good News is actually Bad News. I'm not talking about the times you stated things in terms of your own personal view, with some sense of responsibility that they were, simply, your views. I am talking about your effort to persuade. If you wanted to be completely honest, you would admit that you did quite a bit of it, and with considerable force. You continue trying to "educate" us in this forum in a similarly expert fashion. You insist on yourself as an arbiter of others' sense-- you just did it in a post directed to me, above, on top of your analogy about 12 year olds. I hate to break it to you, but your lack of the ability to know what someone else means, without demanding they defend their thoughts and their semantic choices, disqualifies you for that role. But hey, that's just my view. ~Susan |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: KathWestra Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM And there goes another good thread down the trail of "he said, she said" and name-calling. Too bad. I loved Bill's collection of thought-provoking quotes. Thanks, Bill, and I'm sorry it came to this. Kathy |
Subject: RE: BS: Thinking about recent threads -Bill D From: Big Al Whittle Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:25 PM If it swims, Alf's got it! (sign outside fish shop) |