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BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,MartyC -- a guest -- Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:43 PM Most of the "lyrics" of the Ave Maria are from the Bible & should not bother any Christian: "Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with you." [Ave Maria, gratia plena; Dominus tecum] -- spoken by the angel Gabriel to Mary at the Annunciation. The second line: "Blessed are you among women; and blessed is the fruit of your womb" [Benedicta tu in mulieribus; et benedictus fructus ventris tui] is spoken by Mary's kinswoman Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, when she greets Mary, who is coming to stay with her during her pregnancy. In the book of Luke, where these stories are told, Mary goes on to proclaim the "magnificat" -- My soul magnifies the Lord/ Magnificat anima mea... The very end of the Ave Maria might bother very strict anti-Marian Protestants, since it is not Biblical and was built up from various prayer traditions, ending with "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Still, it is ignorant to assume that the entire text is Roman Catholic. Re: the organist's refusal: He wasn't being asked to pray the end of the text out loud personally, and his attitude toward playing the organ for the deceased and the bereaved shows that he's in the wrong business! I'm writing this on the anniversary of my own mother's death, and writing it as a church musician myself, as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Feb 05 - 01:39 PM Well, when I asked who was doing the music at my mom's funeral, my sister said my dad hired somebody who could sing a "kick-ass Panis Angelicus." I don't think my mom even liked "Panis Angelicus," but Dad does. And yes, the singer did a wonderful job and got everybody to sing out strong. The music was downright spectacular. And if that's what the Lutheran organist gave for a reason for refusing to play "Ave Maria," I would have fired him, too. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Peter T. Date: 08 Feb 05 - 10:44 AM At my father's funeral, we played Helen Morgan singing "Bill" -- his favourite song -- which is about as close to a religious experience as there is, for my money, certainly on the same level as "Ave Maria". yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:53 AM Well, the point of this was, we wanted the Bach-Gounod version as an organ piece--not the song--as the prelude. One would have thought that could fly in an ELCA church where the pastor was fine with it. The organist who refused to play it "because it is a Catholic song that worships Mary, and we Lutherans only worship Jesus" (the organist's exact words) had every right to refuse, just like I had every right to fire him for refusing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:58 AM Yeah, Dick, but it wasn't an Ave Maria when he wrote it. In The Book of World-Famous Music, Fuld quotes Westrup-Harrison:
By the way, Fuld says the Shubert Ave Maria shares only a title with the Roman Catholic prayer. The text is from Sir Walter Scott's Lady of the Lake. Maybe that's so, but there's a very common version of Schubert's tune that has lyrics that ARE based on the prayer, although they are not the exact words of the prayer. Here are the Walter Scott lyrics:
We pray, Oh Maria, maiden mild. For Thou can hear us from yonder wild. And Thou can save us from despair. Save us from despair! May we sleep safely in thy care. Thy care. Though we be outcast and reviled. Maiden hear a heart in fervent prayer! Oh Mother pray hear a suppliant child! This site has the religious lyrics to the Schubert piece - I don't know if Schubert used them or not. Ave Maria gratia plena, Maria gratia plena, Maria gratia plena. Ave ave Dominus. Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus. Et benedictus. Et benedictus fructus ventris, Ventris tui Iesus. Ave Maria. Ave Maria Mater Dei. Ora pro nobis pecatoribus. Ora ora pro nobis. Ora ora pro nobis peccatoribus. Nunc et in hora mortis. In hora mortis nostrae. In hora mortis mortis nostrae. In hora mortis nostrae. Ave Maria. Ave Maria gratia plena. Maria gratia plena. Maria gratia plena. Ave ave Dominus. Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus. Et benedictus. Et benedictus fructus ventris, Ventris tui Iesus. Ave Maria. Here are the lyrics from Bach-Gounod, which are much closer to the original Latin prayer:
Dominus, tecum, benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, sancta Maria, Maria, ora pro nobis nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora, in hora mortis nostrae. Amen! Amen! -Joe Offer- This page (click) has an amazing amount of information on the many musical versions of Ave Maria. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: dick greenhaus Date: 07 Feb 05 - 05:40 PM Seems to me that Johann S. was a Lutheran himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Feb 05 - 11:49 AM Well, I'm glad the music at the funeral went well. It does sound like the first organist was unjustifiable curt, and I sympathize with you for that. If the reason for not playing it was simply that it was a Catholic song, then that's not justified, either. Still, I think it is important to remember that many or most church instrumentalists and choir directors are paid professionals with years of experience, and their experience should be respected. Musicians need to honor their audience, but it is generally up to musicians themselves to choose what is and isn't in their repertoire. If the audience has requests, the requests should be chosen from that repertoire. It may not be the situation in your case, but there are many very demanding people who use churches only for weddings and funerals, and it can be difficult or impossible for pastors and church musicians to satisfy those demands. I suppose that doctors and car mechanics have similar problems with clients who want to exercise control that goes beyond the judgment of the professional. So, my main point is that there may be two sides to the story. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 05 - 10:29 AM "As a musician, I think I should have the right not to sing bombast in church if I don't want to." Which was the attitude of the organist I fired, Joe. Of course you are right in that no one can make you do something you don't want to do. But if that is your attitude--that you are only willing to perform what you want to perform, and not what the people who are hiring you want you to perform, then why bother? The end result is the sort of trauma I went through last week with the organist who refused to play 'Ave Maria' because it was a Catholic song. Which, BTW, we did not have sung. It was played as a organ solo for the prelude. It was performed to perfection by the second organist I hired, who happens to be a professional musician, not just a church musician. The service was nice, though the pastor was also a twit to our family--peeved we fired THEIR organist. She did the very bare minimum required, and failed to play the right song on the CD--instead of "I'll Be Seeing You" we got "Time After Time" because the pastor insisted on being the one to "push the button" and then played the wrong song after I showed her twice how to do it. It wasn't a disaster, it just threw a wrench in the continuity of the service. My mom's life long best friend's remarks were read, talking about their mutual love of the WWII songs, especially "I'll Be Seeing You". The song was supposed to play immediately after her remarks, while the grandchildren and great grandchildren brought roses to the altar, and placed them in a vase by my mom's photo. Oh well. I'm just SO glad I never have to deal with those people ever again! The chapel looked beautiful, and smelled intensely of the fragrant stock and rose bouquets we received from my cousin who has a flower business. My mom's photo and bouquet looked stunning on the altar. Lots of her beloved family and friends made it, it was a gorgeous day, the organist we hired far surpassed my expectations (my advice--always go with an American Guild of Organists member!). Not only did she rehearse for 45 minutes with my daughter, but she played both piano and organ for us. She and my daughter worked out a fabulous arrangement of "Amazing Grace" that was just stunning (they ended up doing it with the piano instead of the organ, so it sounded very old timey, and left the room in tears. My daughter's voice is crystal clear, like Allison Kraus' sort of voice. And then "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" was stunning on the organ for the recessional. So musically, the only flaw was the pastor screwing up and playing the wrong song on the CD. I can't sing the praises highly enough for the organist we hired, though. This organ is a small, excellent pipe organ, and the chapel is acoustically very good--especially for a nursing home chapel. The organist was astounded at how good the quality of the organ and acoustics were. The Lutherans around here are very well bankrolled, and they have top of the line everything at this place, including a beautiful sound system for the CDs, built in behind the altar. But sadly, it's all mostly for show. All the fancy schmancy money couldn't buy compassion for the living or the dead in that place--as my daughter commented as we were leaving to go to my brother's after the service and reception. Even the organist picked up on the pastor's cold and remote attitude towards us and remarked on how she was a bit less than helpful. Oh well, it's over--and everything and most everyone my mom would have wanted was present, so that was good enough for us. I'm just tremendously relieved my mother's and our suffering for her has come to an end. Thanks again to all of you for the condolences and support in making the right decision about firing the bigoted twit, and hiring the pro! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:18 AM Yep, "Dies Irae." That's a good one, Mary - as long as you don't know what it means: "That day of wrath, that dreadful day, as Solomon and Sibyll say..." I do like the tune and the sound of it - but I don't want something with that meaning sung at my funeral. That particular song was a medieval addition to the Catholic liturgy, as were many of the hymns and traditions that were abandoned in favor of texts that are often much older. The Catholic Church teaches that death leads to resurrection, to a new life with God. "That day of wrath, that dreadful day," is not consistent with that ancient teaching, so the text was abandoned. You can go to the Catholic Church of Mel Gibson and get "Dies Irae," if that's what you want. As for those old traditional hymns you long for, most of the English-language ones aren't very old. They come from the age of Queen Victoria. The "newer" texts are actually much older, although they're in English instead of the original Greek or Latin. There's another traditional song from the funeral Mass that has been retained, although it's in English now so that people can understand it. The Latin is "In Paradisum deducant te angeli," and the Gregorian Chant tune is lovely. Some of the English-language renditions are lovely, too. The one I like best has this chorus:
May they lead you to Paradise The other prayer you mentioned:
Et lux perpetua luceat eis Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, And let perpetual light shine upon them There's good music, and there's bad music - it has always been that way. Same thing for texts. You can't blame churches for wanting to do away with hymns that are morbid or overly sentimental. Look through most modern hymnals, Catholic and otherwise, and you'll see that many of the best of the old hymns are still there. Many have been dropped, mostly those that are overly sentimental or that have unsound theology. Most church musicians that I know do things this way: they give the family a lengthy list of hymns to choose from, and honor those choices. That way, the musicians don't get forced to sing Neil Diamond's "I Am...I Said", even though it may have been the favorite song of the Dearly Departed. As for the "Ave Maria," I have to say that maybe one time out of ten, I hear somebody do a good job of the "Ave Maria" by Schubert or by Bach/Gounod. When I sing those versions, I think I sound bombastic, so I don't sing them. I think I do a very nice rendition of the Gregorian Chant "Ave Maria." It has a pure, simple, hauntingly beautiful tune - but nobody ever wants that one. They prefer bombast. As a musician, I think I should have the right not to sing bombast in church if I don't want to. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: mg Date: 06 Feb 05 - 10:45 PM Except Joe the church you are in threw away most of its beautiful music and don't have much, in my opinion, to offer the faithful in the way of tunes. Nothing I want at my recessional. I want a bunch of cute little girls giggling in the choir loft and then singing the Dies Ires and the Requiem and not giving a rip I am dead. They can skip Danny Boy and please do not even think of Amazing Grace..but how about the deceased or the family have some say? How about some of the great old hymns that you can not even find any more? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Feb 05 - 10:39 PM Well, hey, if you do a memorial service within a religious context, then you get a religious service. I suppose since I've done church work all my life, I get a little cynical about people who come to church only to get married and buried. We really do try hard to make them feel at home, but they can be very demanding customers. And churches really aren't set up to be in a merchant-customer relationship. They generally work on more of a cooperative model. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Ron Davies Date: 06 Feb 05 - 08:55 AM Also, M Ted is right about some composers. Rachmininoff's Vespers--some of the most gorgeous and moving religious music ever, and the Verdi Requiem, also a wonderful piece, were both written by composers who were not by any stretch strong believers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Ron Davies Date: 06 Feb 05 - 08:47 AM It seems absolutely crazy to look at a memorial service as primarily a religious service--as many other posters have said it has to be firstly an attempt to comfort the bereaved family. Especially in this instance--the music requested was a Christian piece obviously, so could easily be worked into a religious service-- a nod to ecumenism, for example---any real Christian should have the decency to comply and not give anybody any flak. That organist deserved to be fired on the spot--and blackballed unless his changes his attitude. The 30 Years War ended in 1648. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Feb 05 - 08:28 AM Why should the devil have all the good music? Not Wesley, Don. That is a quote from General Booth, founder of the Salvation Army. DT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,jacqui.c Date: 05 Feb 05 - 02:13 PM I agree - the man's a twit, and a self righteous one at that. I'm glad that you got someone else to play at such a time. You have enough to deal with with your loss, without this sort of behaviour. This thread made me think about what I would want when I die. I know that mostly we avoid that thought but, if you've given your loved ones an idea of your wishes, it must make it so much easier that there is one less thing that THEY have to think about and they have the comfort of knowing exactly what you want. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Bat Goddess Date: 05 Feb 05 - 01:25 PM The organist is a twit. And it's his personal prejudice, not ELCA doctrine, I'm sure. (I was brought up Missouri Synod, but my brother is an ELCA minister .) Ran into an organist in my comparative youth who refused to play Wagner's wedding march from Lohengrin because Wagner was a less than perfect person. My advice -- hire an organist who will play what you want. Linn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,Auggie Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:11 AM Sorry, That "guest" would me in the post just above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:10 AM As I said, my experience was nearly forty years ago, so hopefully even here in our little backward corner of the universe, things may have gotten more ecumenical. I haven't tried to worship there since then and surely never will (I know, I need to work on that "as we forgive those who..." part of the rule book). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:56 AM ...but of course, not all Missouri Synod congregations are quite so conservative. I went to Ash Wednesday services several years ago at a Missouri Synod church in the San Francisco Bay area, and it was lovely. My companion was Dutch Reform and I'm Catholic, but the pastor welcomed us to receive communion. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,Little Ted Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:45 AM Ave Maria? No thanks, trying to give them up |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: LadyJean Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:04 AM A friend of mine found herself in charge of her grandmother's funeral. The funeral director told her she'd have to cough up $50 for the organist. My friend decided as long as she was paying, she'd give the money to a friend. The young man was quite gifted. He was also a heavy metal musician called Animal. So, after running through his very small repetoire of hymns, he "churched up" a couple of his favorite tunes including "Homage to the Devil". My friend's mother said afterwards that she liked the new music and was going to have to start going to church more often. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Auggie Date: 04 Feb 05 - 11:37 PM You are absolutely right Don in that some synods are extremely conservative and strict in their interpretations(exactly the kind of places where Ave Maria would be verboten), while others are not. We were ALC/LCA when we moved to town nearly forty years ago, and the Missouri Synod folks wouldn't even let us in the door. Still, I believe they recite the same creeds and while practices and traditions may be quite different the underlying tenents of faith are more similar than they are different. And Guest -please excuse my lack of manners in not extending my sympathies to you previously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: M.Ted Date: 04 Feb 05 - 09:17 PM I am glad things worked out--anyone who would make a petty disturbance like this in the middle of someone else's time of need is a pathetic and miserable person. No one made the point, but Shubert was not a religious composer--he wrote what pleased him, generally without much thought of who would perform it, where it would be performed, or even whether it would be published--The result of this was that he wrote some of the most beautiful music ever, and lived and died in poverty-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:42 PM Well, so you all know, I did get great joy out of firing His High Twitness! It's not every day you get the chance to tell the overly self-righteous right wingers their brand of Christianity is very un-Christian! We won't be having this problem with my dad, though. He is adamnantly philosophical and intellectual, but having been raised Catholic in the bad old days, wants not a damn thing to do with religion of any persuasion. My mother's Lutheran piety really annoyed him, so they both gave as good as they got with each other! Is it any wonder most of their children turned out secular? Really though, it feels great to fire jerks! Hallelujah! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:40 PM Having read this thread, I am now extremely glad that neither of my parents has set foot in a church for years. It makes it much less likely that, when the time comes, I'll have to tell some pompous puffed up religious twit to kiss my ass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Don Firth Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:55 PM Not exactly, Auggie. I'm not familiar with the Wisconsin Synod, but the group of churches that identify themselves as Missouri Synod tend to be quite conservative, both theologically and politically. And they aren't just confined to Missouri. There is a Missouri Synod Lutheran church a few blocks north of where I live. Among other things, they will not allow anyone but a member of a Missouri Synod church to take communion there. Lots of rules. Kinda stiff all the way around. I think they even have a dress code. My wife used to be a member of a Missouri Synod church while she grew up in the Mid-West (her family didn't have much choice because that's all there was locally), and she says that they were pretty stiff-lipped and rigid. Now, she goes to a church a few blocks south of where we live; Central Lutheran Church, which is affiliated with ELCA. Most ELCA churches tend to be pretty liberal (despite the word "evangelical"), again, both theologically and politically. At Central, anyone who wishes to take communion there is welcome to do so, even if you are a Catholic, a Jew, a Muslim, a Druid, or a Rastafarian—if you want to. It is also a signatory of the "Affirmation of Welcome" document, that states that anyone is welcome "regardless of race, age, gender, marital status, physical and mental abilities, sexual/affectional orientation, national origin or economic status." In addition it's also the national headquarters of the Lutheran Peace Fellowship. From Missouri Synod pastors I have talked with, they tell me what it's all about and I'm expected to listen and nod. With ELCA pastors I've talked with, I can have long, drawn out discussions of theology and philosophy with them, and speculate about all kinds of different things, include how authoritatively or "literally" the Bible really should be taken. Most people who have pre-conceived notions about what pastors are like would be flabbergasted at how open-minded most ELCA pastors are (beware generalization, however). Both of these churches are Lutheran, but there is a huge difference in belief, focus, and the way they go about things. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Feb 05 - 03:07 PM I'll be thinking of you. Your family is lucky to have had you working on this and advocating for what would honor your mom. GOOD JOB. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 05 - 02:41 PM Thanks all, for the condolences & support. We've hired a lovely woman, former board member of our local chapter of American Guild of Organists (who is relieved to hear the twit organist is not a member!) Service is tomorrow, and it looks to be beautiful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Auggie Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:58 PM Evangelical Lutheran Church in America American Lutheran Church along with the Wisconsin Lutheran, Missouri Synod Lutheran, Lutheran Church in America and yada yada yada they are (were,in some cases) just different synods of the Lutheran Church. All playing the same song, more or less, just with different chords. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: MaineDog Date: 02 Feb 05 - 10:03 PM He who pays the piper calls the tune! If he will not play, you should not pay. If he threatens to sue you, remind him that such a good Christian as he claims to be is forbidden to take his brother to court! Good luck, and sympathy for you loss, but don't let anyone use this occasion to abuse you. MD |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: open mike Date: 02 Feb 05 - 10:02 PM I hope that you can enjoy your memories and find some common ground and that the services/ceremony bring yu together and not cause tension. Losing your mother is hard enough without there being struggle involved. What does ELCA stand for? ALC? good luck |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Kaleea Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:31 PM God bless you and your family as you get through this week. Glad to hear that things worked out to comfort your family. My music of the Schubert "Ave" (for voice and piano or organ accompaniment) is in 12/8. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:15 PM Funerals are for the living, in order to mourn and to pay respects to the deceased loved one. When those who you ask for assistance at such a time insist on bringing their own values to it, then you need to reconsider having them participate, or need to consider relocating if they control the venue. Neither of my parents wanted funerals, but we wanted to do something to honor them. A friend (Jean Smith) did the lion's share of the work in setting up a Song Circle and pot luck dinner a couple of months after my Dad died. It gave us time enough to get over the shock and be able to laugh and tell some pretty funny and bawdy stories during the evening. No religion was involved (Dad would have had nothing to do with in in life, as would none of us, so this was the best choice for all). Mom might have been a bit more tolerant of some religious involvement, but I think her girlhood in the Lutheran church was left behind, and she probably would have been a Unitarian if she was anything in later years. Anyway, a potluck at the local recreation center (Floral Hall in Everett, for the Northwesterners reading this) and family and friends taking turns reading from her journal entries written in a class she was taking were perfect. I hope you can get all of the arrangements worked out to your comfort and satisfaction. It will make the event so much more powerful for you. Take care! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Pauline L Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:02 PM The organist is a twit. His theology appears muddled and, much more serious, he should respect the wishes of the deceased's family or let someone else play the organ. He is so insensitive at a time when the family is grieving! BTW, my sympathy to you on your loss of your mother. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,Richard H Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:41 PM Not sure if it's appropriate to ask this here... I played Ave Maria (Schubert) on soprano sax for a bride last Saturday and made a bit of a hash of it. Didn't have much time to practise with the pianist so tried it with my daughter on guitar and it went okay. The version we used is written in 6/8. The pianist's version is in common time with some really long bars and some confusion set in. Is it normally written in 6/8 or 4/4 and does it matter any? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,MC Fat Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:31 PM Until quite recently in Northern ireland at the end of the night you had to play 'God save the Queen' regardless or you wouldn't get your fee !!! There is a live recording of John mayall with Eric Clapton playing this ....true.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: ard mhacha Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:11 PM I agree with those people who do not want music at a funeral, it only prolongs the agony, the relatives of the deceased are overwhelmed with sorrow at the parting of a loved one without that sad dismal music. I know, I have been to relatives funerals which included music, and when it was left to me when my brother died in 2000, I did everyone a favour by having a requeim Mass, without the music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 05 - 01:47 PM And I just heard back from the pastor. She is fine with 'Ave Maria' and the Tony Bennett song. Just goes ta show ya, don't it? The organist is outta here! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,sian, west wales cookie-less Date: 02 Feb 05 - 11:24 AM Coincidentally, there was a schools' broadcast this a.m. on the Church and music and the mid 16th C and they covered Luther quite well ... and credited the 'devil having the good tunes' to him. He was apparently quite an accomplished musician and quite zealous about congregational singing and set a lot of hymns to folk tunes. Didn't sound like the type who would be overly-conservative in his musical choices. They also went on to say that the Council of Trent (1560s-ish) was convened to discuss the RC response to this new Protestant development and there was considerable debate about whether the RC church should have music in its services or not. Like, NO music being a possibility. Music won the day as some composer (whose name I should remember but don't) wrote such an incredibly beautiful mass that everyone was convinced that it was a Good Thing. But they did insist that composers get back to writing pieces where the words could actually be understood and that's where good ol' Palestrina came in ... And the rest, as they say, is history. And yes - that organist is a twit. sian, west wales and having troubles mudcatting today ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,Jim Dixon Date: 02 Feb 05 - 10:14 AM I don't know about all brands of Lutherans, but I know some of them are astonishingly conservative. The Church of the Lutheran Confession, for example, doesn't allow women to preach, teach, or vote; doesn't allow nonmembers to take communion; doesn't allow its members to join fraternal organizations (including the Boy Scouts!); and doesn't allow any kind of cooperative activity between CLC churches and non-CLC churches or organizations. My ex-wife was a member until she was formally excommunicated because she told the pastor she didn't believe some of their doctrines. The Lutherans that sponsor Holden Village, on the other hand, are quite liberal. I think they even use Catholic hymnals! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST,Rapaire Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:45 AM When my mother died, we, the children, chose the music, the verses to be used during the (Catholic) Mass, and I even got up after Communion and said some stuff. My brother Ted did readings (he said later that it was harder than being at her side when she died). I was at a Mass in the Newman Center at Kent State U. when the musicians did "Jeremiah Was A Bullfrog" for the post-communion hymn. Surprised the priest, but it was theologically sound. The organist is a twit, but squared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:30 AM What happens during a funeral is up to the clergy-- one chooses to have them or not have them, and where to hold the funeral. Since you've chosen to hold it there, you're stuck now with their decisions. I'm so sorry it's causing bad feeling on top of grief at your mother's passing. But what happens during the lunucheon or reception following is up to the family. There's no reason you can't plan whatever you wish, once the service is over, and it should not be necessary to ask permission and risk a turndown. Just do what you need to do during the time that's up to you. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:10 AM Thanks everyone, for the rapid response and condolences. The thing that kills me is this. It is an ELCA owned nursing home with a chapel with Lutheran pastoral care onsite, but they also have twice weekly Catholic services in this chapel, and regularly bring in part-time Catholic staff to minister to Catholic residents. They also conduct a weekly non-denominational worship service for those who aren't Lutheran or Catholic. Now, my mom was a Lutheran gal, and she wanted a traditional Lutheran memorial service, but didn't really want to be involved in the nitty gritty planning of the service, except that she wanted my daughter to sing 'Amazing Grace' and my brother to do the eulogy. I am fine with honoring and going along with the purpose of the service being the Lutheran worship service. We are being very traditional in every way except, apparently, the 'Ave Maria' request, and our Tony Bennett request. Other than that, it's Psalm 23, 'Abide With Me' and 'Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring'. We have asked to play a CD of Tony Bennett singing "I'll Be Seeing You" (a big WWII song that we chose to honor my mom's generation, many of whom will be attending the service) while her grandchildren and great grandchildren each carry a rose up to the altar where her photo and a bouquet will be. I haven't heard back from the pastor yet on this secular request, but we are hoping it will fly because it is very important to one of my sisters, who is quite adamnantly anti-religious (we've a strong streak of that in our Catholic/Lutheran/secular family). Don't know what I'll do yet about the twit. Yes, we could hire another organist, but I don't know at this point if it is worth the hassle to me. The guy is obviously just a bigoted jerk, and I am actually shocked he would pull this in an ELCA nursing home which caters to the pastoral needs of a Catholic resident population, especially for a funeral. But there you have it. Thanks for the feedback. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Feb 05 - 01:27 AM You might have trouble getting "Ave Maria" sung during Mass in some Catholic churches nowadays, particularly the Schubert and Bach/Gounod versions. Somebody got the cockamamie idea that music is supposed to be an integral part of worship that enhances and supports the meaning of the worship service. They have the gall to think that "Danny Boy" and these versions of "Ave Maria" just don't fit into worship - although they're often happy to do these pieces before or after the service. Positions like this have had a significantly negative effect on the well-being and popularity of church musicians, but I tend to think they may be right. I do have to say I'm surprised an ELCA Lutheran would refuse to play an "Ave Maria." One of the more conservative synods like Missouri or Wisconsin might be offended but not ELCA. We just started to share a church owned by an ELCA congregation, and they asked us to feel free to put up Stations of the Cross. I think I'd talk with the organist in a nonconfrontational way and find out what's behind the decision not to do the hymn - it may be a concern about offending some of the old-school Lutheran residents of the nursing home. As a church musician, I find people are always second-guessing us and suspecting us of evil motives. They can't seem to believe that we may know what we're doing, and may have valid reasons for doing things the way we do. People seem to think that at a wedding or a funeral, the clergy and musicians are there to serve the whims of the people getting married or buried. The primary aim is to conduct a worship service - the other concerns are honored, but they should be secondary. I once had to sing at the funeral Mass of a woman whos daughter wanted 14 hymns sung. Our choir director gave in to her pressure, but it certainly got tedious. And yeah, I think we sang "Danny Boy." -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: mg Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:02 AM Yes. Organist is a twit along the lines of the various Catholic clergy who refuse to have Danny Boy sung at funerals of the old Irish American men, their dying wish. Good thing my father hated the song or I would have given them a run for their money. Get another organist and follow the wishes of your mother and family. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Rustic Rebel Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:54 PM One more thing- My sympathy to you and your family. Losing a mom is a tough thing. Remember the good times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Rustic Rebel Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:52 PM Maybe they'll let you play a tape of the song if the organist won't or can't play it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:44 PM Didn't you mean "Largo," Garg? You're right though--that's one of the easiest songs around to play. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Auggie Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:31 PM Speaking as someone who's been both ALC Lutheran and Roman Catholic, your organist is obviously true to neither, but making up his own religious rules as he goes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria From: Kaleea Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:29 PM "T'row da bum out!!" The Music at a funeral, Rosary, or memorial service is for the family--not the accompanist. Because the same type of Music every Sunday is boring, a good church Musician is one who is capable of performing Music of most any style, just as a good Musician is one who can perform rock, classical, folk, Irish, Swedish, American traditional, Bebob, various gospel styles, etc., etc. WYSIWYG may be right about the organist being too intimidated, otherwise the yahoo doesn't have ground on which to stand. They guy obviously is quite uneducated because one of the two most popular settings of "Ave Maria" uses the Bach Prelude # 1 in C major from the Well Tempered Clavier with an added melody. The minister or church board should not allow this type of censorship. I would have found another Musician! By the way, I am not nor was I raised Catholic, and am often called upon by many Catholic folks who presume that I am because I know all the usual "literature," sing very good Latin, and know lots of the old Irish songs from the Ould Sod through Tin Pan Alley & beyond. I'd rather sing in Latin that any other language--it makes one's voice sound the most beautiful. Oh yeah, & I've done Music in regular services for Protestant (lotsa flavors!), Catholic, Jewish, Greek Orthadox, Buddhist, Native American, & was even hired a couple of times to play straightforward Bluegrass at a New Age church! |
