BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria

Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 05:40 PM

Seems to me that Johann S. was a Lutheran himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:58 AM

Yeah, Dick, but it wasn't an Ave Maria when he wrote it. In The Book of World-Famous Music, Fuld quotes Westrup-Harrison:

The Bach-gounod Ave Maria has been nicely described as "a cantabile melody superimposed on the first prelude, C major, from Bach's Das wohltemperirte Clavier."

Well-Tempered Clavier was first printed in 1753-54. Gounod's Meditation appeared in print in 1853 as an instrumental piece, and it was published with the Ave Maria lyrics in 1859.

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By the way, Fuld says the Shubert Ave Maria shares only a title with the Roman Catholic prayer. The text is from Sir Walter Scott's Lady of the Lake.
Maybe that's so, but there's a very common version of Schubert's tune that has lyrics that ARE based on the prayer, although they are not the exact words of the prayer. Here are the Walter Scott lyrics:

Ave Maria! Oh listen to a mortal's prayer.
We pray, Oh Maria, maiden mild.
For Thou can hear us from yonder wild.
And Thou can save us from despair. Save us from despair!
May we sleep safely in thy care. Thy care.
Though we be outcast and reviled.
Maiden hear a heart in fervent prayer!
Oh Mother pray hear a suppliant child!

This site has the religious lyrics to the Schubert piece - I don't know if Schubert used them or not.

Ave Maria gratia plena,
Maria gratia plena,
Maria gratia plena.
Ave ave Dominus.
Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus.
Et benedictus.
Et benedictus fructus ventris,
Ventris tui Iesus.
Ave Maria.

Ave Maria Mater Dei.
Ora pro nobis pecatoribus.
Ora ora pro nobis.
Ora ora pro nobis peccatoribus.
Nunc et in hora mortis.
In hora mortis nostrae.
In hora mortis mortis nostrae.
In hora mortis nostrae.
Ave Maria.

Ave Maria gratia plena.
Maria gratia plena.
Maria gratia plena.
Ave ave Dominus.
Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus.
Et benedictus.
Et benedictus fructus ventris,
Ventris tui Iesus.
Ave Maria.

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Here are the lyrics from Bach-Gounod, which are much closer to the original Latin prayer:

Ave Maria, gratia plena,
Dominus, tecum,
benedicta tu in mulieribus
et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
Sancta Maria, sancta Maria,
Maria, ora pro nobis nobis peccatoribus,
nunc et in hora, in hora mortis nostrae.
Amen! Amen!

I guess I have to admit that I do like the Bach-Gounod, if it's sung lightly (not in operatic style), with correct Latin pronunciation, and with a light accompaniment like an acoustic guitar.

-Joe Offer-

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This page (click) has an amazing amount of information on the many musical versions of Ave Maria.

Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:53 AM

Well, the point of this was, we wanted the Bach-Gounod version as an organ piece--not the song--as the prelude. One would have thought that could fly in an ELCA church where the pastor was fine with it.

The organist who refused to play it "because it is a Catholic song that worships Mary, and we Lutherans only worship Jesus" (the organist's exact words) had every right to refuse, just like I had every right to fire him for refusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 10:44 AM

At my father's funeral, we played Helen Morgan singing "Bill" -- his favourite song -- which is about as close to a religious experience as there is, for my money, certainly on the same level as "Ave Maria".

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 01:39 PM

Well, when I asked who was doing the music at my mom's funeral, my sister said my dad hired somebody who could sing a "kick-ass Panis Angelicus." I don't think my mom even liked "Panis Angelicus," but Dad does. And yes, the singer did a wonderful job and got everybody to sing out strong. The music was downright spectacular.

And if that's what the Lutheran organist gave for a reason for refusing to play "Ave Maria," I would have fired him, too.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Organist refuses to play Ave Maria
From: GUEST,MartyC -- a guest --
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:43 PM

Most of the "lyrics" of the Ave Maria are from the Bible & should not bother any Christian: "Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with you." [Ave Maria, gratia plena; Dominus tecum] -- spoken by the angel Gabriel to Mary at the Annunciation.
The second line: "Blessed are you among women; and blessed is the fruit of your womb" [Benedicta tu in mulieribus; et benedictus fructus ventris tui] is spoken by Mary's kinswoman Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, when she greets Mary, who is coming to stay with her during her pregnancy.
In the book of Luke, where these stories are told, Mary goes on to proclaim the "magnificat" -- My soul magnifies the Lord/ Magnificat anima mea...
The very end of the Ave Maria might bother very strict anti-Marian Protestants, since it is not Biblical and was built up from various prayer traditions, ending with "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Still, it is ignorant to assume that the entire text is Roman Catholic.
Re: the organist's refusal: He wasn't being asked to pray the end of the text out loud personally, and his attitude toward playing the organ for the deceased and the bereaved shows that he's in the wrong business! I'm writing this on the anniversary of my own mother's death, and writing it as a church musician myself, as well.