BS: Pope John Paul

Subject: RE: BS: Pope John Paul
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 04:47 PM

Peter, for a group to issue a public apology is not only for the benefit of the party that was harmed. It is also a teaching tool for reforming the offending group so that the offense will not happen again. For an apology from a group to be valid, it must have the support of the vast majority of members of the group. If a significant minority in the group do not support the apology, then where is the sincerity of the apology?

Many outsiders do not seem to understand the community dynamics of the Catholic Church. They assume that the Pope has absolute authority, that Catholics must and will do whatever the Pope commands. It just doesn't work that way - in matters of faith or morals, or in apologies. Papal declarations can only reflect what is the common belief of the Church - he can't change anything simply by commanding it.

The relationship between the Vatican and extremists like Opus Dei and the Pius X society is tenuous at best - the Pius X Society was excommunicated for a time, and previous popes did various things to hold Opus Dei at bay. John Paul II has tried to hold the Church together by making concessions to the extremists. I think he has gone too far in trying to keep the peace, but I can see what he is trying to do. When you have an organization as large and diverse as the Catholic Church, you have to do a lot of politicking and compromising to keep the peace. I supose you can say that the Pope should take command and declare what is right, and exclude all those who do not agree. The trouble is, this forfeits the opportunity to change hearts, to draw right-wing Catholics away from their bigotry. It's a delicate, slow process, this business of changing minds and hearts and turning them toward the good. It doesn't always work, but it is the ideal that churches are supposed to strive for.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope John Paul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 05:19 PM

When popes have gone go in for trying to exert political force, issuing bulls excomunicating political leaders and so forth, it hasn't worked out too well for anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope John Paul
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:08 AM

Joe, you're right that the church has sometimes tried to hold Opus Dei at bay. In the UK, Cardinal Hume took that as his cue to put out strongly worded advice about anyone contemplating membership. Similarly with far more extremist cults such as the Neocatechumenate, which has broken up and destroyed many families both here in the UK and elsewhere.

Unfortunately John Paul II has become increasingly accommodating, and even openly supportive, of these factions - possibly driven by desperation a few years ago, with the catastrophic fall in vocations. There could hardly have been a stronger signal of support for Opus Dei than the canonising of its controversial founder. Hume's successor has had the ground cut from under him. A Neocatechumenate parish openly flourishes in central London and London now has its first Opus Dei parish.

By your own account it seems the Catholic church is willing to accommodate, and pussy-foot around, people who see nothing wrong with what was done in the name of that church in (for instance) Croatia, Bosnia and Slovakia. Under the watch of John Paul II it has degenerated into a miasma of authoritarian rule on the one hand, and hypocritical compromise on the other. Surely its critics are entitled to heap approbrium on this wretched institution without being accused of bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope John Paul
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:46 AM

Hmmm. I guess I've experienced more generosity and service than wretchedness.

I'm sorry you haven't seen the good side, Peter. I acknowledge the faults, but in my experience, the "good side" of the Catholic Church has been prevalent.

You seem to focus on the extremes and the exceptions - on peoples' failures rather than on their successes.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope John Paul
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:27 PM

Sorry it comes across that way, Joe. I've known some Catholic priests who were outstanding people by any measure (though one I'm thinking about in Belfast, who inherited my wonderful piano for his youth group, was forced out of pastoral responsibilities early in the troubles). To my mind they are all bismirched if the institution itself will not even try to root out its more unsavoury elements, but instead embraces them - and sometimes depends on them.

By all means respond if you wish, as I don't mean to claim the last word, but I'll call it a day now, as I've probably tested people's patience too far already.