Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven

Shanghaiceltic 03 Feb 05 - 12:16 AM
Leadfingers 03 Feb 05 - 07:14 AM
Weasel Books 03 Feb 05 - 07:31 AM
Bunnahabhain 03 Feb 05 - 11:30 AM
Peace 03 Feb 05 - 11:36 AM
Steve Parkes 03 Feb 05 - 11:44 AM
TheBigPinkLad 03 Feb 05 - 12:08 PM
PoppaGator 03 Feb 05 - 12:17 PM
Peace 03 Feb 05 - 12:25 PM
Snuffy 04 Feb 05 - 08:19 AM
Susanne (skw) 05 Feb 05 - 07:25 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM
LadyJean 05 Feb 05 - 11:20 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Feb 05 - 11:44 PM
Peace 05 Feb 05 - 11:51 PM
Clinton Hammond 05 Feb 05 - 11:52 PM
Peace 06 Feb 05 - 12:13 AM
Weasel Books 06 Feb 05 - 05:29 AM
Weasel Books 06 Feb 05 - 08:14 AM
Clinton Hammond 06 Feb 05 - 03:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Feb 05 - 03:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Feb 05 - 04:29 PM
MikeofNorthumbria 07 Feb 05 - 10:19 AM
Susanne (skw) 07 Feb 05 - 06:05 PM
Liz the Squeak 08 Feb 05 - 05:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Feb 05 - 09:46 AM
alanabit 08 Feb 05 - 03:57 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:





Subject: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:16 AM

I was told by my English Lit teacher many years ago he thought it was all anti-Scottish propaganda. The researchers are now digging deeper. I expect a full apology from the Crown (but I wont hold my breath).

The real Macbeth was not all toil and trouble
By Tom Peterkin
(Filed: 03/02/2005)
Historians and politicians have begun a campaign to rehabilitate Macbeth by claiming that his reputation has been unfairly maligned by William Shakespeare.
A drive to dispel the Scottish king's image as an evil murderer, whose name has become synonymous with bad luck and superstition, has been launched in the 1,000th year since his birth.
A group of eminent historians have persuaded politicians in the Scottish Parliament to sign a motion calling for Macbeth's achievements to be recognised.
They claim that his true character has been assassinated by Shakespeare's representation of an ambitious and ruthless tyrant fatally influenced by his domineering wife, Lady Macbeth.
Far from the Shakespearean impression of a "butcher and his fiend-like Queen", Macbeth reigned wisely over a prosperous, united Scotland in the 11th century and encouraged the spread of Christianity.
To misquote the Bard, Shakespeare's version of Macbeth's life "is nothing more than an illusion. It's like a poor actor who struts and worries for his hour on the stage".
About 20 members of the Scottish Parliament have supported the motion tabled by Alex Johnstone, the Conservative MSP for North-East Scotland.
Historians have joined the campaign, including Prof John Beatty of the City University of New York, who wants 2005 to be declared the "Year of Macbeth".
Unlike in the play, Macbeth did not murder King Duncan while he slept. Although Macbeth may have slain his rival for the throne, the deed was done in the battle of Pitgaveny in Moray in 1040.
After that Macbeth ruled for 17 years - a long reign for any king during the early Middle Ages. And the fact that there was no challenge for the throne when he went on a six-month pilgrimage to Rome suggests that his kingdom was stable and he had the respect of his subjects.
Ted Cowan, professor of history at Glasgow University, said: "One of his earliest obituaries described his time as the fertile seasons and this is the Celtic way of saying that there was good food and the people were happy, so Macbeth was quite a successful king.
"Some of the ancient Highland clans looked to Macbeth as the last great Celtic ruler in Scotland."
James Fraser, of Edinburgh University's history department, said: "You cannot assume that he was a tyrant ruling over a kingdom that hated him, which is the impression you get from the play. There is no evidence for that."
According to the historians, the Macbeth legend promoted by Shakespeare had its origins in the Scottish bardic tradition. Bards under the patronage of the rival royal line started by Malcolm Canmore rewrote history and blackened Macbeth's name to discourage future challenges to the monarch.
Shakespeare drew on these sources when he wrote the play, which strikes fear into the hearts of actors, who refer to it as the Scottish Play.
The curse of Macbeth has struck on many occasions. At the Old Vic in 1937 Laurence Olivier narrowly escaped death when a stage weight crashed down.
Other prominent Macbeths include Sir John Gielgud, Orson Welles, who directed and starred in a 1948 film of the play, and Peter O'Toole, who played the lead in a production that critics described as the worst ever adaptation.
Prof Stanley Wells, the chairman of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust at Stratford, said: "Shakespeare was concerned with writing a drama and a tragedy and would not have known that much about the real Macbeth.
"I can see that people who care about Scottish history might want to emphasise that the Shakespeare play was not an accurate portrayal."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:14 AM

The same thing applies to Richard the Third - most of Shakespeare's information on him came from writings by Dick III 's enemies .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Weasel Books
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:31 AM

This is old news!!! It's been known for years. However I still think it's one of his greatest plays.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:30 AM

A large proportion of Shakespeares plays are properganda, to a greater or lesser degree. The comedies are relativly straight, but the history plays could not be anything else.
In that era, you don't write about the ruling monachs family tree, without at least a nod towards keeping them happy.

Except the sonnets, which are simply beautiful.

bunnahbahin.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:36 AM

The real Macbeth was a good king. He ruled for about two decades. The impression given by the play is that he was kink ofr just a while. Not so, but the facts have been out there for years and made available in most school editions of the play. One can Google and find the geneologies and lineage of Macbeth and family. FYI.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:44 AM

And bear in mind that Scottish kings -- unlike English kings before the Civil War -- ruled by consent: if they weren't popular, they could be sacked (or otherwise lawfully got rid of).

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:08 PM

Can't agree about the propaganda bit. Even if Shakespeare painted Macbeth inaccurately he was complimentary to the hero characters, all Scots.

This is just another anti-English troll, isn't it, Frank? I think you've got bard envy ;o) New thread: Burns vs Shakespeare ... Bobby versus Billy in the WWF (World Writers Federation) showdown of the millenium.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:17 PM

I don't object to this being posted (although it probably belongs "downstairs" as a non-music thread).

This may be "old news" to those in the UK who are conversant with England-vs-Scotland controversies, but this college-educated American knew nothing at all about the real historical Macbeth -- and I'm glad to have been informed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:25 PM

Expecting historical accuracy from Shakespeare--well, there are easier ways to read history. Romeo and Juliet was a rewrite of a story that was around in about 1000 CE. It was not original to Shakespeare. So, the idea of trusting Shakespeare's history is not a good notion. He wrote plays to entertain and make a few bucks. That's all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 08:19 AM

His history may not be very accurate, but I reckon his batting average is still better than Hollywood's by a long way.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:25 PM

This thread is definitely not BS! See Scottish Song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

Shakespeare never claimed to be a documentarian...

d'uh...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 11:20 PM

MacBeth made a pilgrimage to Rome, which suggests he was a very popular ruler, and very successful. This having been said, The Scottish Play was my father's favorite, and I don't remember a time when I didn't know it.

Now, back in my highland dancing days, I was told that Malcolm, or was it MacDuff invented the sword dance when he put his sword over MacBeth's and danced over it. I can't think it's true, but I wonder how it got started.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 11:44 PM

Please don't call it, "The Scottish Play" either... it only serves to perpetuate stereotypical superstitious nonsense and ignorance...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 11:51 PM

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1656706,00.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 11:52 PM

Next maybe William Wallace will get up outa his grave and give Mel Gibson a good open palm slap across the face!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 12:13 AM

For you, Clinton. Enjoy.


http://members.tripod.com/~CunninghamC/HistoricDay2/WallaceStatue.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Weasel Books
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 05:29 AM

Well, the Scottish characters he is complimentary towards, were those friendly towards England. Hoiwever, it is not quite as propoganda driven as some of his other works, and was drawn from faulty histories. Let's face it, the Bard wanted a ripping yarn and got it.
And no, this thread is not English bashing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Weasel Books
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 08:14 AM

Oops, forgot to add something. I ment to say those he is complimentary about are friendly to England and/or victims of Macbeth, to strengthen the plotline and Macbeth's character.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 03:01 PM

"Lump of crap", is right brucie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 03:57 PM

Such political bias as is in the play is a bit of soft-soaping the new king, James I and VI, first king of the two kingdoms. (And a self-proclaimed expert on witches...)

The record has always shown that Macbeth was a pretty good king, as kings go - the background to all of this was the dispute between the Scotland of the Highlands and the Isles, and the Lowland Scotland. Macbeth was the last Gaelic King of Scotland.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 04:29 PM

count youself lucky that shakepeare wrote a good play about your king.

there are lots of places and people who don't get any sort of mention in the works of the greatest dramatist in the history of the world.

I remember one time meeting on the internet this woman who was a descendant of the MacLoweries shot by Wyatt Earp at the OK corral. She referred to the Earps as the Holiday /Earp gang and said that they had nicked money out of her relatives pocket when he was dead and they were generally a bad lot.

I remember saying, gosh you must be so proud to be part of a legend. She didn't reply.

When you're dead - you're lucky if anybody remembers you at all.

and Shakespeare does make Macbeth out to have many sterling qualities: bravery, a conscience, a great general, a devoted wife...

however as a british citizen I offer you my apologies for any offence caused by our greatest poet. He was almost a Brummie, coming from where he did, and they can be careless of peoples feelings- look at spaghetti junction for example.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 10:19 AM

Anyone who fancies a fictional but plausible (and thoroughly researched) account of the Big M could do a lot worse than try Dorothy Dunnett's "King Hereafter".

It's that old fashioned kind of a book that in my far-off and miss-spent youth we used to call "a rattling good yarn."

(Exits Stage Left to cries of "Shiver me timbers!" ... "Pieces of eight!" ... "Avast there, Jim lad...")

Wassail!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 06:05 PM

More serious-minded people with time on their hands might try 'MacBeth. High King of Scotland 1040-57' by Peter Berresford Ellis. (It isn't that long, just harder to read!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 05:42 AM

So why, if all these things have been proven false, do we still publish the lies in the history books?

In the case of Richard III, the true story was made public as soon as the Tudors were gone. Richard was vindicated in the 17th Century, in the 18th by Horace Walpole, and again in the 19th by another historian. But my history book from school, published in the 20th century, still stated that the sons of Edward IV were murdered at the behest or at the hands of their uncle, Richard III.

It's a prime case of Revisionist History (or as Josephine Tey in 'Daughter of Time' puts it; Tonypandy), where the winning side rewrites the record, to put them in a good light. It started the very moment Henry Tudor took the throne, by backdating all the treason warrants to the day before the Battle at Bosworth. Revisionist history is never letting the truth get in the way of a good story and is still practised today.

LTS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda prove
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 09:46 AM

Why? Because these are good stories, and we need good stories.

Whatever the truth of it, Richard III and Macbeth aren't in any way damaged by Shakespeare's spin. In fact, without the plays who'd have ever heard of these kings apart from a handful of specialist historians?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folklore: That Scottish Play..Propaganda proven
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:57 PM

It is old news, of course. The history has been around for anyone who could be bothered to look it up. It is also worth bearing in mind that censorship in Bill's day did not mean the same as it does these days. If you fall foul of the law nowadays, you might get a fine and a few hours of community service. The Tudors and Stuarts were apt to be a little less understanding about these things. It is a magnificent play (though not his best in my book) with probably the best language in Shakespeare. It ain't much use for learning history though. That is not what Shakespeare is for.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 7 August 9:24 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.