BS: Why liberals will win....

Subject: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:12 PM

After reading the likes of susu's hubby it has become increasingly obvious to me that "liberals" will win out in the long run...

(But, Bobert, the neocons have a stangle hold on control of the US and many parts of the world...)

Yeah? But look what that control has brought them. Wars. Crappy air. More poverty. And less civility. I'm thinking that liberals are pro-earth, pro-human and pro-communications. Should the planet survive the greed of the neocons, these qualities will shine thru the nwocon fog...

That's my view of it. Does that make it any easier seeing greedy people rape and pillage? No, but there's gonna come an end to their *rule*....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Pauline L
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:37 PM

Bobert, you're an idealist and a dreamer. The world needs more people like you.

Pauline

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:39 PM

Well, gosh, mame.....

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: GUEST,eddie cochranovich
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:44 PM

i always liked the one about capitalism eventually consuming itself
and being superceded by socialism..

.. they dont write 'em like that any more

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:48 PM

Long suffering, but determined? Risen to grace in the end, after being so long down-trod? I dunno, man; I think we need something more pro-active!!!:D

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 12:02 AM

the meek will inherit the earth..


what after the rich super elite have fucked it raw and dry
and rocketed off to their gated community biosphere condos on mars

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 12:33 AM

And the lion will lie down with the lamb--but one of 'em won't get a very good night's sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 03:55 AM

Well, as they keep passing anti-environment laws that allow more carbon dioxide to be poured into the atmosphere, feeding the greenhouse effect, the resultant global warming will eventually melt the polar caps. The sea level will rise and one of the first states to be completely inundated will be Florida. One of the "red" states.

Isn't it somehow ironic that the states with the most conservative voters are refered to as "red" states? I wonder what Goldwater would say about that. Or Joe McCarthy. Or Stalin. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:15 AM

Should the planet survive the greed of the neocons... That's quite a big should.

the one about capitalism eventually consuming itself
and being superceded by socialism. The first part is surely happening before our eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: DougR
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 12:16 PM

Dream on, Bobert, dream on.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 12:35 PM

But, isn't capitalism the exploitation of man by man, and socialism the reverse?

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:05 PM

Empires always crumble away, in time...

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM

Not by basic definition, no. Capitalism makes contracts between opoeple of reciprocal benefit. One of those benefits is the provision of working capital in exchange for interest.

Capitalism tends to get abusive (or seem to) when the ratio of straight labor's rewards to top management's rewards gets too low. People don't seem to mind 1:8 but if it gets to 1:40 people begin to think the boss is ripping you off.

1:8 -- the boss makes $160,000, but the warehouse forklift operator makes $20,000.

1:40 -- the warehouse forklift operator makes $20,000 and the boss makes $800,000.

Of course it varies with the scope of the business and the industry.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:21 PM

'The past is not dead, it is living in us, and will be alive in the future which we are now helping to make.' William Morris from Preface to Medieval Lore by Robert Steele 1893.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: John P
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:12 PM

Look at it in the scope of history. Hundreds of years ago, the lord of the manor could rape or kill anyone he wanted to without fear of retribution. It was accepted as the way things were. Slavery was OK in civilised society. Women were not considered to be real people. Blacks couldn't drink from the same drinking fountain as white folks. Hanged, drawn, and quartered was a common punishment. All kinds of other evil things happened. Slowly, the world gets better. And all of the improvements are toward things that were considered "liberal" in their own time.

Today, gay folks are discriminated agains and the planet is being raped, to name just two of the great evils being perpetrated by non-liberals. 50 years from now, George Bush will be in the same class as George Wallace: a famous historical bigot. 100 years from now the concept of allowing a species to go extinct will be like the concept of slavery: what were those people thinking of??

Yes, liberals will win, but only in the long term. In the short term, greed will win every time.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 01:12 PM

What?

There's no such thing as a greedy liberal?

What planet do you live on, pal?

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 01:37 PM

The thing is, most of the people who jump up and down raging about "liberals" (or the equivalent types - that particular word doesn't normally have those kind of implications outside the somewhat parochial USA) would have been in real trouble as far out left wing extremists for some of the things they belueve in, just a couple of generations ago.

That's assuming that if they'd been alive then they'd actually have been against repression of black people, and religious persecution, and the other kind of things John P mentioned...

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 01:39 PM

The thing is, most of the people who jump up and down raging about "liberals" (or the equivalent types - that particular word doesn't normally have those kind of implications outside the USA) would have been in real trouble as far-out left-wing extremists for some of the things they believe in, just a couple of generations ago.

That's assuming that, if they'd been alive then, they'd actually have been against slavery, racism, anti semitism, and the other kind of things John P mentioned...

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 05:43 PM

Don, that's what the Neo-cons have done. They've appropriated the language of the Old Left. Grover Norquist has a pic of Che Guevara on his wall. Rove has done the same thing. They are students of the New Left of the Sixties as well. So they take on "red". They refer to their cause as the "movement".

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:20 PM

Liberals tend to be "liberal" which means generous. The lie that liberals are somehow rich and exploitive is the projection of their critics who are actually rich and exploitive. They are not the liberals. For instance, Hollywood is not owned by liberals. The studios are owned by large corporations who lean toward the GOP such as Gulf and Western. Just follow the money trail.

Greed is not a liberal trait. Generally, they are humanitarian,
"bleeding hearts" if you like, and not given to exploitation.
Many of them are "dreamers" in that they don't buy into the dog-eat-dog views of the Neocon "Social Darwinists" of today. A liberal is essentially a kind of moralist which is based on a nurturing view of the world. (Back to Lakoff, again).

Liberals are not oppposed to capitalism, per se. They are opposed to unfettered capitalism which ruins the working class and when out of control, it enslaves as many as it puports to help.

The solution is a common bond between socialism and capitalism which is what Social Security represents. This has taken place in America in the best of times. The rise of the middle class of the forties under FDR was a product of this alliance. This was the time of unions and protection by government for working people.

Socialism is vastly misunderstood. It doesn't have to be monolithic as a total form of government. Social programs are socialistic such as Head Start, Affirmative Action, Post and Pre-natal Child Care, Equal Rights for Women, Planned Parenthood, the right of union arbitration and many of the constructive programs that have defined the American way of life for decades. Also, Separation of Church and State is an American ideal.

These are about to be attacked by the current Administration.
In place you will see wealth accumulated by a few, the fall of the dollar, the rise of povery (which is happening now), the suppression of freedom of speech, the thievery of money paid into the Social Security fund, the corruption of the voting process,
a tolerance for torture, and the abuse of religious fundamentalism that rivals Al Quaida madrasas. We have a so-called "Christian" Taliban that places women as beneath men, and zealots who are frothing at the mouth while they pound others over the head with the Bible and beat their children.You are seeing a disrespect for the environment through a denial of science which is being evidenced by the effects of global warming (guess what caused that tsunami), and a "clean air" initiative which in Orwellian fashion is polluting our skies and excusing those who do it.

The double-talk of the inauguration speech will become more evident and hopefully, Bush will lose on Social Security destruction and this will make him a lame duck.

If liberals win, everyone will win. The rich probably won't become poorer but the rise of working and middle class out of poverty will make this country once again a leader in the world.

The difference between the Liberals and their detractors is that the detractors won't work toward making a better life for all Americans but the Liberals will.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:49 PM

Actually, Amos, the idea that enterprise is not a zero-sum game seems to me to be becoming less and less credible. I incline more and more to simplistic views of exploitation of labour. It is the unrequited labour that gives value to capital. If I am right then the idea that capitalism involves the making of commercial agreement to mutual benefit is false.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:04 PM

The difference between the Liberals and their detractors is that the Liberals won't work toward making a better life for all Americans but the detractors will.


Just as true a statement.

One MUST define what you mean by a better life. Do you mean one in which the idea that one holds a political view different from some other person means that one is subject to abuse that, if based on sex, religion, sexual preference, or race would have everyone shouting "BIGOT"?

Or do you mean one in which the rights of all are protected by law, including the rights of a minority to hold opinions that the majority, or another minority, finds offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:03 PM

Bull, bb.... Stealing from the working class & the working poor ain't woking for a better life for all Americans... Look around you and you'll see grotesqu wealth dripping from the upper 2% who live in houses that are as large as houses that, in other countries, their leaders would live... And there's 100,000's of these 6,000 square foot McMansions. You may not be old enough to remember the 50's but eveyone lived in modest homes. Even Senators...

But something happened and all of a sudden, especially since the 80's, there seems to be this class of folks who have amasses som much monwy that they cna afford not only the McMansion, but half a dozen new cars, the beach house, etc. etc... These ain't the working class folks who are working longer and harder than at any time in modern history of US. Back to the 50's. My dad brought home a pay check and my mom had a little part time job. Most of the families in my neighborhood were one income households... Now? Everyone workd, works and works and folks are in more debt than anytime in the history of the country...

Something is way out of whack, bb. You can deny it all you want but unless you are mentally defective, I can't see how you would think this is working for the betterment of the average Joe 'cause it very much isn't. This is an unprecedenty money grab by the rich... And it obscene as are you comments defending this rape of working America...

Obscene!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:39 PM

Bobert,

"Something is way out of whack, bb. You can deny it all you want but unless you are mentally defective, I can't see how you would think this is working for the betterment of the average Joe 'cause it very much isn't. This is an unprecedenty money grab by the rich... And it obscene as are you comments defending this rape of working America..."

I have never denied that there is something out of whack.

If there are mental defectives here, it is those who insist on declaring all those who disagree with them to be defective, warped, or otherwise incompetent.

The present situation is a direct result of the attitudes promoted by the LIBERALS in the 60 and 70s, IMHO. "ME FIRST!"

Your accusations as to my comments is obscene, and really unworthy of you.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: van lingle
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 07:04 AM

Hi Bearded Bruce,
Can you please explain why "The present situation is a direct result of the attitudes promoted by the LIBERALS in the 60's and 70's, IMHO."ME FIRST!" vl

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 07:25 AM

Liberals will ultimately win because...

1. everyone wants a free lunch -- and the world is headed toward the democracy that will allow us to vote it for ourselves.
2. man wants no responsibilities for bad decisions
3. man doesn't want to be told that anything is wrong/evil/immoral (except witholding what he wants from him --- THAT'S evil).


Did the man who shot Liberty's valence ever replace it with full-length curtains?

g'mornin' all!

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 07:59 AM

vl,

A statement of my opinion. In the 60s and 70s, the basic principal the the individual has no responsibility to the nation as a whole, but that the government has to provide whatever is needed to the individual was a major part of what the liberal message said, or was interprted by the majority to say. This is the "ME FIRST!" attitude that I noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 09:31 AM

Yeah, there is a lot of "Me-Firstism" going round and it is the ruling class who have the corner captured on that market. Just look at what they consume compared to what they produce. If you think that's okay that says a lot about you.

The "free lunch" that Jim Tailor talks about is also a market the the rich have captured for themselves and now they own the government lock, stock and barrel and using it to help them fleece the working class. Whereever you look the working class is going down and the ruling class dripping in wealth... Look at health care, for instance. Like who wrote the Medicare Perscription legislation? The drug lobby, that's who. This was so obvious that the Repubs. even barred the Dems in participating in the writing of it and then broke Congressional protocol to strong arm and threaten the few Repubs who knew what was about to go down and didn't want to be part of that corruption. Who will benefit? Not the working class and that's why they are not getting sucked into digning up to get fleeced... Yeah, it's a got big price tag but it's nuthin' more than another Repub pork barrel fleecing of me and my friends since we ain't part of that 2%...

But back to the subject at hand and why the liberals will win. Just this morning in the Washington Post there is an article entitled "The Greening of Evangelicals" (Front page) which I think illusrtes that, yes, their is a chink in the armor. Seems that environmentalism is starting to sweep thru the Christain Right and guess what, bb, jim Tailor and others? As this happens a lot of evangelicals will be reviewing their support of the deregulate-everything-Bushite's-environmental policy. Now, think of the industries which will be impacted when this occurs. Lots of folks that give lots money (ripped off from the working man) to these radical Republicans... And think just how many more "national energy poloicies" will be written by the oil industry?

This is waht I'm ralking about. The Repub's have made their bed with this "morals" issue and now they are gonna have to lay in that bed and guess what? Bottom line, these crooks don't know anything about morals. Moral ain't just about being against abortion. It goes on to things like not lettin' these babies go hungruy, or cold, or uneductaed just so they can grom up to be incarcerated...

Lastly, when I think "FREE LUNCH", Enron, Halliburton, Harkin Energy, Brown & Root come to mind. Not hungry kids in a country that boasts of producing some 35% of the worlds GNP...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 09:42 AM

"it is the ruling class who have the corner captured on that market"

I don't think so. You just have to look at the McMansions, and then at twho they voted for in the last two elections- a large number of those areas were solid Democrat. Sorry if looking at the facts negates your rant.

There are MANY of us that do not agree with a lot the Bush administration is doing, but have not been given a viable ( in OUR opinion) alternative.

You continue to make assumptions of what others believe. I am pro-choice, agaisnst restricting gay marriages, and pro-environtment. But since, IMHO, Bush would have been failing in his responsibilities NOT to have attacked Iraq, given what was know at the time, and the actions of the UN and Iraq, there are some people out there who think those are not my opinions, even when I have posted then numerous times in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 09:47 AM

Bull, Part B, bb.

It was the suburbanites, where the McMansions are cropping up, that went so strong for Bush...

No rant, just facts, but don't let facts get in yer way, pal...

BTW, do you actually ever read anything?

*Fiction by proclamation* is still fiction...

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 10:16 AM

Montgomery County, MD was such a Bush stronghold.... That, PG, and Baltimore were the ONLY parts of MD that went for Kerry- and they carried the other 21 counties that had been solid Bush votes.

I read a lot- but there seems to be two (or more) sides to every topic.

Have a nice day.


*Bull by proclamation* is still Bull...

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 10:55 AM

You take one particular area and mak a genarelaization about the entire country, even trumpin' the actual totals accross the country..

And, yeah, there are two sides to every topic but only one side to a fact. Wahts so confusing about that?

And you are very much correct about "Bull by proclamation is still bull.."

Check out the facts. The election wasn't like a million years ago. There are actual voter tallies that can be had... Don't zero in one tiny speck but the entire country. If a single speck were the measure of winning I could find you prceincts in the deep South that would make Kerry the prsident...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: John P
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 11:09 AM

Martin Gibson, you wrote in response to my last post: "What? There's no such thing as a greedy liberal? What planet do you live on, pal?"

I never said there wasn't. Of course there are greedy liberals, just as there are selfless conservatives. How not? This doesn't change the fact that liberal ideals will win in the long term, and greed will trump everything in the short term.

Bearded Bruce -- yes, if someone acts like a bigot toward women, gay people, Muslims, or blacks they should expect to be called a bigot. They are, of course, free to hold their opinions all they like. But they really shouldn't whine about being called bigoted. When it gets really sick is when they try to pass their bigotry into law, like the sexual pervert we have for a president is doing.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: saulgoldie
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 12:42 PM

Montgomery County, PG, and Baltimore carried the state because they have more people. And if more people vote for one candidate, that candidate wins. (Except in calculating the electoral college representation, that is.)

BTW, (here, in Mont. County) we have plenty of suburbs, but few mcmansions, proportionally speaking. The mcmansions and the more rural parts of the county are where the (minority) Bush votes came from. Montgomery County, as a whole is far too smart to be a "Bush stronghold."

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 12:45 PM

Surely the idea that there is no obligation to society is a very far cry from any form of socialism or liberalism that I understand.

Conversely, it seems to be a part of the wellspring of modern conservatism that those in or having power have little or no obligation to the rest of society, but that the rest of the world has obligations to those in power.

Gates and pals may make the occasional grand gesture, but they resolutely defend and extend laws that explicitly assert the right of capital to profit, but deny self defence to those from whom the profit is taken. The greatest military force in the world stands ready to deny the legitimacy of any other political or economic order.

I am in fact rather concerned that "the liberals" - that is to say those who assert equal rights for all - are on the road to intentional extinction at the press of Mr Bush's button.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 03:03 PM

"...given what was known at the time..."I> - like the stocks of WMDs, and the links between Al Qaida and Iraq?

You can't ever "know" things that are false, you can just, at best, believe you know them. Or you can say you know them, because they are convenient, and then subsequently claim that you really believed what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:28 PM

McGrath,

Have you READ the British intelligence report, or the UN reports on Iraq from fall/winter of 2002-3?

I have.


They are statements of WHAT WAS KNOWN at the time of the status of Iraq's WMD programs.


Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM

"Lastly, when I think "FREE LUNCH", Enron, Halliburton, Harkin Energy, Brown & Root come to mind. Not hungry kids in a country that boasts of producing some 35% of the worlds GNP..."

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 08:20 PM

They are a statement of what was claimed to be known at the time, and in some cases, what was considered politic to put down on paper.

And what was claimed to be known was not factually accurate in some very important respects. Which means it was not actually "known".

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 08:35 PM

I ask again, HAVE YOU READ THEM?

Not a summary on some slanted news site, but the actual reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 04:07 PM

The conclusions, which turned out to be false, are sufficient to make the word "known" irrelevant in relation to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 08:45 PM

There is a book out: Reason : Why Liberals Will Win the Battle for America by Robert B. Reich, who was Clinton's Secretary of Labor. I haven't read it, but every time I've heard him speak on any topic, such as on National Public Radio, I've been impressed by how sensible he is. The fact that such a book exists encourages me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 10:43 AM

I wonder how many hungry children that Kerry has fed or helped to feed out of his McMansion? Just wondering

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:21 PM

Another rather typical hubby destraction... One thing is fir sure... Get hubby in a corner and hubby will change the subject...

Normal...

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

"I wonder..." Ain't that a great technique for casting a slur without saying a thing? Effortless and safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:43 PM

Wow, Jim! Thanks for the heads up on Robert Reich. I've heard him occasionally on interview shows and such, but I didn't know he was such a prolific writer. I did some googling on some of his writings and came up with quite a lot. HERE he is in an interview, talking about the book you mentioned.

He's a "take no prisoners" kind of guy. Says it like it is!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why liberals will win....
From: DougR
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 12:38 AM

Seems to me that you USofA liberals may have your best shot with the new Chairman of the Democratic Party, Howard Dean. I know Alice and several others will be encouraged by his election.

However, Bobert, I fear you will still be disappointed. The majority of the people in the U. S. just don't agree with your philosophy.

DougR