Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa

Subject: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: BB
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:21 PM

I have am English friend working as an Arts consultant in South Africa who is hunting for any songs in the English tradition with references to South Africa, in particular mining and Johannesburg (sp?!). I've come up against a brick wall, so if anyone has any ideas, I would be most grateful.

TIA

Barbara

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:23 PM

Well, if Music Hall counts as part of the English tradition, there is this one

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:44 PM

Try Jeremy Taylor and the show "Wait a minim" or even the Tracey brothers, Paul and Andrew, who were also in that show.
The Ballad of the Southern Suburbs, Jo'burg Talking Blues, Black/white calypso and Mommy I'd like to be are all from Jeremy.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:24 PM

What happened to my post? (It's probably resting in its full form in soem other thread, causing a nuiscance)

Here are the links that went missing :

The Baby's Name, with the chorus:
The Baby's name is Kitchener Carrington
Methuen Kekewich White,
Cronje Plumer Powell Majuba
Gatacre Warren Colenso Kruger
Cape Town Mafeking French
Kimberley Ladysmith Bobs
The Union Jack & the Fighting Mac
Lyddite Pretoria Blogs.

(The rest of the words are down that link I gave.)

And then there is:THE BOERS HAVE GOT MY DADDY

Neither are what you had in mind, I suspect. But maybe they will get the ball rolling.

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:25 PM

Afrikaanse volksmusiek is voluminous and the best known songs are found here: Afrikaanse volksmusiek

Some of us remember Marais and Miranda, but most of the S. AF. songs that they sang were Afrikaans or native, not in the "English tradition."

Little equivalent for the English tradition. Boer War songs such as "Marching to Pretoria," "Boys of the Southern Cross," "Goodbye, Dolly Gray" and similar are all that come to mind.

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

There probably won't be much from tradition, but certainly music hall (as per McGrath) and plenty of modern songs from people like Jeremy Taylor, as Robyn says.

You can see a few examples of contemporary broadside songs dealing with the wars of 1880-1881 and 1899-1902 at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

South African Wars, 1880-1881 and 1899-1902

They aren't really very interesting as songs, and are unlikely to have remained long in the popular imagination. There are also 7 examples dealing with the Zulu war of 1879, which I can't access just at present through the "subject" search function.

All I can find from "traditional" sources is Roud Folk Song Index number 5362, The [Blessed] Zulu War(s). Four examples are currently listed; from England (1), Scotland (1), Australia (2). I've only seen the Scottish text (four verses, no tune) which doesn't mention Africa at all, and would probably only be of interest as a footnote to the other versions.

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:43 PM

"Cousin Jack" by Steve Knightley of Show of Hands isn't a traditional song, but I've a feeling it mentions South Africa as one of the places emigrant Cornish miners went.

Even if it doesn't, it was one of the places they went - a Google search threw up a locally published book, Cornish Pioneers in South Africa, by Richard Dawe, published in 1998 by Cornish Hillside: "The story of the Cornish men and women who went to South Africa in the nineteenth century and played a pioneering role in the gold and diamond mines of Kimberley and the Rand (Mentioned on this bookshop page.) So there could perhaps be some Cornish songs, back in Cornwall, or somewhere out in South Africa.

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: BB
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 07:32 AM

You are all so wonderful - I was beginning to despair of being able to give my friend anything on this subject! Malcolm, he can do his own research in the Bodleian - which looks as though it might be the most useful source - I've given him the web address.

Many, many thanks, all of you!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 02:46 PM

I think the best place to be looking would be out in South Africa,rather than back in England. I mean, looking for evidence of songs that came originally from back here but which have adapted to their new home,

For comparison, there are relatively few songs in the English tradition about Australia or America, but masses of songs in Australia and America that have their roots back here.

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: GUEST,Maurice
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 03:27 PM

It's probably not quite what you're looking for, but take a look at Hamish Henderson's "Freedom Come-all-Ye". You can find it on Dick Gaughan's website.

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:04 PM

I found this about the late English folk scholar Bert Lloyd: "In early 1934 Lloyd seized an opportunity to leave Australia for a job minding merino sheep in the Transvaal."

He wasn't there for long - but at that time he was already very interested in folk song, and very knowledgeable from his time in Australia, so I think it's quite possible that his archives might have something.

If there were any South African shearing songs, for example, I would think Bert Lloyd might well have taken note of them.

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:35 PM

Lloyd's papers are held at Goldsmith's College in London. They can be examined by arrangement, but are unlikely to yield enough material relating to South Africa (there may not be any at all) to justify a visit.

http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/search2?coll_id=5503&inst_id=29

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 04:32 AM

Not really trad., but the kipling song 'Boots'
'We're foot, foot, foot, foot slogging over Africa' - especially when sung by Peter Dawson - should not be forgotten.

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 10:01 AM

The Flying Dutchman

has reference to Table Bay and The Cape.
(Good story, and widely believed to be true into 20th century.)

Keith

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 01:38 PM

Here's a reference to one music-hall song that might be interesting to chase up:

Music Hall played a significant part in shaping public opinion. There were nightly performances of patriotic songs such as My Lulu is Half-Zulu. (From this site)

Subject: RE: Songs in English trad. ref. South Africa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 01:57 PM

I wonder if that might possibly be "My Princess Zulu Lulu" words and music Dave Reed Jr, published 1901 in the States?