BS: why do we need religion

Subject: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,nosey
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:35 AM

In this day & age why do people still feel the need for religion, I really am interested to know the thoughts of mudcatters on this subject. WHY OH WHY OH WHY?????????????????/

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:42 AM

Because it starts and maintains contentious threads like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:44 AM

Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:48 AM

Some people need it and some people don't.

If that were the end of the discussion, with no ifs and buts, the world would be a saner place.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:59 AM

For comfort and solace.

It helps to believe there's a divine purpose in pain and suffering - that at the end of it all there's a just reward for those who've lived a proper life and borne their disappointments well, and a fitting punishment for those who haven't. It's a relief to believe that we're not alone when it feels like we're all alone.

It helps to lessen the fear of dying. It takes the edge off the nagging remnants of doubt that at the end of life all our trials and tribulations may have been for naught, and nothing but a return to an empty void is the only thing that awaits us.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:02 PM

....besides, it keeps temptation in check (sometimes) and helps maintain a semblance of order, for if there were no divine punishment for knowingly doing wrong, more people would be tempted to surrender to pure hedonism.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:07 PM

Actually, this is a very interesting question. There is a guy here at UVa who writes articles, among other things, about how "religion was the real hijacker on 9-11" and the dangers of religious thinking in general, for men in particular whose evolution includes lethal raiding in groups. I'll find links if I can. His main thesis is that we can no longer afford the luxury of tolerating superstitious thinking. I'm beginning to agree...

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:29 PM

Interview with Churchill (2004)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:36 PM

Maybe, just maybe...

because there is truth in one, or the other, or all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:37 PM

Religion is basic to human existence...

Catholics (at least some of them) believe in the organized religion of Catholicism. As such, that means that they believe in a long-established set of social and cultural traditions going back almost 2,000 years, which they have usually acquired from their families and their communities. So what's unusual about that?

Muslims are much the same. So too are Buddhists, Janes, Taoists, Confucianists (that's a philosophy), followers of Zen, Protestants of many denominations, Jews of various varieties of Judaism, etc....

It's a question of being born into a social fabric and assuming that it is normal, that's all. People generally do that.

Then you have the modern atheist. He practices a somewhat new religion, based on different perceptions of reality...and he worships ideals and "gods" that make sense to him. In doing so, he stands upon what makes HIM feel secure in an insecure World. What makes him feel secure may be: his own individuality (rugged individualism), his survival skills, his ego, money, property, reputation, fame, acquired knowledge, a law degree, etc....ad infinitum.

He is actually worshipping some of the "false gods" pointed to in many religious texts, but he doesn't realize it, that's all.

Everybody is religious in their own peculiar way.

If you ask why people need religion, you might as well ask why they need music, or hairstyles, or clothing styles, or politics, or philosophy, or logic, or any other common thing that people have.

Everybody does a whole bunch of things in an automatic way, not knowing why they do, mostly because they saw and heard other people doing it while they were growing up! That's what's so funny about it all. A philosopher is someone who notices how funny and arbitrary it all is and talks about it. Most people are too busy or just plain oblivious to bother with philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:38 PM

Guest, nosey

Do you take a dump everyday?

why do you bother?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:40 PM

Admirably stated, Martin. And much briefer than what I said. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:46 PM

Yes some do some don't.
My older son with challenges created an imaginary friend Mr. Prott.
My younger son did not create an imaginary friend.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:46 PM

Don`t forget religion elected George Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:50 PM

Possibly. I think what really elected him was 2 things:

1. Diebold voting machines.

2. The fact that the average American won't vote for a man that appears to be more articulate and intelligent than himself! Kerry was a dead duck, cos he wasn't just plainfolks enough to get elected in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM

religion did not elect george Bush

People with moral values did.

Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:53 PM

Yeah? You saying I don't have moral values, Martin?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:55 PM

Possibly.

Probably.

You fucking didn't vote any way, Canada brain.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:59 PM

Heh! That's true, I didn't. But look...if I could have voted, I would have voted against Bush. Several times, if possible.

Well, now I think you and I have completely derailed this thread, Martin. Nice work.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:59 PM

I just googled it. Morelle Values:

Risotto Al Sugo di Fagiano e Morelle Risotto with Pheasant and Morelle Mushrooms $13.00.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:59 PM

If I pre emptively "killed" my neighbor I suppose I would have that old time religious moral values.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:02 PM

But, Donuel, that's the only way to be really SAFE! Kill 'em all. Get your neighbours before they get you. Yessirree, Bob! Head 'em up, and smoke 'em out.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:08 PM

Hang on here just a sec. While I agree wholeheartedly that for some people the driving force behind religion is to fill a need, I would suggest that your question is framed on a tilt. There are those for whom it is a matter of discovery or simple experience of part of the world.

You can squirm on that hook all you want, but for some people experience is a bit richer than plain physical sensations. The "body-is-all school" of thought may dismiss anything not so perceived as "superstition". But to do is to surely make a superstition out of materiality, one which forbids understanding the creative power of the individual. Furthermore, the purely materialist school of thought leaves precious little room for any ethics except profit, and justifies war at will, random destruction, and mud.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:18 PM

Ah...now we're back on track. Very good, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:25 PM

This is another great example of a thread that will appeal to people who already have their minds made up - and if you have to ask the question then you won't trust the answers you'll get. At least - that's my opinion.

We can also ask why some people DON'T need religion. The result will be the same. More of the "us vs. them" thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:30 PM

Excuse me, Little aHawk, I beg to differ. I don't "worship" anything. You posted: Then you have the modern atheist. He {or she, adds the pedant} practices a somewhat new religion, based on different perceptions of reality...and he worships ideals and "gods" that make sense to him. In doing so, he stands upon what makes HIM feel secure in an insecure World. What makes him feel secure may be: his own individuality (rugged individualism), his survival skills, his ego, money, property, reputation, fame, acquired knowledge, a law degree, etc....ad infinitum.
He is actually worshipping some of the "false gods" pointed to in many religious texts, but he doesn't realize it, that's all.
Everybody is religious in their own peculiar way.
I am not religious in any way. I have ideals - I don't worship them. I do not feel secure in an insecure world, and that's OK with me. I accept the insecurity. I accept the place of people in the scheme of the natural world, and that isn't at the top of any evolutionary ladder. I don't follow any gods, not even false ones. And I think I'm about as modern as an atheist can be.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM

I don't think there need by a division. It should be a given that there is a spectrum of possible realities vis-a-vis Religolandia, and everyone comes from somewhere on the map. DIversity is a plus in this respect.   Some people turn to religion because it gives them a reason NOT to face up to personal issues. Others turn to it in order to be able to deal with their own lives in a more complete way; still others thing that their lives and their "religions" are a continuous gradient, not a separated set of boxes.

I think the framing of the original question is slightly off, because what it protests against is not the essence of religion but the essence of fanaticism. There is no spiritual truth in fanaticism, whether Eastern or Western; it just isn't spiritual to believe in slaughter or hard and fast categories. At least, so it seems to me. Reactionary responses and categorical imperatives are mandates of the worst the human mind can offer; while genuine spiritual insight would presumably be of the best. Fanaticism is just a cheap excuse for ignorance; spirituality is along-term cure for it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM

Also, Martin Gibson, I take a dump whenever my colon fills up with dung, just like any other animal. No part of me fills up with the need to believe in the supernatural, nor yours either - humans want to have the unexplained explained, but there is no longer any need to find answers outside the natural world. The need was there before the invention of science, but exists no longer.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:40 PM

Good point Amos, but I'd say that we don't even need non-fanatical religion either. I would use the term "outgrow" as for any other imaginary friend.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:49 PM

Well, Mrr, let's look, for example, at the Buddhist concepts -- that there is such a thing as right living, and avoiding extremes and other well-thought-out policies can lead you to a state of enlightenment, in which you discover more and more about your spiritual nature and the nature of the universe.

No imaginary friends involved.

I suppose you could assert that enlightenment is just an imaginary substitute for facing reality, but I think in doing so you would be doing reality a major disservice and limiting your own potential at the same time.

Generally those who have done no meditation are quite sure that they will discover nothing by doing it. Oddly enough, those who have done it usually don't believe that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:07 PM

"But to do is to surely make a superstition out of materiality, one which forbids understanding the creative power of the individual."

nope, Amos.."surely" is excessive. I tend towards material explanations, but always examine them, just as I do 'spiritual' ones. I see creative power in many individuals without, I hope, any presumptions regarding where it comes from. Being able to meaningfully use a phrase like "creative power" does not automatically endow it with some alternate form of existence.


"...the purely materialist school of thought leaves precious little room for any ethics except profit, and justifies war at will, random destruction, and mud."

Well, any Kantian would severely disagree with you...there are various ways ethics can be defended and applied, working from logical principles. As to justifying war and random destruction, seems to me the 'spiritually' based systems manage that quite well also. I was not aware mud NEEDED justification...*grin*

as to the original question, it is perhaps not framed correctly, as "we" all seem to "need" different things.
It is not hard to explain (no matter what the 'truth' is) why humans could not have avoided developing religion, and we have only been able to seriously consider alternatives for a relatively short period.

If Mudcat endures for 300-400 years, perhaps scholars researching these threads will wonder why we needed to debate it at all.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:09 PM

I thought this might be appropriate as this thread has now appeared in its myriadic iteration:

Boredom (Procol Harem)

Some say they will and some say they won't
Some say they do and some say they don't
Some say they shall and some say they shan't
And some say they can and some say they can't


All in all it's all the same
But call me if there's any change

Some say there's nothing and some say there's lots
Some say they've started while some say they've stopped
Some say they're going and some say they've been
Yes, some say they're looking and some say they've seen


All in all it's all the same
But call me if there's any change

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:13 PM

I like Amos' post as well, but would just like to reiterate that there is still the possibility that religion(s) reflect objective truth -- not merely a product of imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

You need someplace to play bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:02 PM

Why would there be any basis for "good" if there really was nothing but an association of molecules in a person, with no more than that, a Skinnerian bunch of S_R links firing off on some mechanistic scheme? Why would there be any grounds for thinking of anything creative or innovating or hoping the more tedious and entropic aspects of life would change?

These things require perception and intent, or postulation, two things that molecules just don't have in them to do. You can make a videocamera out of molecules, but you can't make it perceive.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: EagleWing
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:05 PM

Any religion, any religion at all has got to be more interesting than bingo!

Oh damn! I wasn't going to get involved.

New thread

Why do people keep starting this same old thread over and over again - and somewhere down the thread someone will say it's been hi-jacked by religious people.

So I might as well do that right now.

Why are all you religionists (I do think that's a good word - wondewr what it means) keep hi-jacking every thread with the word "religion" in it. Stay out of it and stop harrassing people and throwing the Bible at them!

First you take over the thread, next you take over Mudcat. Soon the whole world!! It's a conspiracy of religionists!

There, will that do. Saves anonymous GUEST(s) from having to say it.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:09 PM

Amos - sure, there is "such a thing as right living, and avoiding extremes and other well-thought-out policies can lead you to" - and here is where we diverge -- I would then end that sentence with the word Happiness. Furthermore, since we know that it takes science to help one "discover more and more about [one's] nature and the nature of the universe" there is no need for the word "spiritual" in there at all, and suddenly, instead of being Buddhist, you're just (boringly?) sensible.
And for your later post: The basis for good is nature - pain is bad, pleasure is good; truth is good, getting caught lying isn't (but NOT getting caught, is). The only thing people add (in contrast to other animals) is that *others'* pain and pleasure makes it into the equation. No need to posit any supernatural anything laying down the law of good and bad, it's already a given.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:12 PM

...at least it's better to believe in something, anything, than to believe in nothing at all. Those who believe in nothing are the kind who one day stir from their trance to find the carnage of dead bodies and spent cartridges all around them in a fast food restaurant and an empty, semi-automatic weapon smoking in their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:19 PM

The US (and others) need religion to justify it's bloodlust. Without it, they are blood thirsty murderers. With it they are defending their beliefs.

Simple really. How many wars are being raged in the name of atheism?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM

We need religion to control the masses.

Some people need religion to support them through tough times.

Other people need religion to encourage them to seek the truth.

For every religious person, there is a reason for religion.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:42 PM

Guest, Mrr

rumor has it that your colon is perennially full of dung which makes you totally anal retentive.

I'm sure you will be pleading "Please God, Help Me." when you are writhing in pain from some kind of cancer on your deathbed. amazing how aethiests find religion at that time.

In the meantime, get out and try to find a vowel for your name.

amos, I would have to say that your discussion of molecules is great science, but has nothing to do with spiritual religion.

the moron who started this thread has a problem believing in God. Fine. wonderful. He doesn't have to. I don't have to think that he is anything other than a devil worshipper and that he might just be pure evil. who knows? Or in this loser's case who nose? I have no use for him.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: EagleWing
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:54 PM

Oh dear!

I hoped for a while that Little Hawk's attempts to derail this thread might work.

Then I thought a bit of silliness from me might help.

Instead we've got all the usual people banging their meaningless gongs so I'll leave this one alone. Bye bye.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:59 PM

Martin Gibson, I have been on what could have been my deathbed, and it did not occur to me to pray. It *did* occur to me to do whatever the doctors were telling me to do, and I did, and I survived, and I thank the science behind them. And I *do* have a vowel, if you were a regular you'd know that Mrr is short for Mrrzy (*G*). I am a member, I just don't do the cookie thing at work.
Also guest, I don't agree that "at least it's better to believe in something, anything, than to believe in nothing at all." I think it's better to believe in something real than to believe nothing at all, which is better than believing in the supernatural in this day and age.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:05 PM

Dianavan, I agree with your first point - governments do need religion to control the masses. The masses, on the other hand, need common sense.
Some people turn to religion to support them through tough times. I think they'd be better off with friends.

Other people use religion to encourage them to seek the truth. Nobody needs religion for that, just do it. Science helps, a lot.

For every religious person, there is a reason for religion. Of course. But for every nonreligious person, there is no reason for religion.

I am moving from saying "I don't believe in any gods" to saying "there are no gods" - the first seems to allow for the existence of gods in whom I don't believe, so it's almost a nonsensical statement.
But then, I'm turning into a radical rabid fanatical evangelical atheist, which I wasn't before 9-11 and our (*sigh*) gubmint's response to it.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:11 PM

"two things that molecules just don't have in them to do"

This seems to me to be very close to the difference in our viewpoints. I just have no particular problem with the idea that a critical mass of molecules MIGHT develop self-awareness concepts. And this is the way Occam would see it. Postulating META-physical concepts which are, by definition, untestable, is infinitely more complicated and open to any off-the-wall hypothesis. 'You can't prove a negative, so it just might be true.'

A.N. Whitehead not only worked out the basis for how conciousness/free-will might be based on sub-atomic particles, but also gave us the admonishment "Strive for simplicity, but learn to mis-trust it." I try to remember that.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:59 PM

Eagle Wing

It's hard to be silly when your faith is strong.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Visitywyg
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:17 PM

Hockey On? Off? Who cares? Never....

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:10 PM

Mrr - I understand your viewpoint perfectly. Yes, in your terms, you don't worship anything. That's your understanding. However, in my terms you do. It's a question of perspective.

I've never known anyone who didn't unconsciously or consciously worship someone or something. That someone or something doesn't have to be a "God" nor does it have to be part of an organized traditional religion. It doesn't require a ritual, a prayer, or any other outward behaviour. It just requires an inner devotion, an inner committment, an inner level of faith and confidence that one has in whatever one has faith in. Never seen anyone yet who didn't have faith in something, even if it was nothing more than the strength of his own fist. But...the day will come when the strength of his own fist fails him.

The human ego really wishes to bow down to no god but itself. And it loves to argue, and be "right". It's that little ego that launches silly, combative threads that ask questions like "why do we need religion". It does that because it feels threatened in some way BY organized religion...or superior to it...at any rate, not friendly to it in the least. It's a viewpoint based on holding a grudge.

Now, let me pose some different views on some stuff you said:

"governments do need religion to control the masses"

Yes and no. You can control the masses far more effectively with money! And with material goods. Religion is a joke in most places next to the control that money has on people's minds. And you know why? Because people worship money, my friend, that's why. They just pay lip service to religion. A few people will kill someone because they think it's on "God's behalf"....a great many more people will kill someone for money. Think about it. Build a religious shrine, and a few people will come there. Build a casino and millions will come there. Money is a far bigger god in the mind of the average man than God is. They look to money to solve all their problems and give them happiness. It doesn't. That's a religion, and a damned silly one too. It's a religion that is ecologically wrecking the entire World. Worry about that if you want to worry about something.

You also asked:

"How many wars are being raged in the name of atheism?"

Plenty. The Communists waged war after war in the name of atheism. The Khymer Rouge killed over a million Cambodians in the name of atheism. The Red Chinese invaded Tibet and massacred people there in the name of atheism. And they were very proud of themselves, because they had been trained to hate and despise "religion".

And you know what's really funny about all that? Communism is itself a fanatical religion...a political-economic religion that does not believe in God. It has its holy books, like Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto, it has its prophets...Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Fidel....it has its holy wars. It's a godless, humourless, materialistic religion.

It's quite easy to have a godless religion. Just make up something else to believe in besides God, believe in it fervently, preach it, prosyletize it, and attempt to convert others. Attack them if they prove unwilling to convert.

There you have a new religion, all ready to go out and fight some holy wars with. A child could do it, it's so easy.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:47 PM

Although I quibble with you on your 'personal' use of words, you make some very important points, Little Hawk. Wars have been waged in the name of anti-religious principles, though I don't particularly care for calling any strong belief a religion. When you talk to people who have narrower views of what religion is, you spend extra time arguing definitions.

'God is everywhere in all things and in all of us' can sound very important.....but if it all boils down to a personal definition, it loses something.

Aside from that, your thoughts about the social relevance of money and war, etc., and how they sometimes mimic the fervor of religion are spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

BillD:

Occam might not agree with you if the subect were examined at depth. In this wise: let us acknowledge that the physical universe contains space and time which are insensate, indifferent, imperceptive. Let us stipulate further that atoms of every element known show no sign of awareness, and their involvement into molecules appears to be purely based on an insensate mechanism.

To posit that molecules assembled beyond a certain degree of complexity can suddenly make the leap into awareness, communication, and the ability to intend strikes me as offering a really absurd extension. I am aware that systems achieve new characteristics when they achieve critical numbers of transactions, but I have seen no evidence that so fundamental a difference in basic nature as that from insensate mechanism to aware understanding has ever been achieved merely by adding complexity.

That seems ion the face of it to be a highly UN-simple assertion, one based in blind faith that it must be so, a faith almost religious in its intensity.

Also, there seems to be a school of thought here that implies that in order to be spiritual, a world-view must include God. I don't see why this is necessarily so.

A