BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:23 AM

What's all this 'red herring' and 'crimson kipper' nonsense? Maybe I'm being naive, but using facts, comparisons and examples to back an argument seems pretty normal to me.
Trouble is, there seem to be some here who seem to think that they can be convincing merely by standing on top of the heap and shouting the loudest.
Can anyone climb down from the heap and convince me that 'the will of the people' has been expressed in this case and, if so, why it shouldn't be applied in other contentious areas as well.
The ban itself is a government decision - like the PEL system. Can anyone defend both? And, if it is truly 'the will of the people' can anyone also defend the popular will to restore the death penalty?
Come on, fellas, let's have some consistency and logic here!
It's sad that the Daily Mail mentality has lodged itself so deeply in our national psyche...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:51 AM

It was in the party manifesto, I know I delivered leaflets in support of it. Hanging was not in any manifesto. We vote on what's in the manifesto's it's all we get. If the winner than carries out a manifesto pledge then that's also the nearest we get to the will of the people who voted knowing that the issue would be resolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:14 AM

The 1997 Labour Party manifesto pledged "a free vote in Parliament on whether hunting with hounds should be banned by legislation". It didn't, and Michael Foster had to bring in a private member's bill to air the issue - a bill which ran out of time.
By the 2001 manifesto this had been relegated to a free vote to "enable Parliament to reach a conclusion on the issue of hunting with dogs". No pledge to ban hunting, and not the same thing at all.
The 2003 Government bill which resulted from thaat manifesto pledge would have instituted a system of licensing and regulating hunts rather than a ban. The ammendments to that bill put forward by anti-hunting MPs which resulted in the current ban were originally described by the government as 'wrecking amendments'. However, with the back benches in ferment over the decision to go to war in Iraq, the government suddenly became more amenable to amendments.
Strangely inconsistent, when this is supposed to be an issue where there can be no moral equivocation.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:18 AM

Guest at 06:55 I regret to say that your analysis of how this Labour [Phtoooey!] party won the last general election is somewhat wide of the mark. It is a common belief, and may account for the amount of voter apathy, that governments are elected by a mojority of the people, this is untrue. It is also a canard, [fed up with herrings]
The present Labour [Phtooey!] party won the 2001 election with 24.2% of a vote of 26,366,992, which is a total of 6,380,812votes. That is the "majority" that is imposing their will on the British people. This is from an electorate of 44,401,238, stinks doesn't it?
Figures here
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:57 AM

quick officer the herrings are coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:08 AM

The ban itself is a government decision - like the PEL system. Can anyone defend both?

Probably not but - like them or not - you do have to accept both pieces of legislation as fact - and now proceed on that basis.

The point is to control a population to ensure that it does not cause economic or ecological damage.

The 'crimson kipper' list has been endless. The claim that this cruel method has any effect on controlling fox numbers is the 'fatest halibut' of them all. This has been recently demonstrated this for us by the fact that hunts can kill far more foxes by flushing and shooting them. Yet still the smelly old fish is 'plaiced' before us - as if it were fresh-caught and relevant.

It is now a fact that this law is now in force - there is no longer any 'fight against the ban' - to draw every grievance (real or imagined) into and to hide behind.

The issue now is a simple one that stands alone. Do you support moves to make legal again - the tearing apart of terrified and exhausted foxes by hounds - only for the sporting pleasure of a few?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:47 AM

It begins to look like more folk go fox hunting than voted for Tory Blur Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:54 AM

crochet.chess.quad riding.skiing.monopoly.killing animals for fun.badminton.darts.snooker.ballet.hiking.photography.reading.knitting.football.rugby.swimming.curling.writing.karate.tai kwondo.

roll up roll up. spot the odd one out and win a carcus.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:01 AM

'crochet' is the odd one out, as it should have benn spelt 'croquet.' Could you post the carcase directly to my house please? ,/font>

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:17 AM

... say he, spelling 'benn'

Good on ya, Villa Lobos

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM

Shit! Shit! Shit! You have me Sir! I will have to post a dead fox to you now!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:53 AM

Too bloody right would I support moves to make fox-hunting legal again!
And, according to the latest MORI poll, the numbers supporting the ban are dropping dramatically. Which rather knocks the old 'will of the people' canard on the head.

I'd also be interested to know what Lord Burns, who chaired the Inquiry into Hunting with Dogs would say. During the Lords debate on his report he said: "Naturally, people ask whether we were implying that hunting is cruel…The short answer to that question is no." He also stated that, "If hunting were subject to a ban, I have little doubt that at least an equivalent number of foxes, deer and hares would be killed by other means."

Even some of the leading lights in the League Against Cruel Sports appear to have taken off their blinkers:

Richard Course (former chairman and executive director of LACS) - "After 13 years of discussing and debating this issue I found it impossible to ignore the truth and facts about hunting. I have come to despise the League Against Cruel Sports, even though I was its Chairman and Chief Executive, simply because these people know as well as I do that the abolition of hunting will not make any difference to the welfare of foxes, hares or deer."

James Barrington (former executive director of LACS) - "What is often missing from the argument is a willingness to look at the full picture and to discuss the repercussions of a ban. One thing is certain: if hunting with dogs is to be proscribed, other methods to kill foxes currently in use will take its place. These methods are not all preferable to hunting as far as the suffering of animals is concerned and some will be harder, if not impossible, to bring to account."

Graham Sirl (West Country organiser for LACS): "Take away hunting and the management system will break down. Over the years, and many meetings with landowners and others, I have come to the conclusion that in the event of a total hunt ban, the deer population will be decimated. This view is shared by many, including some who remain independent on the hunting issue."

Mark Halford (Former LACS investigator) - "I am aware that few of the total number of foxes killed each year are, in fact, accounted for by hunting with hounds, but that doesn't make it any less a reasonable method of control. Compared with shooting, gassing and trapping – which are often indiscriminate, often inefficient and clearly detrimental to other wildlife – give me hunting any day."

Of course, those posting here may have more experience and expertise in the field than these four, in which case I await their views keenly.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:58 AM

flap gasp flap gasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:07 PM

Words fail him, obviously. Or is that the sound that sails make when the wind is taken out of them?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:45 PM

Thank you ted; a gentleman!

I wish to donate the innards to your nearest centre for the downtrodden and destitute. Then perhaps the unfortunate creaure would not have lived to no purpose.

Waste not, want not, after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:51 PM

This legislation says it is bad to hunt foxes, but OK to hunt rabbits and rats. I think it is legitimate to ask what is the moral basis for this distinction. So far, not one supporter of the bill has had the grace to answer this simple and obvious question. Why dont you?

I've never seen a large number of people hunting rats and rabbits using a pack of dogs for the sheer fun of killing.

Having said that, I don't recall that anyone here has championed the hunting of rats and rabbits so I'm not sure that this isn't a red herring. I don't suppose the act covers hthe hunting of cheshire cats either.

The only kind of rabbit hunting I have ever known anything about is that of culling using ferrets. My only connection with that is having eaten some of the rabbits.

I think the act is a good move. I did not have anything to do with drawing up the act and really have no reason to answer your question quoted above. It is a question to ask a member of parliament. Perhaps you should start a campaign to save the rat or something. I just find myself amazed that anyone should consider that simply because some people don't like the organised cruelty of fox hunting with hounds, they should be accused of desiring or approving of other kinds of cruelty from battery farming to rat catching.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:59 PM

"And talk to someone who hunts before YOU define THEIR motivation."

Of course those who enjoy inflicting cruelty on small animals are hardly going to say "Well, I'm a person who naturally loves to inflict pain and agony on creatures smaller than myself. I was a bully at school and have never really changed."

On the whole I don't feel one needs to ask a bully why they do it.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:10 PM

Yes but as we all know foxes that are poisoned or run over by a car always have a smile on their faces.

Ah - I have it now. Because many foxes are run over by cars it must be alright to chase them down with dogs and kill them that way.

Quite a few children are run over by cars, with or without smiles. Should we chase children with dogs as well. Quite a few of them are pests and some even carry diseases.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

You gotta mix a metaphor or two,
Yoooooooooooouuuuuuuuu
Gotta mix metaphor or two.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:48 PM

"I think a number of people have made it fairly obvious that hunting is done for enjoyment. WHether I agree with that or not is another question."

How can you possibly doubt that it's done for enjoyment, Laura?

"It's a dirty job," replied Squire Smythe, "but someone has to do it!"

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:54 PM

Giok, if people choose not to vote, they must accept what happens. They had a chance to impose their will and couldn't be bothered. That's not the fault of those who voted is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:58 PM

Of course, those posting here may have more experience and expertise in the field than these four, in which case I await their views keenly.

The experience of these five gentlemen in the field - is not from the perspective of being chased, terrified, exhausted and finally attacked by a pack of baying hounds. When they have been so sportily treated to provide those following with their fun - I may give their (quoted) views more time than I am prepared to at the moment.

The prefence and opinion on whether inflicting this sporting fun is cruel is rather lacking from the perspective of the party with the most experience of all in the field and whose view on this issue would matter the most. But no one appears to be asking the fox.......

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 02:00 PM

"What's all this 'red herring' and 'crimson kipper' nonsense? Maybe I'm being naive, but using facts, comparisons and examples to back an argument seems pretty normal to me."

Only when they're actually relevant.

Some posters (not me) have used these expressions because others are bringing in foxes killed on the road as an argument in favour of killing foxes by hunting and a whole lot of other totally irrelevant arguments in order to hide the issue of whether fox hunting in the traditional sense of that expression is cruel.

Frank L.
(Chairman of the Ban Tomato Picking, cruelty to fruit campaign)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 03:57 AM

I think the four from the League Against Cruel Sports have seen more hunts than anyone who has posted here, so they are likely to have a closer view of the fox's predicament than most.
And the Burns Inquiry, while not actually interviewing foxes, did carry out exhaustive research with vets and others to try to establish exactly what does happen. His report concluded that the experience of "being closely pursued, caught and killed above ground… seriously compromises the welfare of the fox" but that "insensibility and death will normally follow within a matter of seconds once the fox is caught".
It added: "The welfare of animals which are hunted should be compared with the welfare which on a realistic assessment, would be likely to result from the legal methods used by farmers and others to manage the populations of these animals in the event of a ban on hunting...None of the legal methods of fox control is without difficulty from an animal welfare perspective."
Not quite from the fox's mouth, but as good as you're likely to get.
BTW, I'm still awaiting a cogent answer apropos the 'great mass of the people' having spoken and the validity of their perceived views. Any takers?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:41 AM

BTW, I'm still awaiting a cogent answer apropos the 'great mass of the people' having spoken and the validity of their perceived views. Any takers?

Gervase as it was you who both introduced and questioned the validity and lack of knowledge of the 'great mass of the people'. You have already answered your own question. If you really think that inflicting cruelty upon animals for sporting pleasure is a vote winner in the UK - please go ahead on this ticket....If you are proved right - we can look forward to seeing all sorts of fun things being re-introduced. Like public executions - and throwing people to the lions.

When can we arrange for you and your knowledgable friends to be chased, terrified, exhausted and finally attacked by baying hounds, for our enjoyment? After this experience in the field - we will all be very eager the hear if these experts judge this experience to be cruel or not - assuming of course that the hounds do not rip them apart and finally kill them.

For even if foxes we able to speak and could explain their field experience to us - their bloody death may prevent them from doing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:45 AM

Public executions eh! Let me see, the initials T and B seem to spring unbidden to my mind, please feel free to nominate your own candidate.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:57 AM

Not quite from the fox's mouth, but as good as you're likely to get.

Gervase, when you next visit the doctor or dentist - I am more than willing than to come with you. And when they probe and ask you if something hurts you or not - I will be quite prepared speak for you with my expert opinion based on my experiences - as to whether it hurts YOU or not.

I am not even too sure if I think from my experiences in these places - if it is even necessary for YOU to be given an anaesthetic or any pain-killing drugs......YOU may not agree with my expert opinion, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:14 AM

Or how about John Prescott, or is that too big a meal for the poor lions?
G

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM

Sorry, didn't know you were a vet or an acknowledged expert in physiology. I apologise. As you indicate that you are, then, sure, you can sit beside me in the dentist's chair. I may wish to check you qualifications first, however!
And I questioned the validity of of the will of 'the mass of the people' because many who have posted here have claimed it as legitimacy for the Act. To quote: "the people had ignored the 'muddied waters' and had clearly spoken on this issue". And that's just from you, Roger.
My view is that the perceived view of the great mass of the people is not necessarily valid. That is why, quite rightly, we don't have a referendum on the death penalty, because we know that emotion, ignorance and venality would result in its reimposition.
The role of an MP is to represent the interests, not the opinions, of his or her constituents. As I see it, the hunting ban was instituted as a result of the cynical manipulation of prejudices, and had nothing to do with the interests of the British people, the welfare of our wildlife or the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:32 AM

TIME GENTLEMEN PLEASE!
This is going nowhere. None is so blind as he who will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:58 AM

Sorry, didn't know you were a vet or an acknowledged expert in physiology. I apologise. As you indicate that you are, then, sure, you can sit beside me in the dentist's chair. I may wish to check you qualifications first, however!

Like your friends - I am a self-appointed expert on the nature of the pain that others have to endure. Like the trust you place in them - you rather have to also place your trust in my claims .....

As for checking my qualifications first. I am reminded of a cartoon where the chap sat down in the dentist's chair and held the dentist's testicles in his hand and said - 'this isn't going to hurt
ME - is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:05 AM

As I see it, the hunting ban was instituted as a result of the cynical manipulation of prejudices, and had nothing to do with the interests of the British people, the welfare of our wildlife or the environment.

As I see it - the attempt to continue to inflict cruelty upon animals for sporting pleasure was instituted as a result of the cynical manipulation of prejudices, and had nothing to do with the interests of the British people, the welfare of our wildlife or the environment.

So we are getting closer then?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:48 AM

The experts (not self-appointed - see the link) consulted for the Burns report were, sadly, not my friends. Neither are the 500 members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons who wrote that hunting was "the natural, balanced, biological method of controlling wildlife, proven over centuries...Hunting by hounds is the most natural and humane way of controlling the population of all four quarry species - fox, deer, hare and mink - in the countryside."
Frankly, I'd rather place my trust in their informed views than in your ill-informed assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:59 AM

You're absolutely right, Johnny - this is going nowhere. There are two sides here, each convinced of its rectitude and nothing I say is going to spark at Damascene conversion in The Shambles (and as for the other way round...!).
I suppose the reason I keep rising to the bait is the faint hope that some who are undecided, or who want to give the issue some thought instead of just jerking the knee, might find some provocative material here.
Though, at more than 300 posts, it would take a masochist to read this thread all the way through! Maybe it is time to call time on this. If anyone wants any more information on hunting and the arguments against the ban, they're welcome to send me a PM.
And, of course, it leaves The Shambles with the last word (which I doubt will have any more information than his other posts)!
I'm off to listen to some music.
TTFN

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:37 AM

Julie Birchall to be publicly hung, and thrown to the lions?
G

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 01:38 PM

EagleWing - I mean if I agree with this being right or wrong. not if I agree with the actual facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:35 PM

Frankly, I'd rather place my trust in their informed views than in your ill-informed assertions.

If you mean my assertions (or opinions) that you were not in fact in any pain - whilst you had your teeth removed without any pain-killers? You may be wise not to place your trust in me. Through your agony - you may suspect that my assertion (or opinions) - that no cruelty to you was taking place - may be a less than objective assertion (or opinion)........You would be right.

The same I think is true with your experts when they try to second-guess the pain and cruelty inflicted upon hunted foxes. I should not trust their assertions (or opinions) to be objective either. I will trust to the evidence of my own eyes and give the benefit of any doubt about inflicted cruelty - (if there is any doubt) - to the fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:42 AM

"EagleWing - I mean if I agree with this being right or wrong. not if I agree with the actual facts."

Thank you for that clarification, Laura.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: *Laura*
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 09:22 PM

Just thought I'd let you all know I went hunting the other day - twas great fun, if a little scary.
:-p
xLx
p.s. - not expecting any response to this so dont worry about arguing.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 10:19 PM

Yeah, and I burgled yer 'ouse while you was out.Great when yer don't respect the law o' the land ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Foxy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:06 PM

"Just thought I'd let you all know I went hunting the other day - twas great fun, if a little scary" Who for Dear, the Fox or You?

Foxy's reply:
Just thought I'd let you all know I was the object chased by a hunt the other day - twas horrific and one pathetic idiot on her poor Horse looked scared shitless, that was a little scarey.

No need to worry about responding! Not wishing to argue! Well on that point you are dead right. How can one argue with a gutless wonder.
Best just to express disgust and contempt and point out the fact that you are, without a shadow of a doubt, a Moron Dear.
Yours (in Pieces)
Foxy