BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?

Subject: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: GUEST,jenny
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:47 PM

For the moment I work in a Registered Nursing Home & am employed by a PCT.
However, the contract to provide the care is up for tender, and private companies ( also social services ?) stand a good chance of winning the contract.

We have been assured that TUPE will apply, so all staff in post at transfer will stay on existing wage conditions. Any staff starting after will be offerred the 'going rate' - quite likely less than under AfC.

Various people claim to know that at such & such hospital, after transfer staff were all 'got rid of' after 90 days / a year - the rumour varies.

What is slightly reassuring is the home is Registered - so Registration would have to approve any staff reductions ( & hopefully won't).


Does anybody have experience of a TUPE transfer ? What happened after 90 days / a year or whatever ?

I would appreciate hearing about anyone's experiences.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM

I wish I did know more about it as we are facing something not dissimilar at the school where I work. Two schools are being combined to make a new school under PFI. It looks as if we may all have to apply for jobs in the new school whereas we had been told we would be transferred. Noone is now certain of still working there next September. However thay also seem to be saying that we will not be entitled to any redundancy packages as we will have the opportunity to apply for the job but if we don't meet criteria that will not count as being made redundant.

Subject: RE: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: GUEST,jenny
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 01:37 PM

Hi Mrs Duck,

Fingers crossed for you (for us all).

I've occasionally thought about moving from nursing to teaching, but the uncertainty about re-organisations ( and working with kids ) put me off every time.

Are you in a union ?

I've found info on the net from nursing sources - there are prob more school based sites, Unison at a guess.

Good luck,

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:37 PM

Under the Act as intended, the new employer cannot simply get rid of you after 90 days/1 year. They can only do so if the business environment changes substantially from when they took the jobs over and it is a highly debatable when that might happen. It is possible to make the case that for almost any business it is likely that SOME substantial change will happen in, say, three years, but of course it could be earlier or later.   That's one of the reasons why TUPE is so difficult. See for some background - paying particular attention to the first sentence.

What is required by the Act, of course, is not necessarily what happens in practice and because of the variability in the judgements, a new employer might find rulings to support whatever path they choose. Your union will be in the best position to give you guidance and support if it comes to it.

Subject: RE: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:37 PM

Oops - well, the link still works.

Subject: RE: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:41 PM

Particularly in teaching unions should have direct relevant experience. Are you a member of a union? If not, why not?

If you are a nurse, I believe Charles Russell still advise the Royal College of Nursing, and they also have a significant employment law practice - alas mostly for capitalists.

Alas there is nothing to stop your new employers from offering non-contractual increases (eg often cost of living) only to employees who "volunteer" to transfer off their old contracts and onto new inferior ones. NATFHE has been fighting this for some time but LIberty and the TUC have both refused to back a recent possibility to take the issue to the Court of Appeal, so the position stays as I ahve mentioned above, with the right to join a trade union under the Human Rights Act protected in name only and not in substance.

Subject: RE: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: GUEST,jenny
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 03:16 AM

Thanks DMcG & Richard, interesting info.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 04:37 AM

I have experience of TUPE in the Netherlands and Belgium. I transferred a number of telecomms staff to an outsourcer (BT) but specified over and above TUPE an additional 2-year cutoff (plus 1 for TUPE, makes 3 years).

In the laws applying in Benelux at the time (1994/5) the company could only bypass TUPE if they were officially a "company in distress", which is specified as a hair's breadth short of bankruptcy; it brings with it all sorts of adverse trading conditions, and no company would claim to be "in distress" just to get rid of some staff - it wouldn't be worth their while.

All of the staff I transferred to the outsourcer still work there, except for 5 that have retired since; and I still get Christmas cards from many of them.

I don't know the UK application of TUPE. My advice is the same as DMcG gave: talk to your union. Don't fight this alone.

Subject: RE: BS: uk jobs - after a TUPE transfer ?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 03:04 PM

I am in a similar situation with a local council -we are playing the wait and see game.