Padstow Darkie Days

Subject: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 01:37 PM

It has been confirmed today that the police took film footage of Padstow's 'Darkie Days' on Boxing day and have submitted it to the Crown Prosecution Service. On Darkie Days the local people in Padstow, as in so many other places across the UK and beyond, black up and go Guising. Quite a bit of money is raised for local charities and everyone has a good day out. It is very low key, when compared to May Day, and has been going on for hundreds of years. Apparantley it is to do with 'public disorder'. Two or three years ago Bernie Grant MP tried to get it stopped as he considered 'blacking up' was racist. It was pointed out to him that in many African countries people 'white up' to go guising or its equivalent. If this is upheld then the logical next step is that any blacked face dancer, mummer or guiser is also breaking the law. It could be the end of Molly teams, Bacup Coconut Dancers (whose dances are said to have their roots in Cornwall) and Border Morris. So, watch this space. As the story unfolds we'll keep you posted on its progress.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Tobyjug
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 01:57 PM

Is this the sharp edge of Political Correctness being wielded again?

I thought Maggie Thatcher (sorry Lady Thatcher) put an end to this when she managed to get closed-shop trade unions banned. Or did she just start the rot?

Seems to me this could be a much more serious attack on the sovereignty of the British way of life being waged from within, rather than anything Europe can throw at Britain.

We may need to take the defence of British traditions to the highest court.
Perhaps there are some sensible supporters of ancient traditions in the CPS after all.

Do the police have nothing better to do in Padstow at Christmas time? It must be very crime-free down in Cornwall. No drunken drivers, Christmas tree thieves and the like.

Lets hope that this is an April fool joke that came out early.
Or will April fooling be consigned to the scrap heap of history too?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:00 PM

Hmmm. I'd like to know more about this celebration and the way people react to it. I don't think people would dare go blackface in the U.S. nowadays. Since the 1960's, it's been considered socially unacceptable. It was common in the 1950's and earlier. When I was a kid in Detroit in the 1950's, we'd blacken our faces with burnt cork and go trick-or-treating on Halloween as "bums." I was under ten at the time, and didn't think blackface had anything to do with black people - I thought it was from not shaving.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:30 PM

I understood that the custom of blacking faces is associated with disguise, especially in areas to do with mining, furnace workers etc.
BTW,d oes this mean the practice of soldiers darkening their faces will be banned, or will they have to use some acceptable colour? Purple? No, Imperial Rome. Orange? Whoops! Green? I'm sure that could upset conservationists or pagans or some such (no offence to anyone intended, if any taken it sort of proves the point!)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:25 PM

I've been down this road before in this community and have no desire to go again.

But FWIW, I agree with Joe Offer.

Just because something is traditional, doesn't mean it has to continue forever.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:28 PM

Point of clarification, the comments that Joe made that I agree with are:

"I don't think people would dare go blackface in the U.S. nowadays. Since the 1960's, it's been considered socially unacceptable. It was common in the 1950's and earlier."

The last comment in my preceding post is my own.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:37 PM

Does "darkie" mean a person of color? If so, that's enough of a tipoff to me that this is not something that doesn't demean human beings-- both those who "black up" and those who are being mocked.

~S~

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:40 PM

Ditto Joe and Azizi.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:41 PM

'Two or three years ago Bernie Grant MP tried to get it stopped as he considered 'blacking up' was racist.'

The Caribbean Community is saddened by the passing on Sunday, 9 April, (2000) of Mr Bernie Grant, Member of Parliament for Tottenham, North London since 1987. Mr Grant, who died at the age of 56, was born in Guyana, and was one of the first three Black MPs in the House of Commons.

Would you black up and go into The West Indian Sports and Social Club, Moss Side, Manchester? Would you feel comfortable?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Hawker
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:58 PM

This is the same Bernie Grant who tried to get black bin bags banned as they were insulting to black people? where will it end? Am I to be offended by white swing bin liners? Does white sliced bread signify I am as thick as 2 slices? does whitewash mean I am dirty? what about whitebait - is this fish used to catch people like myself? What it means, as a tradition is that it is something from a time when this was acceptible, it is not intended to cause offense, and should be taken in that context. I cannot imagine the coconut dancers being whitened up!!!! What colour will they try to ban next? Flesh coloured plasters are worrying, whose flesh did they match it to? it wasnt mine!!!!! I'm much fairer skinned.
Political correctness is all well and good, but we are gouing to end up saying sugar and everyone knows we mean shit, to me that would be less acceptible and the historical meanings would be well and truly lost.
Lucy

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

I'm not having a go at anything Bernie Grant tried to do or did. All I am saying is that he tried to get black face darkie days and black faced traditions banned. In Cornwall, as in many other places across the country, and the world, there is a tradition of 'guising'. It comes from the word disguise and was when the working people covered their faces with soot or mine dust, or in some places masks, to go out to sing and dance in their communities and raise money. They went in disguise so their employers or masters would not recognise them. It is the same for any black faced morris or molly side. Faces were put into disguise so that they can't be recognised. Other sources say faces were covered to frighten away evil spirits. In Africa and in the Caribbean the people there have the same type of tradition when they cover their faces in white clay or mud so they cannot be recognised. The aboriginies have the same tradition, guising their faces so they won't be recognised. Blacking up or whiting up, it's all for the same reason. Right across the Eastern block countries there is also the same tradition that around Christmas and new year they blacken their faces and go in disguise so they won't be recognised. Hope this clarifies the reasons behind it. Wherever you are in the world you'll find something very much akin to guising.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 05:50 PM

this can't be true?

cats...is anything in the above link true? If so, Jeeze Louise do people still try and justify this?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 05:56 PM

That's a joke, right? What complete and utter bullshit.

Thanks for posting, Milk Monitor.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 05:58 PM

Long live the traditions of towns such as Padstow.

When traditions die so do people's lives become less enriched.

Traditions do die out , but cannot and must not be stamped out.

BTW Where are these police when during the summer months youngsters need their presence to patrol their behaviour? In Newquay of course.


Hey! anyone have any burnt cork?

Dont Mummers have rights too?

Masks?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:02 PM

a href="http://www.truebrits.tv/darkie_trivia.html">and there's more...

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:03 PM

Instructions for "Boscastle Breakdown," with music, here: Boscastle

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:14 PM

breezy,

if you were a person of color, what would you think and feel about this tradition?

It's fifth year of the 21st century and I think that we still have a long way to go all of us before we Black and White and Asians and Native Americans and all of us human beings come together as one.

Do green beings who mean us harm have to come from out of space before we recognize and treat all Human beings with dignity and respect?

I know that 'Catters make jokey jokes about William Shatner. But I wish that he and Spock [maybe especially Spock] and Uhuru were real. And I wish that Scotty would beam them down to share their wisdom with us..

But of course that's was just make believe...and sometimes what happens in real life is more fanciful than those situations that Capt. Kirk and his crew found himself in. But at least in those days it seems that people and [some]other beings got along..

Of course there's always the Klingons...

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:34 PM

Al Jolson wouldn't be a 'hit' today, IMO. The times have changed--and it's about time they did.

Tell this man how much this 'tradition' counts.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:38 PM

This crowd agrees with you, however. Keep the tradition alive.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:03 PM

I agree with everything cats says, but then I read they dress to impersonate American blacks and sing songs with "nigger" in them etc. This negates what Cats says.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

The origins of 'Blacking Up' and guising dates back to the bad old days of the early industrial revolution and the beginnings of Trade unionism , when ordinary working men went out in Blackface to take the mickey out of 'The Gentry' and collect money . It has nothing to do with any form of racism , and any one who treats it as such is totally out of order !

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:32 PM

It is today about racism. Read the post just above yours.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Chris Green
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

If the tradition is about disguise, does it have be black you apply to your face? Surely any colour would do? Not trying to fan the flames or anything, just asking!

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:39 PM

who are they 'taking the mickey' out of with the afro wigs and ni**er songs then? can we stick to padstow please?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:48 PM

Good question GUEST. I echo that.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:51 PM

Cheers Brucie..sorry that was me above (wouldn't ya know!)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:02 PM

Cats, you said "In Africa and in the Caribbean the people there have the same type of tradition when they cover their faces in white clay or mud so they cannot be recognised."

While the use of white ashes or white paint might have been used to disguise a person, it might be well to ask the purpose of that disguise...

As a student of African cultures, I would submit to you that traditionally those people who wore masks did so to symbolize and become like [or become/be possessed by] ancestors, forces of nature, or divine beings.

If you are truly interested in this subject, you might want to visit any number of websites on mask traditions in Africa and elsehere.

One such site is http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~bcr/African_Mask.html

See this quote from that site:

"African masks are dramatic portraits of spirit beings, departed ancestors, and invisible powers of social control. Each mask was made according to a traditional style, and each was worn by a trained performer. The African masks that hang on walls of Western art museums, detached from their full-body costumes, were originally part of whole performance ensembles, consisting of elaborately costumed dancers, vibrant music, and highly stylized dances. These complex ceremonial events expressed important social, religious, and moral values for the whole community. With careful attention to the masks' artistic and symbolic detail, it is possible to perceive these same values within the masks themselves..

Also, you might also want to read up on color symbolism in African cultures and other places in the world.

See this quote:

In the scheme of things, black, red and white tend to rule the arts and crafts of sub-Saharan Africa. They are followed by blue, yellow and orange. These are colors of mineral, animal and vegetable origin and thus easily accessible. Black can be seen everywhere since it is the skin color of most African peoples. Garnered from roots, seeds, charcoal and soot, it is also the color of the fertile earth and thus speaks of completeness and plenty. To achieve the rich black color of a cloth, the fabric is often dyed in fermented mud. Yet black is also associated with death, illness and uncertainty and has remained a powerful part of African shamanism.

    The color red, obtained from seeds, berries, stones and minerals, implies energy, vitality and joy, and the colors yellow, orange, violet and green are often considered a shade of red. White, traditionally meaning purity, also conjures up images of supernatural forces, danger and death and is carefully gleaned from limestone, plant ash and animal waste.

   In the adinka [kinte] cloth of the Ashanti in Ghana the white weave signifies purity and virtue; black indicates deep feelings of melancholy, the devil, death and old age; green means vitality and newness, gray blame and shame. Gold is the color of royalty and shades of yellow are likened to the fat of a luscious foul and the juice of a ripe pineapple All three suggest comfort and warmth.

   But the most meaningful and widely used color south of the Sahara is ochre. For more on African Color Symbolism

***
It may be possible that contemporary Africans use white paint to cover their faces as another form of disguise..borrowing perhaps from European traditions...

For instance, there is a widespread African American church mime tradition that I would perhaps date from the 1980s. White paint is used to cover the faces of these [usually youth female or male, but sometimes adult female troups. The performers also wear white gloves to cover their hands..IMO, this tradition is directly connected with European mime traditions. White paint is used to emphasize facial features and the color white here also symbolizes purity..

I'm far from a fan of this custom of white painted Black mime groups. However, for the record I wanted to mention this performance practice.

Hopefully, this is not seen as too far a thread drift from the subject being discussed...

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 12:30 AM

I could buy the theory that the blacking up was to represent sooty miners, mill workers, seeking anonymity from bosses, etc., were it not for the "nigger " songs and the term "darkie days."

Seamus

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 04:45 AM

I am truly torn on this one. On the one hand, many (most) of the comments from US catters are in fact judging the behaviour out of context: Britain, while far from having an integrated multicultural society, does not have the "rich" history of racial bigotry and persecution that America has. The connotations and context are different.

On the other hand, the Padstonians are reported to be singing songs about "niggers" etc, which again takes the "blacking" custom away from its original purpose (the working classes disguising themselves as "nobs" to take the mickey out of their bosses, and blacking their faces NOT to imitate people of another race, but as camouflage). The custom as it stands perverted today is indeed offensive.

But just before I condemn it, another thought creeps in. Back home (Greece), blacking one's face is used in local carnivals, remnants of pre-Christian, pagan times and customs such as the bacchanalia, to imitate not people of another race, but mythological creatures. This, in a society where until TV arrived most people had not seen a person of African or Caribean origin. A 2500+ year tradition, clearly unrelated to the 20th/21st century hangups. No songs about "niggers" there, no reference to Africa or slavery.

Would that be equally offensive today? Should those carnivals be banned because now we live in a multicultural world with many tourists visiting from other countries where such practices (in those other cultures, i.e. out of context) are damnable?

So, back to Padstow: Surely, what is offensive there is not the original custom, which is innocent of racism, but the way in which it is now enacted, with the curly wigs and "nigger" songs. So why not condemn this departure from the custom, and not the original custom itself?

I want to live and let live, and I am willing to adapt quite a lot in the interests of keeping my neighbour happy. But where does sensitivity end and oppression take over? We need to know where to draw the line between the two, otherwise we're only making a rod for our own backs.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats at Work
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 04:53 AM

Please don't get on at me! It is not personal. It's what is happening. I only posted this thread beacuse I thought that it would be of interest to those who dance in molly or border teams and mummers. The people of Padstow don't sing about n*****s or try to impersonate stereotypes of people from black or other ethnic minorities. It is about guising. If you go to Looe, Cawsand, Kingsand, Polperro , St Ives, Madron and a whole host of other places you will find the same guising tradition. They may not all cover their faces but dress in 'fancy dress' so they are disguised. (I went as a fairy once and someone bent my wand!!). Thanks Azizi for the detail on colour symbolism, I happen to know a fair bit about the tradition, but the point I was making was that putting on a disguise of whatever kind is inherent in cultures around the world. Yes, some masks take on the animal themselves but that is not what I was saying. Some masks are just to cover the face, to disguise. Also darkie comes from the dark days, the mid winter time when we go out to summon up the sun, it is nothing to do with the colour of peoples skin.

The whole point of this is the question.. is this the end of all black faced morris and molly and mummers? If it is, then, by the same argument, is it the end of any tradition where colour is put on the face to disguise in any country?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:46 AM

cats...honest, no one is 'geting on at you.' All we asked was what truth is in the report that was in the link I provided. Never having been to that festival, we can only ask someone (in this case yourself) if what was reported is a true account of what happens, or is the report ficticious?

The origins of guising are well documented, has Padstow incorporated it's own take on things, or did the writer of the report imagine the afro wigs and ni**er songs? As that particular report is part of a book on the subject.....details given in the link, it would be interesting to know.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,John Barden at work
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:56 AM

Where will this leave Rochester Sweeps Festival? The tradition there is Blackface, but it's all about Chimney Sweeps getting black from the soot. I'm sorry, I believe we need tolerance in this world right now, and jumping on peoples customs is intolerance. Why not pick on The British National Party? Now they really are racists and bigots, not these people in Padstow, or in Bacup, or in Rochester.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:05 AM

El Greko, you said

"Back home (Greece), blacking one's face is used in local carnivals, remnants of pre-Christian, pagan times and customs such as the bacchanalia, to imitate not people of another race, but mythological creatures. This, in a society where until TV arrived most people had not seen a person of African or Caribean origin. A 2500+ year tradition, clearly unrelated to the 20th/21st century hangups. No songs about "niggers" there, no reference to Africa or slavery."


I believe you when you say that people in your area may not have ever seen any person of African descent including any dark skinned person from the Caribbean...

Yet for the record-least others misunderstand what you are saying regarding ancient Greece-it should be noted that ancient Greeks had ALOT of contact with Africans...even to the extent of conferring group names from the Greek language on thse people - Ethiopian {Aethiops} and Afer, Indus and Maurus [all ancient equivalents of Aethiops}.

There are numerous Internet websites that provide documented information and not speculation or hyperbole about Africa's contribution to early Greek & Roman cultures-including in the visual arts and in the area of mythology..

I also would recommend reading "Blacks In Antiquity", Frank Snowden, Jr. Here is one excerpt from that book:

"Although blacks appeared in Mediterranean art outside of African as early as Minoan times, for a detailed study of the physical characteristics of certain types of Ethiopians by Greek artist a beginning should be made in the sixth century b.C. Starting with this century we have sufficeient representations of Negroes in enough detail to permit an accurate analysis of racial features, From the sixth century onwards until late in the Empirem for a period covering a span of nearly one thousand years, artists, using the Negro as a model in almost every medium and as a favortie of many, have bequeathed us a vlauable antrhopological gallery." {p. 23; Harvard University Press, 1970}

end of quote.

Finally, isn't it possible that over time there could be many layers of reasons for these widespread blackening up customs? Could the 'guising up' explanation in all its various permutations be a more modern way of explaining customs whose purposes may be hidden in antiquity? Isn't it possible that these 'guising' explanations are newer reasons for customs that may not be socially acceptable to people-Black White or otherwise-who are trying to value multi-culturalism?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:36 AM

Azizi, you asked "Finally, isn't it possible that over time there could be many layers of reasons for these widespread blackening up customs? Could the 'guising up' explanation in all its various permutations be a more modern way of explaining customs whose purposes may be hidden in antiquity? Isn't it possible that these 'guising' explanations are newer reasons for customs that may not be socially acceptable to people-Black White or otherwise-who are trying to value multi-culturalism?.

Hand on heart, I cannot either confirm or dispel your suspicions - at least, not worldwide. But I do know that in Byzantine times for example they used to black the faces of prostitutes using soot from the fireplace and parade them through the town; this in turn led to the "mountza" gesture (open palm thrust in the face of someone, as if you are going to black their face), which is just about the worst gesture one can make in Greece, worse than giving someone the bird even. And in turn this gave rise to the custom of dressing as "mountzouris" (dirty-face) at carnivals.

While there was contact with Africa from the ancient times, there had never been a sufficient number of Africans living there to give rise to racism - and they would have lived in the main towns only, anyway, so most Greeks would not have come into contact. There certainly is no reference to anti-African racism that I am aware of anywhere in the volumes of writings that we have from the 5th century BC onwards. So I contend that the background was not such as to create such customs for the purpose of denigrating anyone of African origin. I know for a fact, that if we suggested to any Greek that "mountzouris" has some sort of connection with racism, they would look at us as if we were crazy; because it simply does not enter their heads.

Not that Greeks are innocent of racism - but of a different sort, pointing more to neighbouring countries such as Turkey, and especially Albania, for more contemporary reasons linked to the high influx of Albanian refugees in the last 20-30 years and the crimewave that followed. But my own 86-year old parents not only love the Nigerian doctor that looks after them, they have become friends with his whole family. And my parents are in no way exceptional in that respect.

I for one, readily accept that the Rochester Sweeps Festival has everything to do with chimney sweeps and faces blacked by soot, and nothing to do with racism - bacause I know the history behind it.

The point I am making is that you do not know Greek society, or for that matter the British society, as much as you may think, and most of the sensitivity on this issue is borne out of experiences in your own society. One should therefore beware of judging one society by the standards of another one.

Otherwise, to repeat my earlier statement, where does normal sensitivity towards others stop and oppression begin?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:36 AM

I'll tolerate anything until it annoys me .

So therefore toleration is a matter of toleration.

I think El G is saying that before TV most Greek inhabitants had not seen black people, thats not to say that they were unknown.Certainly in rural areas I would think.

It was like that in Padstow until the 1970s. Most inhabitants never saw or came into contact with Black people.

In some parts of the british isles this is still the case today.

I guess they dont see many white faces in many parts of the world.

Or Euros in parts of Mongolia, yet alone Africans.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 08:43 AM

El Greko,
It is true that I have no direct knowledge of any culture but that of some parts of the USA.

Yet,isn't the Internet and, in particular international discussion sites like this one wonderfully rich way of learning about other cultures-from people who have lived and are living those cultures?

You said:
"While there was contact with Africa [in Greece] from the ancient times, there had never been a sufficient number of Africans living there to give rise to racism."

One way I could interprete this sentence-though I don't know that you meant it this way-is that a 'sufficient' or large number of Africans can or will [usually?? ; always??] give rise to racism or negative color valuations.

Instead, I would rather praise the ancient Greeks for not having any color prejudice because they recognized that such feelings were silly or ignorant and/or because they recognized the Humanity and the merits of Africans who they had met or heard of, and/or because of their recognition of the rich heritage that that Greek culture had received from African culture.

By African culture I specifically am referring to Egypt...After all "Egypt" IS in Africa, and many Egyptians in those ancient days were not as light brown skinned or fair skinned as they are now-and at one time Egypt was ruled by Sudanese-the name 'Sudan' meaning
'the land of the blacks'..

I would add the names of two other books on ancient Greece and Africa to the book that I suggested in my earlier post:

Frank M. Snowden, Jr "Before Color Prejudice" Harvard University Press, 1983

and

Ivan Van Sertima "African Presence In Early Europe" Transaction Pubishers 1988

For example of the African influence on early Greek culture, as a result of the 18th century & onward's white-washing of history, few people know about or accept etymological and other evidence of the Egyptian influence on the names and attributes of Greek gods and goddess.

See this excerpt from the Van Sertima book that I listed above:

"In the case of divine names [for Greek gods] Herodotos specifically stated "The names of nearly all the gods came to Greece from Egypt. {"Histories, II:49}. This statement was never challenged in Antiquity. It must further be emphasized that the only Greek divine names with plausible Indo-European names are Hestia and Zeus and even the later name has some phonetic problems.

In his book II Herodotos gives detals of many cultic parallels between the Greek and Egyptian religious systems and explicity reasons that as they [the religous systems]were far older in Egyp,
that must be their place of origin {II-49}. It is interesting to note that at the University of Oxford all books on Herodotos are required reading except for Book II. The situation is not so clear cut at Cambridge but there too Book II is omitted with some others".

end of quote..

I write these posts not for argument but for the sake of discussion..In doing so I readily acknowledge that I have merely read quite a number of books on the subject.

And -as I said before- I admit that have no direct knowledge of any cultures other than specific USA/American cultures.

However,I believe that arm chair students can contribute something worth while to discussions such as these.

Don't you agree?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 10:13 AM

Read Shirley Jackson's short story entitled "The Lottery". It too deals with tradition.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 10:14 AM

Link to "The Lottery".

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:02 AM

Many Years ago, when I was a musician for "Paddington Pandemonic Express" Urban Molly dancers, we did a lunchtime stand at Covent Garden (London) on the day of the FA Cup final (UK Football).
The teams concerned that year were Liverpool (Red) and Everton (Blue).

We all had Blue faces....Guess which hostel we adjourned to for luchtime refreshment. Yes, you guessed it....One full of Liverpool supporters.

The sound of pins dropping was astonishing....To Quote...We got our coats!!

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: CharlieA
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:36 AM

Basically the link provided is a pull your leg kind of link - have a read of some of the other traditions it mentions. Most of it is made up.

I lived about 2 miles from Padstow for many (18) years and i wouldn't see many of them calling themselves Padstownian!

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:46 AM

The basic assumption here seems to be that it must be racism because white people are involved. Unfortunately racism is fairly common amongst all people regardless of their physical characteristics.
There is no such thing as the black "race" or the white "race" or the whatever superficial distinguishing features you want to choose "race".
To illustrate the point, all the native people of sub-Saharan Africa have the black skin adaptation, yet there is more genetic diversity in these people than the rest of humanity put together. Nothing surprising here there have been modern people in Africa longer than anywhere else.

PP

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:47 AM

book review

Charlie the link I provided is actually an excerpt from a published book by JR DAESCHNER. He tries to analyse the origins of traditional events celebrated in UK.

He says it is his firsthand account of Padstow.

It looks like a made up site....but the above link is the Guardian's review of the book, and it is for sale at Amazon, amongst other places. I would still be interested if someone who has also attended that particular festival could refute his experiences?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:52 AM

Friday Chris Flegg at the Windward Folk Club at the Legion in St Albans

sunday night the Spotlight club George papavgeris   same venue

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 12:05 PM

You praise my ancestors too much, Azizi. Would that they were as enlightened as to resist racism; but they were not, sad to say. They "had it in" for the Persians big time, for a start. And when it came to marrying among citizens of different (Greek) city-states, it was as hard to accept as interracial marriages were 50 years ago in Europe. Neither were they above using slaves - all the major building work, Parthenon included, were built with slave labour. It's just that those slaves would have been mostly prisoners taken after some war and therefore mainly white or Middle Eastern, Etruscans, Phoenicians, Persians etc, or captured citizens of other Greek city-states. By the time Greeks fought in any numbers in Egypt or elsewhere in Africa, the practice of slave-taking had been discontinued (by my hero, Alexander) and then the Greeks were taken over by the Romans anyway.

The reason I mentioned the small numbers of Africans in Greece in ancient times (and really I am referring to the period 600BC-300AD or thereabouts) with respect to racism is this: Any prejudice has to have its object available in sufficient quantity, otherwise it does not manifest itself easily. There cannot be racist behaviours if there is nobody to be racist against. So it is not that the Greeks might not have become racist against Africans - they simply did not have the opportunity.

As for the influences from Egypt, and before that from India, they are undeniable, but moot in this context, because they do not point towards contact in sufficient numbers, just a natural result for a nation that depended on trading so much.

Brucie, good story. Such traditions deserve to die, no doubt - where individuals get hurt there can be no excuse. My question remains though: Where the slight is perceived but not intended, should a tradition be terminated? Where do we draw the line? What guideline should we follow?

I don't have the answer. And sure as hell, I don't want racism, and I believe nobody else on Mudcat wants it eiather, irrespective of political leanings. But unless we are very careful in drawing the line between sensitivity and oppression, we are doing nobody any good.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 12:14 PM

Sorry Azizi, did not answer your last question about armchair student being valuable contributors to a discussion - of course yes! I already learned much on Mudcat about my own religion from some contributors, and no doubt I can learn a thing or two about my ancestors from you too. And I welcome it. :-)

SO far, this is an excellent thread, addressing a real and relevant issue. (other than Breezy's advertising my gig on Sunday, that is!)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 12:35 PM

Does the term "darkie" have another meaning in Britain?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 12:46 PM

Brucie in the context of the festival I do not know what it is meant to mean. Or more importantly what it has become to mean.

However if you asked 1000 UK'ers what the word darkie means to them, you would be hard pushed to find anyone that didn't say it was an adjective used to describe anyone of dark skin colour. It was very popular amongst folk who probably thought it not as harsh as ni**er.

Don't know if a sit com called 'Til death us do part' crossed the pond, but it was immortalised by the character Alf Garnett.

It's use has died out in the main, although you do still very occasionally hear it, although I have only ever heard it from the older generation.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:29 PM

Guest, you bring up a good point. Here we have a word that was "hijacked" by racists in the 50's and 60's; the same word in the context of the Padstow custom refers not to colour of skin but to the "dark times", or so we are told (it makes sense, as the custom and its name predate the 50's by a few centuries). What to do? Throw out the custom because some bigots hijacked its name?

Similarly, in recent years the English flag has been hijacked by other bigots - the fascists and BNP sympathisers - to the point that ordinary English folks are wary of displaying their flag in case their feelings are misunderstood. Again - what to do?

My personal stance on both these cases is to defend the tradition and attack the offensive divergence from it. In other words, not to flush the baby along with the bathwater down the drain.

Any other reaction finds me asking "according to which guidelines?".

Take Shakespeare's The Merchant Of Venice. No two ways about it, Shylock is not shown in the best of lights in that otherwise wonderful play; this reflects the ethos of the times, and - perhaps - some bigotry too. But we have not banned the play as racist.

So, why ban the Padstow custom (in its original state, cleaned up from any unsavoury latter-day additions such as songs about "niggers"), yet keep the play? What guideline do we use for this?

Or - do we ban both regardless? I contend that this is the road to Big Brother; because if we do not draw some sensible line somewhere, there is nothing to stop us from

- banning Christianity because is was Christians that perpetrated the crimes in the recent Iraq war
- banning the singing of national anthems because the Extreme Right uses them
- banning the story of Red Riding Hood because it is inhumane towards animals (what with the disembowelling etc)
- banning nativity plays at school because they might offend members of other religions (ah, sorry, this has already happened - in Autralia, that bastion of Political Correctness)

I am not making light of the issue, using the examples above. Just giving a taste of what can happen when anyone has unlimited power - even the Political Correctness Brigade. We need some criterion/guideline, otherwise "that way lies madness".

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:44 PM

My personal stance on both these cases is to defend the tradition and attack the offensive divergence from it.

That sounds ideal el greko. But the first step towards achieving that would need those who want these traditions upheld, to admit there may be a divergence. And then examine their reasons for not wanting it challenged.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:03 PM

Looking into the history, it seems that blackface minstrelsy was grafted onto guising, or mummery, in mid-19th c. or later, to create a regional variation. The word darky (darkey, darkie) (OED) may mean a type of lantern, night, or a Negro or blacky- the last not found in print until mid-19th c. As milk monitor notes, its use is dying out.
Expunging the minstrel addition should not destroy guising or charitable efforts associated with it.