Padstow Darkie Days

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 12:47 AM

I was in England in 1986, and I liked the Cornish people best of all! They were the nicest, and the most fun of all the people I met there. I didn't hear any racist comments in Cornwall. One or two at a very elegant dinner in Shrivenham. But not Cornwall.
With regards to Chimney Sweeps, the lady who taught German at my high school was a Czech. She said, in her youth, kids in Prague would go off in search of a sweep on the day of a big test, and try to get two fingers covered with soot from the sweep for good luck.
Now, the kids who put on blackface at O.U. for Halloween were, deliberately trying to offend African American students, which was stupid and mean.
The guy who dressed as a pregnant nun, and the "flasher" with the loofah sponge were trying to offend everybody, which is normal behavior for undergraduates.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Alexander
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM

Final message on this thread. Earlier I promised to write to the Padstow Town Council and the Padstow Echo to state that they should consider euthanizing the Darkie Days celebration. Since then I shared my message with my two siblings in Padstow and they both have begged me not to post that message. They state that they're the ones who will have to live with the fallout, while I'm safe and secure six thousand miles away in Washington State, USA. After giving their request some considerable thought I have decided to let the cards fall where they will without outside intervention, even if it does come from a fellow Padstonian.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: mandoleer
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 06:08 PM

Never heard of the Darkie Days, but the idea of it reminded me of two things. At Scarborough Weekend once, we were intrigued to find that when one member of a Border Morris side had his blacked-up face washed, he was black underneath. And the other thing - has anyone raised any objection to the Britannia Coconut Dancers from Bacup yet?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: BB
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 04:56 PM

I never knew the origin of the name 'Padstow' - Petrockstow's in Deb'n!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 10:25 AM

Welcome to Mudcat, Alexander!

Azizi-sometime called Ms Azizi; sometimes called sista Azizi; sometimes called sister Azizi; never called Saint Azizi! **BG**

I'll 'see' you around the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Alexander
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 06:30 AM

Azizi? I'm glad you liked my pun. I just became a member and so GuestLodenek is now Alexander. I tried Alex but somebody is already using that. This thread appears to have run out, but I'll try to start one about the Padstow Obby Oss, hope to see you there.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 08:06 PM

Lodenek, I liked the pun on my name.

However, I must confess that I'm no saint.

Actually, the name "Azizi" [ah-ZEE-zee] is the KiSwahili form of the Arabic female name "Aziza" which is a form of the male name "Aziz".

The name "Azizi" means [one who is] rare & precious.

I strive to live up to my name.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,Lodenek
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:35 PM

Forgot to identify myself again. Alexander

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

or Sister in this case??

She is still with us after all.

The folks I spoke to in Padstow last week end were very mindful that they do not upset anyone

Then the cornish man wouldnt be as considerate seeing as the cost of houses has been pushed beyond the reach of the locals and the Spanish are poaching in the waters.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

That's right, it was a play on words. Turning Azizi into St. Francis of Assisi. I'm going to check into membership here. Perhaps that would reveal who I am? Lodenek by the way is the original Cornish (Kernewek)name for Padstow. That name was used prior to the arrival of St. Petroc when the name changed to Petrockstow and later corrupted by common useage to Padstow. Stow is the Cornish word for Place, hence the place of Petroc. I intend to write to the Padstow Echo, and include a similar letter to the one I wrote in this Forum. Frankly, this will not make me any friends in Padstow. In fact, it will probably alienate me from many friends and also from my two siblings. That's unfortunate, but I have to stand up and be counted on the subject of Darkie Days. The citizens of Padstow really need to think carefully about this politically incorrect celebration, and do the right thing, euthanize it. Gorguytheugh...Cornish for Take Care. Alexander

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:28 PM

I think its just a pun on Azizi's name - St Francis of Azizi?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:28 PM

It was a play on words: St Francis of Assisi. I think so, anyway.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:24 PM

Lodenek, it is not necessary to identify yourself. Here, relationships of trust grow between site members, because there are private-messaging options to use when things need to be clarified privately. For instance, I wondered what you meant about "St. Francis." But it is something I would prefer to discuss privately, not in the thread.

In any event, welcome to Mudcat!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,Lodenek
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 12:33 PM

The Shambles wrote: And I am a Dutchman. Does this suggest doubt that I'm a Padstonian? If so, I would be happy to identify myself.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,Lodenek
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 11:00 AM

Forgot to identify myself. It's nice to find that the blessed Saints are watching over Padstow's Darkie Days.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 10:54 AM

You're welcome St. Francis.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 08:32 AM

GUEST,Lodenek,

Thank you.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 04:21 AM

And I am a Dutchman.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,Lodenek
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 03:15 AM

I'm a Padstonian who grew up with the Darkie Day custom. I understand that the hearts and minds of the people of Padstow aren't racist. However, this celebration is definitely politically incorrect. Just because the Crown Prosecution Service has determined that Darkie Days celebrants aren't breaking the law, doesn't mean that these celebrations are acceptable today. It is my earnest hope that the people of Padstow will recognise this and voluntarily discontinue this tradition, and replace it with another one. I suggest that they sing and dance in the streets of Padstow to celebrate our diversity and call that celebration D Day (Diversity Day). How would the people of Padstow react to people mocking their ancient tradition of May Day, when the Padstow Obby Oss (Hobby Horse) lives again? How would they feel about the ancient culture of their ancestors being mocked? How would they feel about their ancient Cornish (Kernewek) language, music, dance and Celtic customs being ridiculed? I know that they would find this to be extremely offensive. That's exactly the same way black people react to the Padstow Darkie Days celebration.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,GUEST - Terry Redmond
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 05:43 AM

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:36 AM

still in denial?

I'm not in denial, I'm puzzled - what is your point?

The article you refer to is dated 10th March and says that after consultation with the organiser and some minor changes had been agreed-presumably to avoid accusations in future-there was no case to answer.

The original investigation report was published on the 25th Feb. So if the changes had already been made there would have been no point in filming, if they hadn't been made then a crime had been committed.

A prosecution would have had to have followed.

So I ask again- are you really saying that the changes were contrived between organisers and authorities before the Police videos were made, that despite these changes nobody thought to simply make a sworn declaration "This is NOT what normally happens" which would have forced the CPS to take the matter to court?

This was first investigated SEVEN years ago with the same result. A Press Complaints enquiry took place on the reporting. The CPS took evidence from MP's, the CRE and the Police- no evidence of racist content.

In SEVEN years, not one of the complaints of RACISM has had the intelligence or the moral courage to video the event or put their name to a complaint.
IF IT'S RACIST - IT SHOULD STOP. And I promise that I'll take no further part in the guising activities for the museums, churches and civic processions that I have been participating in for the last five years.

These traditions go back at least a couple of hundred years.
Hasn't ANY one of the complainants got the guts to stand up to present the case and substantiate this 'evidence' without a mask of anonymity?

Terry

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 04:45 AM

Bearing in mind CPS judgement the Asst.Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall would be better occupied in deploying his force against criminals and anti-social behaviour rather than those innocent participants and spectators on Darkie Days. It sounds as if he is saying he`ll have his way regardless.
Let sanity reign.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 09:15 PM

"according to those taking part" - more vague gossip and rumours. Who are the "those taking part" cited, where does the information come from, etc.

................

Incidentally, here's a picture (from my flickr photostream, and our family album) of a group of their neighbours in London celebrating the end of the Great War outside their decorated home - the reason I put it in here is because of the young man in Blackface Minstrel with the banjo. Except he looks more like a Pierrot. It's a strange picture in several ways - there's a melancholy about it. Appropriate enough.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 01:24 PM

I've just got back home after 4 days in the frozen north (Scarborough) at the Womens TUC Conference. It was good to hear the news that there is no case to answer and that CPS have dismissed it. What is worrying is that the Asst Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall made a written statement to the Western Morning News in which he indicated that he disagreed with it and therefore would be policing it to make sure there is no rowdy behaviour. As a public servant I would have thought that he could have said that as an individual but not as a police officer, especially as there has been a CPS ruling.
As for what has been cleaned up... well, the minstrel songs and afro wigs disappeared years ago, so it wasn't that, so all that I can see is that the Merrymakers weren't so rowdy this year. The video wasn't cleaned up either, it had to go just as it stood so... There again the CRE found it to be not racist when Bernie Grant complained. The Merrymakers did exactly the same as they do every year.
CPS have said that 'the blacking of faces' is not racist so all those morris and molly sides, as well as Rochester Sweeps, can breathe again. So, folks. lets celebrate. Go and support the Britannia Men when they are out at Easter, in fact, let's all celebrate all out British Folk Traditions for what they are. Our Heritage.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:46 AM

Never heard of "Darkie Days." Sounds like a considerably different tradition from the US Minstrel shows.

By coincidence, I recently viewed an early Hitchcock Movie, "Young And Innocent" from 1937 which has as a plot device one of its characters performing in blackface in a veddy British minstrel jazz combo (good music, too). Took me back because I'd never imagined such a thing. By additional coincidence, at this very moment on NPR, a black DJ is explaining how he has taken the historic and historically racist 1915 American film, "Birth Of A Nation" and re-mixed it with modern audio and video effects to make it into a self-commentary: "Re-Birth of A Nation". It's normally done as a live mix with the DJ there.

The English have a very different perspective from Americans: England outlawed slavery far earlier than the US, and used its navy to restrict or eliminate the slave trade where feasible. And of course, England never had a large population of slaves itself. The word 'nigger' cropped up in Gilbert and Sullivan quite 'innocently' (The Mikado) and was replaced with 'vigor' possibly within G & S's lifetimes, and probably to satisfy the American market because the word never packed the pungency in Britain that it did over here. I believe they mainly considered it a reference to color (as opposed to race).

It is possible to see Darkie Days as a homegrown folk tradition that can be tolerated by minorities who have an understanding of its origins and intents. But it may also be perceived as an inherently flawed activity in the light of current population.

In Anchorage about fifteen years ago, one of the better and more enlightened high schools had a series of student rendered paintings on the sides of its hallways. One of the paintings depicted a figure hanging by a noose from a tree, below which the word "Prejudice" was printed. The figure was faceless and, as I recall, purple. The mother of one of the students, who was black, maintained it was a racist illustration and wanted it removed. It became a "letters to the editor" issue and went on for a few weeks. Most people thought it was a good "anti-racist" message and tastefully displayed. This one woman was adamant. In the end, the image was removed.

Toleration doesn't always mean the same thing at the same time.

The discussion of the issue is a good thing. It is more important than whatever the conclusion turns out to be.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:40 AM

Great idea indeed, Bill. Don't stay a guest, btw, come and join the madhouse...;-)

I dunno how it works there in the US but I would love to find out. The issue I have always had here in the UK whenever I have tried to get other groups involved is A) Finding them and B) affording them! Ours isn't a tradition - just a small music festival but I do look for diversity where I can. We can get a Morris team for expenses usualy. When we asked for a Bhangra dance troup they were asking hundreds of pounds! To a little festival like ours it does make it difficult. I suspect the same is true of the little regional traditional festivals like Padstow and Bacup.

There was only one occasion when we managed to get a bit of variance. We got extra funding from the arts council and managed to book a Ghanaan story teller and a Ukrainian dance troup. If the 'powers that be' could do something about creating ethnic diversity in this way rather than just criticising we may be well on the way to racial harmony:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:36 AM

still in denial?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,Guest - Terry Redmond
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:30 AM

Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:06 AM

"The organisers were informed of the filming and changes took place to songs and costumes beforehand, according to those taking part. So, well worth the police intervention"

Yeah, right. The police tip the organisers off so no racist charges can stick - then film the now cleaned up event?
You have evidence for this?

Darky day evidence?

Which one is 'cleaned up'?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:06 AM

The organisers were informed of the filming and changes took place to songs and costumes beforehand, according to those taking part. So, well worth the police intervention.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Flash Company
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 10:16 AM

Apparently the CPS decided yesterday that nothing of a Racist nature had taken place on the videos produced by the Devon & Cornwall police department at Padstow. Case dismissed.

FC

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 01:44 AM

Cheers
Bill

It is the UK

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM

Here's the website of the Bathampton Morris Men, with their Bagman, Idris Roker, who was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From:
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:56 PM

Villan,

I'm afraid I've no idea where your neck of the woods is. I'm in the US, myself, so if you are in the UK, my contacts wouldn't do you much good - not that I have any for Jonkannu troupes. A couple of years ago I met a member of a troupe which had disbanded, and we had a fascinating discussion about identical features of Jonkannu and Morris/mumming: short trousers, white shirts, baldricks, bells at the knees, Christmas-play, and cadging. (Joncannu is a Christmas/Boxing Day tradition, by the way - I doubt you'd find it in June). The play characters are different - apparently based on African cultural characters/mythology - but the idea is the same: "entertain" the upper-class at Christmas-time to get some cash (to go away).

From what I've read on this, Jonkannu (there are various other spellings, including "John Canoe") has eveloved in some places such as the Bahamas into a carnival parade spectacle with elaborate costumes, and it has lost the mummers play aspect (much like the Mummers Parade in Philadelphia, PA, USA).

I suggest you contact the folks at that site I mentioned in my last post if you are looking for Carribean-African entertainment contacts in the UK.

Good luck!

--Bill

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:33 PM

Hey Bill I like your idea. It sounds really great. Inclusion. I am all for that. Got something coming up in our neck of the woods for June (It's a charity event) and it would be brilliant if anybody of African descent could attend and bring some authentic cultural entertainment. It would be particularly interesting if they could find a Jonkannu troupe (a Carribean-African blend of mumming and African traditions. PM me.


Barbara, I am really glad that it seems that there isn't a case.

Lets get back to it. :-)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: BB
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:22 PM

Sorry about that!

It was on our local news tonight that it has been decided that 'no offence was committed'. Suggestions have been made about changes which should ensure that there are no problems in the future. What those suggestions might be was not forthcoming in the very brief report.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: BB
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From:
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:20 PM

Hi, i've been following this issue on the Morris Dance Discussion List, which has is similar to this one. I'm cross-posting this:

I recommend reading the discussion of this subject at http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum32/9073.html amongst (apparently) Carribean-African people living in England.

You may be surprised.

The reaction ranges from outrage ("I couldnt believe that this actually happens... And that the locals see nothing wrong with it. The mind boggles"), to dismay that the CRE is wasting its time ("I think this is a classic case of The CRE having no serious role or not wanting to take on serious work.")

I particularly like the positive suggestion (the only one I've seen on this issue) that "if they had any sense they would  have advertised in the VOICE subsidised coach parties for West Indians to liven up the proceedings.  Complete with stalls selling spicy JAMAICAN PATTIES"

It would be a nice gesture of good-intentions and I'm sure all parties would find it enriching if indeed the sponsors of Darkie Days invited some people of African descent to attend and bring some authentic cultural entertainment. It would be particularly interesting if they could find a Jonkannu troupe (a Carribean-African blend of mumming and African tradtions).

--Bill

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:59 PM

It seems to me that the Padstow event has been a victim, not of cultural differences or racial sensitivity, but rather of the current guidelines, which compel police to treat as racial any occurrence which is perceived as racial by persons who feel offended by it.

This, coupled with the inflammatory language of the True Brits (definitely not a joke, not the least bit funny) article, has blown a bit of harmless fun out of all proportion. The only pictorial evidence in the article is one photo, which could be any black face morris side in the world, in which one person is playing melodion.
No sign of any Uncle Tom, ar similar. Surely the reporter could have produced pictures of any offensively dressed protagonists, had there been any such.

The police presence seems to have been the trigger for this interest, and as I said, they have no latitude under present legislation. It will be interesting to see their response to what actually occurred, rather than going off at half cock, and expanding a small molehill into a rather large mountain.

I would campaign tirelessly for the instant abolition of any tradition, however old, that was genuinely racist, but I want more than one reporter with an axe to grind, and an anonymous complainant to the police, before I accept that the Padstow event falls into that category.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:12 PM

This site has some information on the 'Blackface' legacy in the USA.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1919122

If you do a search - you will also get a lot of sites on the Blackface Sheep.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 03:08 PM

That being said, I acknowledge that I am very prone to be sceptical of assertions that 'darkie' refers to the dark days, or the only reason why black paint was used was as a disguise so that a worker's boss would not recognize him.. These seem to me to be more like contemporary, politically correct reasons for ancient customs whose original purposes may not ever be totally known-or whose members want to defray accusations [warranted or unwarranted of their insensitivity...

Yes you are sceptical - but this rather assumes that there was some form of insensitivity in the first place. I am not so sure that there is - especially when we are talking about children 'blacking-up' as a sweep! If you do something in and as part of your own culture - innocent of any intentional mockery to any other culture. Should not that innocent intent (or lack of intent to offend) first be taken by somone in a different culture at face value? If not - why not? Perhaps not being prepared to do this - is the more insensitive approach?

Should any further historical explanation given - be accepted without any sceptism unless or until some evidence for this sceptism is found or provided? It would seem clear that in your culture 'blacking-up' and the playing of banjos will automatically suggest to you only one thing. In our culture (and that includes all the British black people) - it does not mean the same thing. You seem to ignore that the practice in our culture seems to pre-date the practice in your US culture. You only seem to be prepared to tolerate our culture as long as it does not incorporate any modern aspects (especially those not to your persoanl taste, arising from your culture). When it comes to customs and traditions - I don't think that you can't really pick and choose like this or impose upon another culture - what you consider to be politically correct.   

For it should be no surprise - for what it is worth - that I am equally sceptical of judgemental insensitivity based on (an admitted) lack of knowledge - that appears to be set on set on looking for and seems determined to find offence - where there is (or may be) none and imposing a view based on this. I do not see that this sceptical approach is helpful to anyone.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:53 AM

Perhaps these traditions should not be tailored to meet the morality of visitors but honestly reflect those of the participants?

These traditions, in some places already seem to have been tailored, in a way that very much reflects the morality of the participants.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:15 AM

I think we have the "razors in the air" song posted around here somewhere, too-- it's a fun tune, with more verses. Is it a lady singing to a visiting guiser? Why would there be a fight then?

And.... might this be where the term "geezer" comes from?

~S~

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:08 AM

This was posted by Terry Redmond on uk.music.folk

http://www.an-daras.com/music/m_tuneindex_p_begonewindow.htm

The following from the above site.

Begone From The Window / Gwra Mos Dyworth An Fenester Words English, Cornish, French REFERENCES
Old Cornwall Society Magazine April 1927 p 14 - 15

From singing of Jas Thomas NOTES

" This curious old Chorus is evidently the original of the darkey (*Darky)chorus:-

Go away from the window my lover my dove

Go away from the window! Don't you hear?

Come again some other night

For theres going to be a fight

And the razors will be flying in the air


This however misses the meaning of the song which is kept in an old French one sung in Burgundy:-

Qui frappe,qui frappe

Mon mari est ici

Il n`est pas a la campagne

Comme il l`avait promis-

Parle (voix d`homme)

Quest-ce que tu dis donc la ma femme

Je berce le petit mimi, je berce le petit"

(OCS April 1927) The term Darky or Darkie refers to people who black up their faces in disguise as part of Geese (pronounced geez) or guise dancing and is a tradition still extant in Padstow in 2003.

There has been recent and erroneous linking with the "Black and White minstrels" and some unfounded concerns about racist overtones. The origins of darkie day in fact go back a long way through generations of people disguising themselves so that they could get up to greater mischief back to a point in time where they may have had some significance in pagan ritual.

Whatever the background it has nothing to do with skin colour or the tradition would not have survived the vehement anti slave trade movement in Cornwall. (Merv Davey)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM

As a Londoner myself - and although I cannot number a sweep as one of my many professions - many Londoners could have taken deep offence at an American (Dick Van Dyke) playing a sweep in Mary Poppins. His jolly 'cockenee' accent was head and shoulders above the many other terrible movie accents and reinforced a questionable racial stereotype.

Londoners could make a big fuss and say that the portrayal of cockney sweeps by American actors should be ditched - but this was taken as a joke.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:55 AM

Sooty and Sweep :-)

http://members.lycos.co.uk/SootyandSweep/

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:40 AM

I still think the modern day additions to these traditions [afro wig, minstrel songs] should be ditched..

You are entitled to your opinion and many may agree - (if or where these are a reality of a particular event - and there must sill be some doubt if these are) - but there are many other 'modern day additions' to a constantly evolving traditon - should these be ditched also?

In the good old days of the British Empire - we just accepted the whole package and did not impose our views and morality upon the customs, religions and traditions of the countries that we showed a better example to - when ruling over them. *Smiles*

Attempts to impose a different morality and religion upon a invaded culture have met with mixed success a good example is in Central and South America. The original motives for high-days and holiday celebrations tend to surface inside the imposed religions. And over time the indigenous population tend to influence the imposed celebrations until they resemble little - the original ones still taking place in the home countries.

I also think that people around the world [and not just Guisers]need to do a MUCH better job of researching their traditions and teaching the ancient reasons for these traditions.

I have fund that visiting Americans or usually very interested in the extent of UK and European traditions. Perhaps these traditions should not be tailored to meet the morality of visitors but honestly reflect those of the participants? And perhaps the participants should be permitted to get on with the celebrations and the research left to researchers and the teaching to the teachers?

The Padstow shopkeeping lady quoted - said she would not have anything to do with Darkie Days if she thought it had anything to do with racism. Perhaps those of outside should leave the alleged offences to the participants to sort out?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 01:02 AM

One up for the armchair historians - thanks for the info Azizi.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 11:53 PM

Here's a bit of information that seems to explain why kissing a chimney sweep was considered lucky.

"A chimney sweep's lucky as lucky can be..."
Many people will be able to sing along with that song from the Walt Disney version of Mary P. Travers' "Mary Poppins," but not as many know that In Germany, Austria, Hungary, and contiguous regions, the chimney sweep is considered a particularly auspicious omen of good luck if you meet with him on New Year's Day.

The postcard shown here is inscribed in Hungarian "Boldog Ujevet" (which, according to reader Marcell Revisnyei, means "Happy New Year"). It was postally used on January 1st, 1938. It is typical of Central and Eastern European New Year's postcards in which a chimney sweep -- often a blond child -- is shown frolicking in the snow, tossing out lucky talismans by the basketful.

The imagery on this card is unusual to American eyes because the slipshod young chimney sweep is not only sprinkling the ground with four-leaf clovers, he is equally generous in his distribution of toxic red and white Amanita muscaria mushrooms. This is not as strange as it seems, however, for while the four-leaf clover is considered lucky throughout Europe and North America, the Amanita muscaria or "gluckpilz" ("lucky mushroom" in German) is deemed fortuitous in Central and Eastern Europe, where there are remnants of respect for its ancient use as a shamanic hallucinogen.

When i asked my mother Lilo Glozer, who was born in Germany, about the chimney sweep as a bringer of New Year's luck, she replied:

New Year's was not celebrated in Germany until the l7th century, according to an old book I have on German folklore, so originally, this took place on Christmas or Saint Nicholas' Day, but anyway, gifts were given on New Year's Day to people who delivered bread or did household chores that were not performed by live-in servants. In exchange, these purveyors of services often handed out little cards with a blessing or good wishes.

Meeting a chimney sweep -- called a Schornsteinfeger or Schlotfeger --at New Year's meant good luck for the year, especially if he would give you his card. However, by the time my sister and I were children, in the 1910s and 1920s, chimney sweeps were sufficiently rare that meeting one at any time of the year was considered lucky.

Chimney sweeps can also be found in the form of silver bracelet charms, small figurines, Good Luck Semi-Sweet Chocolate labels like the one shown here (which also depicts a lucky horseshoe), and even edible mid-winter gifts in which the chimney sweep's body is made of dried prunes.

Other European postcards in my collection show chimney sweeps giving people money bags, riding in toboggans with lucky pigs, and strewing about prodigious amounts of four-leaf clovers and Amanita muscaria mushrooms.

Perhaps i am fingerpainting here, but i see in this sooty New year's mushroom-bringer the folkloric remains of a shamanic Winter Solstice tradition now long lost to history. "

This article is accompanied by a photo here Luck & Chimney Sweeps

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This is an example of how historical information found on the Internet can be used to help explain present day customs..

The photo that accompanies this article is of a white faced blond haired boy. It's interesting to note that in this article the chimney sweep was not considered lucky because of a 'sooty face' but because of the good luck charms that he distributed.

Certainly one article is not good research. But if the tradition of the chimney sweep emphasized the distribution of good luck charms more than the 'skin color' of the sweep, how did the color become more dominant as my readings thus far of the modern day customs suggests? Are there other articles that might support a belief that 'black' color itself was good luck? This would be counter to the tradition in the United States, at least, that [for instance] seeing a black cat is bad luck...But am I correct that in financial terms, 'being in the black' is good? And Europe does have Chritian traditions of Black Madonnas..[which may or may not have anything to do with this guising tradition]

In summary, as a result of reading this one article on chimney sweeps, I have a better understanding of the reasons behind the traditional custom of blackening up. The chimney sweep explanation sounds more believable to me than the disguise explanation [which as I understand it from this and other Mudcat threads is that lower class people who were going door to door begging at a particular time [New Years?]used cork to blacken their faces as a means of disguising themselves from their upper class masters. However, it seems possible to me that the black face disguise explanation/customs were grafted onto the older chimney sweep good luck traditions..

That being said, given MY history, I still have a negative gut reaction when I read about White folks with cork blackened faces froliking around the streets [especially white folks with cork blackened faces who are wearing afro wigs and singing minstrel songs].

I still think the modern day additions to these traditions [afro wig, minstrel songs] should be ditched..

I also think that people around the world [and not just Guisers]need to do a MUCH better job of researching their traditions and teaching the ancient reasons for these traditions.


Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 06:32 PM

I'm glad to hear it. But "all" is a big word.

It is perhaps as big a word as "hope".

I'm not convinced that all or even most people who guise care about the implications of some of the 'modern' additions to their ancient traditions.

If I were to unintentionally offend someone by being 'blacked-up' as chimmney sweep or/and by playing the (modern) banjo for a rapper side - I would not be happy at causing this offence - but I would think that possibly not all the lack of understanding in this case - would be due to me.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:59 PM

Thanks Spot, I appreciate your comment.

But..okay..same as everyone else, if I have anything else that I feel compelled to say,I'll say it..

Well, actually I'll write it...

;o))


Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:54 PM

Don't leave Azizi. You have brought clear and reasoned argument to what is not clear and often unreasonable. I don't always agree but I have listened and learned.

Spot