Padstow Darkie Days

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM

"A judgmental approach to different races and cultures from a position of ignorance is what I hope we are all trying to get away from."

Oh, is that so?"

I'm glad to hear it. But "all" is a big word.

I'm not convinced that all or even most people who guise care about the implications of some of the 'modern' additions to their ancient traditions.

And with that statement, I bid everyone on this thread so long.

And will say that I have appeciated the level of the discussion and have learned a lot also.

Peace,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

I'm not EVEN going to go there..

Very wise...........*smiles*

But you did see the irony in that remark. A judgmental approach to different races and cultures from a position of ignorance is what I hope we are all trying to get away from.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM

Shambles, I like that witty comment
"or are you saying that they all look the same to you?"

I'm not EVEN going to go there..

Thanks for the link..It was interesting reading.

My immediate comment about using black face paint to represent chimney sweeps could be a relatively modern interpretation for an ancient custom the meaning of which may be lost in antiquity {and could have had something to do with the Moors-meaning dark skinned people.. Or it could have not had anything to do with the Moors.}

I am curious as to why a kiss from a chimney sweep was considered good luck..

I know in the United States there was a folk custom that patting the hair of a Black child [or person] was good luck..I find that custom offensive too..

But, this is not to say that that custom and getting a kiss from a black face painted child or man are in any way related [heavens forbid that there would be any promotion what so ever of interracial sexualized conduct!!-I'm sure [and I'm not being facitious at all] that this is the furthest thing from these folks minds...

Now in America, the reaction to Black faced men kissing White women would be far different.. As I'm sure you know, not that long ago Black men and Black boys were mutilated and lynched for even LOOKING at White women. I can't imagine that Americans living with such 'traditions' would tolerate the public exhibit of men or boys in Black paint kissing White girls and White women.

So yes, the history is different..

I look forward to reading more about Guising.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:44 PM

Here are few facts and observations I have made during extensive anthropological research over 35 years of living very close to padstow

The Cornish are not racist, they are Cornish, and its not easy to get a job there unless you are and or have Cornish connections.
Immigration restrictions have been removed and border crossing only costs as you leave via the Tamar.
The Prince of Wales depends on the area for his allowance.
Padstow ,or Padstein as it known in certain circles, is a beautiful little harbour town where during the sumer evenings you can be nearly run over by the young lads as they scooter around the quayside and consume quantities of canned brew in the surrounding shelters.
This behaviour shows how well they fit the description of most towns in England as a whole.
The price of property has meant most local young people cannot afford to buy homes as more properties are bought up as holiday homes. this was always bound to cause a reaction.
The enforced decline of the fishing fleet has compounded the problem.

At the same time the people are genuine, warm and friendly and as a community they are very close and protective of their own.

Music plays a key part in their lives, its not high art, its fun, for it to be taken in any other way demonstrtes a total lack of understanding and ignorance on the part of any accuser.

When was the last time your town had a knees up? It happens most of the time in Padstow where people know and care for each other.

The best pasties at the Chough.

Music in the Red Lion and the Ship

Sometimes the London

Best Leather craft work at Bagend

Speed boats    Cyclone    well I chipped in for it.

oss oss wee oss


Tonight Graeme Knoghts's CD launch at the legion in St Albans

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:34 PM

Rochester Sweeps Festival

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 11:53 AM

In the case of events like Rochester Sweeps - there is no dirty bathwater that needs throwing away. Or do you think there is?

There must even be some question whether there is any dirty water to throw away in Darkie Days for I think we need more information before many of us express an opinion either way. Without this information - it would be equally as bad to defend it as it is to attack it.

There would appear to be differences in these traditional events and as it would be quite wrong to read any racial aspects into events like Rochester Sweeps it would be quite wrong to risk this type of event - or are you saying that they all look the same to you?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:43 AM

Shambles,
How about throwing the dirty bathwater away and not the baby.

See Dave the gnome's post of 28 Feb 05 - 07:40 AM.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:36 AM

Perhaps we should specify the exact nature of the supposed offence and to whom? Is it just the dressing-up as black people?

I asked Mrs Shambles for her thoughts on men dressing-up as women for entertainment and on high days and holidays and if this dressing-up was offensive.

She did have a bit of a problem with the pantomime dame and the larger than life high-lighting of female stereotypes like the mother-in-law or verbal attacks upon women in general from this role. She did not seem to take offence at just the act of men dressing-up as women for a bit of fun (or any other reason).

So perhaps it really is the intent (or the percieved intent) of all of this dressing-up that is the real issue? If this is the case then those who think that particpants in traditional events like Rochester Sweeps (where there clearly is no intent to offend black people) should use some colour other than black or otherwise modify things - can think again?

If these events and the dressing-up involved - have nothing to do with race - it does not seem to be sensible to risk them out of over-sensitivity and it is not as if there are not enough real race issues for us all to address?

And even in events that may appear to be a little more questionable - perhaps the benefit of the doubt can also be given there? We should all take care and work as to not to cause offence to others but perhaps should not risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater - for no good reason.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:38 AM

In the mid seventies, when I was going to Ohio University, I saw several students in blackface for the annual Halloween orgy. They were mimicking, very crudely, African Americans. (One girl was dressed as Aunt Jemima.) The idea was to offend people. Lots of the students wore offensive costumes. One young man dressed as a prengnant nun. Another had on a trench coat, a pair of sneakers, a pair of socks, and a pair of shorts to which he had attached a large loofah sponge. He was standing in a doorway flashing people. A group of young men wore striped convict uniforms, and chanted, occasionally "We're from----Prison where men are men, women are scarce and sheep are nervous!"
As I said, the idea was to offend people.
Blackface, and the term "darkie", in the U.S. are associated with some rather unfortunate stereotypes.
I understand Harlequin's black mask was, to show that he came from the coal mines of Bergamo, Italy. Just an aside.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:27 PM

Susan,
I am not an expert on racism, nor do I want to be..therefore I defer to others to answer that question or speak to that issue.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM

Azizi, no, you did not say that, nor did I imply you had. I am talking about what people have shared said at a variety of workshops, etc., specifically on racim, sexism, classism, etc., in which I have participated and which I led for many years in a variety of settings. If you feel their expeience is not relvant for you, that's fine. A generalization synthesized from group input is not usually completely accurate to any one individual, nor should it be assumed to be.

Azizi, BTW-- do you agree that only crimes of intent are racism?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:04 PM

Cornwall's race problems have put them under scrutiny. Why don't they address them instead of whinging?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:50 PM

Susan.

You wrote that:

"There has been such a lack, historically, of white folk owning up to what had been done and still is done, that people of color and their allies have gotten into a habit of assuming that wrong is either happening or just on the verge of happening. It's expressed as "sounds racist to me" and I am sure it feels very accusatory, but it's actually an expression of fear. "I'm scared, do I need to be?" It never quite feels safe enough to even name it as a fear. It masquerades as vigilance, but it's fear. And remember-- an often-justified fear."

As a person of color speaking for myself, "fear" didn't and doesnpt at all factor into my response and analysis of this tradition.
Though I appreciate your intent,if I understand you correctly, I'm not sure that your fear premise is valid for people of color and our "allies"

In this thread I wrote that I found the customs described about Afro wig wearing, faced blackened, minstrel singing folks to be offensive and insensitive..

You will note that in none of my previous posts have I ever said nor have I implied that these people were racist..I don't think they are..

And I'm not afraid.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:40 PM

DtG, yes, that is a helpful start for me, but please-- I am speaking from a good amount of experience actually working with a variety of groups on eliminating a variety of oppressions-- and it DOES operate below the level of intent. It is a form of racism when it operates that way. It is different in DEGREE from crimes of racism, but an ism is an ism is an ism, and they get buried inside us in our enculturation.

~S~

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:21 PM

Racism, BTW is not limited to what people INTEND

Susan, sorry but I must object. Racism is purely and simply about intent. Racism is the crime of discriminating against someone or being deliberately hurtful to them on grounds of race. That CANNOT be done unintentionaly. It can be very deep seated, almost automatic, but it is still intentional. What has happened in this and countless other cases is that the tradition has not moved with the times. Whether it should or should not is a completely different argument to whether it is racist or not.

As to I'd want to see UK folk tell us all about these traditions, and how and why they are valuable to you individually-- as a celebration, not as a defense against a perceived charge of racism. Try and liken it to your 4th of July celebrations. It celebrates your vicory over the British. It is something you have done for over 200 years. If I was to move next door to you and complain of your racism towards me every July 4th would you stop doing it? Of course not, and rightly so. It is very simple. Independance day is not racist. St Patricks day is not racist. Bastile day is not racist. Celebrating one way of life in no way shape or form degrades another. Mumming, Morris, Darkie days, Nutters et al are simply celebrating a way of life that some people wish to keep alive.


Any clearer?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 03:37 PM

To make a point about cross-cultural awareness (US/UK) as regards racism, here's something that might help explain why there can be such a level of concern expressed that it comes across as accusatory, especially toward you Brits--

The degree of racial violence here in the US was and sometimes still is extreme, and it has continued behind the scenes long after it seemed to no longer be considered acceptable.

A feeling-- frequently justified by developments (in the world, not here)-- has resulted that when the surface layer appears to be ambiguous, about "racial" matters, people of color are going to be hurt.

There has been such a lack, historically, of white folk owning up to what had been done and still is done, that people of color and their allies have gotten into a habit of assuming that wrong is either happening or just on the verge of happening. It's expressed as "sounds racist to me" and I am sure it feels very accusatory, but it's actually an expression of fear. "I'm scared, do I need to be?" It never quite feels safe enough to even name it as a fear. It masquerades as vigilance, but it's fear. And remember-- an often-justified fear.

When people react to that historically-justified fear by getting defensive that "we are not about that", it tends to reinforce the fear rather than reduce it.

Now, I understand that the UK is not responsible for US upsets. But we do see, here at Mudcat, quite a lot of transatlantic judgmentalism in both directions on a variety of topics, and a corresponding amount of mutual defensiveness and puzzlement.

What to do? Well, I for one would like to see a greater US awareness that British people here at Mudcat tend to be the ordinary working folk who've been held down in their own society-- not the folk who have made a fortune off the labor of others-- and that UK Mudcatters are under an onslaught in your own culture now, to be robbed of your culture by forces we here in the US cannot quite understand.

In that, UK Catters have something in common with people of color in the US-- who also were robbed of a culture. There's a wide patch of common ground there. Isn't there?

Commonalities can be harder to discover, but much more satisfying to note, than the things that tend to divide people.

I'd want to see UK folk tell us all about these traditions, and how and why they are valuable to you individually-- as a celebration, not as a defense against a perceived charge of racism. Telling us gets complicated, because reading the descriptions here, speaking just for myself-- I have NO IDEA what you're talking about! :~) I'm not even sure where to start, to form a question! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM

Things may not be what is deemed currently - to be politically correct - but things deemed not to be politically correct were initially well-intentioned moves to politely address possible offence and what may become full blown racism - before they do. Being non PC and being rascist are not the same thing.

To view events like this as anything other than perhaps having some clumsy or confused aspects that may give offence to some - as possibly being racist is not helpful. When (even the local) the media suggest this or use these terms - they are being a little irresponsible.

Blacking up for guising mumers is not I repeat not Racist while dressing up as black men singing "polly wally doodle or whatever" is at best distatseful and worst Racist.

Events like Rochester Sweeps Festival look to be OK but perhaps there is not enough evidence either way for current Darkie Days. But even if the latter were as described, and I am not sure that it is, in the above quote - there are perhaps other words than distasteful and racist that could more accurately describe it. I think we would agree that it is not exactly the KKK or existing in anything like the same envirionment or culture.

For IF the troublesome 'minstrel' concept was the case - and the participants do not agree with this extreme outside view being expressed of their activities - they are more likely to dig-in and less likely to see that there may be aspects that could possibly be addressed to avoid causing offence.

There is also the view that imitation is a form of flattery. But if the intention is clearly NOT mockery - perhaps seeing it more as flattery - is the way forward.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:38 PM

You might have a point there Susan, but I am sure most of us don't do it intentionally. I think that is where the difference is.
There is a difference between somebody who does it with pleasure versus somebody who does it unintentionally.

I shouted at my daughter tonight because she was winding me up, and I was very tired. She was in tears. I didn't do it intentionally. I apologised and we cuddled and made up. It didn't mean that I didn't love her.

There is a difference. People who are judging Folkies are misguided interfering, uninformed about the traditions. Go find somebody who is really rascist and sort them out.

It makes my blood boil.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:01 PM

Easy to say what someone else "should" do, eh?

Racism, BTW is not limited to what people INTEND. Yes of course it's good to know what people intend, and it's good for people to intend good things, but racism has a way of snaking its way through our cultures all on its own. One of its most pernicious characteristtics is precisely that it happens DESPITE intention-- when people's attention is off on something else. Oppression works like that.

Did anyone here among us in this discussion, for instance, MEAN to wake up this morning and mistreat someone else because of some unexamined and inaccurate impression about them? Of course not. But if we are honest, don't we do this every day to some measure, toward someone we encounter?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 03:20 AM

I also think we sometimes need to examine whether our ignorance can be percieved as racist, albeit unintentionally.

I think we do. I also think that those who see this (ignorance or innocence) as being racist - should examine if this perception also stems from ignorance.

Somtimes it appears that more live bullets are fired at folk and practices where the cause of any possible offence to black people is largely unintentional - than are fired where the intention is overtly racist.

If the intention is for us all to move on and not turn those involved in what they may see as an innocent activity into racists - the approach to the activity in question should perhaps be proportionate and always informed?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:26 PM

She should try living in the place.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:19 PM

For what it's worth:

My step-daughter is black African. She's very aware of racial attitudes in the UK, having lived here more than a decade. She has seen Bacup and other blacked-up morris sides on numerous occasions, and thoroughly enjoys them because she clearly understands the traditions and the context. Early on as a young teenager she had a long conversation with one of the Bacup guys who explained the various historical theories behind this tradition - guising to prevent being recognised by bosses in the Industrial Revolution, dancing by sweeps or miners, warding off evil spirits - and when it came to the latter she immediately said "ah yes, we paint our faces white in traditions in my country to do that". Oh and she's actually rather amused by the "Moorish dancers" theory and wants to be one - though god knows what the Ring will make of a black female morrisperson.

When she saw the cutting from the Times last week about the Padstow situation, she was astonished and thought the whole idea that the tradition could be taken as racist was ridiculous and political correctness gone crazy.

. . . for what it's worth . . .

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:46 PM

Snuffy

The play is the now known as the Abram Pace Egg play. Essentially it is a composite of Lancashire Easter Pace Egg plays. Dave the Gnome has found an (almost) word for word script in a 19thC book on the Legends of lancashire (I can't remember the exact name of the book) that describes the play being done in a Manchester town centre pub. This play however is based on Christmas and even though the body of the script is almost identical , the calling on speech references Christmas

Eddie Cass writes that it "owes much to the chapbook traditions of Lancashire".

We end the play with your "we're 1-2-3 jolly boys all in one mind" etc.

Our play is only performed during the week before Easter and on Good Friday.

Sorry to all for thread creep but it's constructive thread creep.

Spot (A.K.A. Dave Wynn)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:58 AM

Seeing as it's Christmas how about the Wren? I'm sure you could change "12th night is the last" to "This Mumming's the last" :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: IanC
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

Snuffy

As I've said, they're usually popular songs (i.e. popular with the audience). The versions collected from Nottinghamshire mention, for example '"A Farmer's Boy" and other popular songs'. "A Farmer's Boy" is circa 1830. I haven't come across a great deal of mention of songs from "The Minstrel Craze", though they'd come under the category of popular songs.

Somewhere, I have a set of 3 songs as sung after the play from one of the Notts villages. I'll try and drag it out.

:-)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:38 AM

Spot,

We're looking for songs at the end of the play, not the start. Most of ours start with Father Christmas bursting in "A room, a room, a roust, a doust" or similar. We do occasionally start using a version of the pace-egging song "We're 1-2-3 jolly lads, all in one mind..." using either the tradtional tune or Villikins.

Most Warwickshire plays seem to have ended with a song, but which song? It is either unspecified or a minstrel song. We want to find what they sang before the minstrel craze.

The Cotswold Shepherd's Song is well known round here, and indeed Blockley is one of our regular performance spots, but I've never previously heard of it being adapted to Mummers' use. Which play is that? Perhaps we could do something along those lines.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM

The Lancashire Pace Egg traditions have specific calling on songs. Ours goes.

We actors are the best of men that ere trod English ground

We never are faint hearted our voices are full sound

We never are faint hearted but boldly tell our tale

And if in time you like our rhyme

You may give us cakes and ale.

For drink and jovial company we prize above all gold.

This easter time We act our rhyme

And drink good ale and old

There are others in similar vein but I have never heard one that uses any form of minstrel song in their play.

I am not conversant with the mumming plays of Warwickshire.

Spot

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats at Work
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:56 AM

This wasn't started as a 'flamer' but out of concern that a part of the tradition of the UK was under investigation.
The Merrymakers removed all words such as n****r many years ago, they only black their faces or put St Pirans cross on. Curly wigs..maybe, but the red or blue ones they wear on May 1st. As for the songs, it has all been said by others, not a racialy motivated song amongst them. Darkie is a very old westcountry word meaning the dark times, roads and streets that have been here for centuries are called Darkie Lane. As others have, so rightly, said, some people have put their own interpretation on them and made it something it is not.
see you on May day.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM

Ian C

So would you recommend Britney or Gareth Gates? Or Franz Ferdinand? Or J-Lo?

But presumably not Whitey who's at #67 in the UK singles Chart this week. :>)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: IanC
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:29 AM

Snuffy

It's traditional for mummers to sing popular songs of the day, or slightly old ones. That's pretty much it, as far as I can ascertain. Traditional is often how you behave, rather than a particular song, I think.

:-)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:28 AM

I know the Padstow people.

If you dont like it do let them know and they will tell you.

It is not good manners to talk behind peoples backs.

'Who do you think you are?' is the attitude it tends to engender.

And Sod off

There is absolutely nothing racist in the activities in Padstow and to imply such is to to cast a slur on a communty which is how divisions occur and maybe this thread was begun as a 'flamer'

The tunes that these good people play on their accordions and drums as they pass from pub to pub demanding money -with menaces i.e. give us money or we'll stay and play some more!! are well known, popular and now fairly recogniseable!!!

Its a close knit communty, rarely found these days and very protective and proud of their trads so outside interference is not always welcome, as they say.

Anyone moving to the area finds it very difficult to be accepted.

Do they need educating? or is it the way we all act.Is Padstow a microcosm. If you go into someones home you may not agree with what goes on so do keep yourself to yourself.

All decent Padstonians will heed and listen and no doubt will adapt.

At least they celebrate, share a communty spirit and have something to offer.

No slot machines in penny arcades there -yet, just overpriced retaurants.

May day this year will be celebrated not on the 1st , because it falls on a Sunday, therefore celebrations will take place on Monday 2nd May.

That fact says much for the respect of the town.

The day is for Padstonians many of whom return for the day, but visitors are always welcome.

Little Lise??? or Little Eyes. Why isnt it another Cornish Anthem!!!

Well it is now.

We all absorb influences from different cultures, I play a guitar.

Storm over? teas gone cold.

'Going to build a mountain'

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 03:29 AM

The Cornish wouldn't treat them any differently from any other outsiders. *Smiles*

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: mg
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:42 PM

Here are my suggestions for the situation. I am in the US, so please feel free to make suggestions about any traditions we have here likewise, many of which we have had to revise etc. I think it is just one of those things where the origins are lost in history, no offense is meant, but yet....I would suggest some sort of committee be formed that communicates with various parties, and regardless of other suggestion, rename the event to something like "Padstow Olden Days" or something....anything..eliminate entirely any use of the word "n...", and change the blackface to other colors, purple, whatever, and inform the community of the reason for the changes. mg

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:00 AM

Got nothing old - but our calling-on song is an adaption of the pace-egging song (if that helps)- see
http://www.beerfordbury.co.uk/BBTWTA/stgeorgetxt.htm
& http://www.folkplay.info/ for useful info & links. That nice Mr Shuttleworth might have some ideas ....

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Snuffy
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:41 AM

Almost all the traditional Mummers plays collected in and around Warwickshire seem to end with a minstrel song: Camptown Races, Old Bob Riddley and Not For Joe are the favourites. This is because they were collected in the late 19th or early 20th century, long after the minstrel craze had swept Britain. The old songs previously sung were simply swept away by the new craze.

We would love to sing the songs that pre-1840 mummers used to sing rather than sing the minstrel songs, but there is no evidence for us to go on. We have been looking for some possible mummers songs for a while now with no success.

In the meantime, for lack of anything more traditional, we are forced to stick to the songs given by the collectors. Can anyone help with old material?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Compton
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:00 AM

I think the crux of the matter is the (perhaps) unfortune title "darkie days!"..Putting on a black face, ergo; Border Morris, Coconut dance, Mummers Plays have no relevance to racism. It is and always was purely to disguise / "to be unrecognisable". all Padtoww have to do to escape the Racism Police is to (slightly) rethink the name of the day...then (almost) EVERYONE will be happy!

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 08:55 AM

Anyone got a spare teacup?

Mines broken ...

....... appears to have suffered a localised hurricane ............

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 07:40 AM

I would be more than interested to know whether the Padstow tradition started like the other Morris and Mumming traditions and then became 'hijacked' by the people wanting to act like Al Jolson? If so it is something we will have to watch for. Wonder if this happened in the US as well - Which is why the Mummers parade there has become the minstrel mimicry whereas the Mumming play here has not yet been infected?

Perhaps we have a Black and White minstrel virus travelling across the Atlantic? Wonder if Symatec know about it...

:D

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 07:27 AM

Like Spot earlier I appear in a Pace Egg Play every Easter - Same one in fact! We have had the discussion on that topic before. I am quite happy to defend that tradition but I am very unsure about Afro wigs and minstrel songs. I think I said in the thread on Mumming (AKA Pace Egg) that there was a world of difference between the UK style of Mumming and the potentialy offensive mimicry of the Black and White minstrel. The Padstow 'tradition' has got me wondering if that is always true.

I would not dream in a million years of wearing an Afro wig or singing 'de Camptown races' while I was in black face. I have no idea whether the people doing such things are racist or not. I must however agree with Azizi on this one. I seriously question the sensitivity, and possibly inteligence, of anyone who does don full minstrel 'guise' thinking that they will cause no offense. What is more the afro wig and minstrel song has nothing whatsoever to do with the tradition that pre-dates these affectations. Why on earth have th egood people of Padstow allowed this sort of nonsense to infiltrate there otherwise excelent piece of local colour? (Pun almost intended but withdrawn on grounds of taste:-) )

If this tradition has become a tastless piece of mimicry then yes, by all means put a stop to that side of it. But please don't tar all traditions with the same brush. (Sorry - bad taste pun again...)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:43 AM

So, to repeat Peter's question, what were the changes made to song and costume and why?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:57 AM

Thanks, Cllr. Those who know me know that I could never and would never support anything I considered to be racist in any way shape or form. I would be the first to stand up and try to get it stopped and have done in the past. If you look at everything I have said I have reported what is going on as I have concerns that, if it is events such as Rochester Sweeps could also be considered racist. It is something that we need to watch. I have never come down on one side or the other. I have tried to right some perpetuated myths. E.g. It is conveniently forgotten that the story, and it is a story as there is no truth in history to support it, of the people of Padstow seeing the slaves and blacked up was to help them escape by everyone blacking their faces and hiding the slaves amongst them! Now, if by saying that you think I am a racist then that is your problem and not mine.

Yes, I know that Cornwall is the third most racist county in the country behind Northumbria and Devon and I am trying to change it - and I am putting my name to it. At the launch of the policy document 2 weeks ago it was spelt out, in no uncertain terms, that the way to combat racism is to educate our children. That's what I am trying to do. Now, if you think that having Darkie Days is the whole reason behind the problem in Cornwall, which some 'guest' seems to imply by putting in the links to it, then you are way off the mark. Hardly anyone down here even knew about DD before it hit the press.

Now, I'll get on with doing my bit to combat racism, and I'll also get on with making sure all the rich traditions from all over the UK are not forgotten by the next generation - and that they understand their origins.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:49 AM

Cats, "bells and whistles" was my paraphrasing and was too strong, for which I'm sorry. Perhaps you could explain in what way the custom changed, and in what ways it might previously have been causing offence.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 05:08 AM

On Darkie Days the local people in Padstow, as in so many other places across the UK and beyond, black up and go Guising.

This issue is ONLY about Padstow. Cornwall has enough race issues without adding to them.

The style of make up and words to songs which may have been deemed offensive were changed quite a few years ago because the people of Padstow didn't want to cause offence to anyone.

Guising isn't what has caused the offence and media interest. Padstow's ignorance on what guising is meant to represent has done the damage. Independent reports from those with no vested interest in the tradion or axe to grind against it, do not support Cat's opinion that their make up and songs changed 'a few years ago'. (or does she mean Bernie Grant years?)

The police consulted with the organisers this year, before any filming took place. So the good people of Padstow had plenty of notice to ditch the afro wigs and ni**er songs. Why don't they accept their errors in good grace.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cllr
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:45 AM

yes and Grant got involved in it by calling for a ban in 1998 as I refereered to earlier don't believe me check on google its well documented. Trying to say that cats was wrong because her timing wasn't specific enough for you is is just pedentry.
I used to work for the the Crown Prosecution service on special cases which included among other things "incitment to racial hatred" all cases in Engalnd are dealt with in one office to assure a equality of treatment throughout the country (the same is true of "indecent publication")
I have been to padstow for the the may day celebration and while I ealise that does not make me an expert and I avoided getting involved in the debate specific because a lot of the points I would make have already been made.
Blacking up for guising mumers is not I repeat not Racist while dressing up as black men singing "polly wally doodle or whatever" is at best distatseful and worst Racist.
The issue in england is basically in Padstow mummery OR minstrals.

One thing I can catagorically say without a shadow of a doubt and no hesitation is that cats is not in any way shape or form, by act deed or thought, racist. Cllr

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 04:19 AM

Cat's opening post 'Two or three years ago Bernie Grant MP tried to get it stopped as he considered 'blacking up' was racist.'

Bernie Grant died FIVE years ago.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 02:44 AM

Peter - show me where I have said it was 'overlaid by racist bells and whistles'. Never. Please do not attribute to me something I have never said. What I did say was that some years ago it changed because they did not want to offend anyone.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 02:57 PM

Who was that masked man?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 01:33 PM

wysiwyg perhaps linking this thread to any decrying the demise of folk clubs in UK would be more suitable. :^))

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 01:00 PM

Pay attention, people:
The United States of America is NOT the world. Other people have different customs.
Get used to it.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 12:42 PM

i think the posts sent to derail this thread by not even assuming to have any relation to it speak volumes. they ended sensible debate and lost their casue in one foul swoop. give 'em enough rope and they can't fail to swing. i also doubt if anyone originally interested in the debate wishes to continue. their point of view has already been put across. and the responses recieved give them their answers.