Review: Spurious Kurdish musicians & Art in Hull

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: GUEST,jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:46 PM

This is the first post I have made to thuis thread,
2 people (guest and Greg Stephens] said it was me, it wasn;t.


To the person that did start this thread-you aree a trouble maker, and why dont you just fuck off, you trued to make trouble on this thread, and the other thread [that i did start].

I know Nahro and Adalet, and consider them friends, and good musicians.
never heard of the other people you mention.
you say they dont play rel kurdish music, even if that was true, so waht?

I reckon your just jealous of them.



John Evans [jOhn from Hull]

if you like to talk to me about this, and prove your not a trouble maker, I work in the indian take away on Chanterlands Ave.
[if you dont know me, just ask for john]

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From:
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:54 AM

At last some of you understand what im talking about.

if you are calling it folk. it should be Folk or not Folk,

i would love to keep intuch with all of you about Kurdish music or any other issue that effect Kurdish community. this is my emaile
[e-mail].

i will be back to answear greg stephens- Richard Bridge-Linda Kelly.

thanks for your time and your attention to Kurdish people and oure Folklore.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in H
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:27 AM

The fact that PKR has identified Nahro Zagros as one of his targets puts these posts in the realm of legitimate criticism(if a bit hostile) rather than just some kind of TROLL stuff.
    Nahro is a cosmopolitaN Kurdish muscian, familiar with other idioms as well as traditional Kurdish music. he plays with mussicians from other cultures in his band, and likes Eastern European stuff, as well as Kurdish rad, and his own stuff. Some of the Kurdish people I knw play very hardline trad, some aspire to the ubiquitous Yamaha keyboard disco sound belved of modern emigre Middle Eastern musicians everywhere. These are all different kind of music. And, as I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine called Kamran plays cello in the No Staffs Symphony orchestra, and also very tra Kurdish in the Baq Band (it's pronounced Back, I may have the spelling wrong, I've not seen it written down).
    So, lots of people, lots of kinds of music. And PKR may have a point if some of the music is presented as Kurdish trad if it isnt. If a load of English refugees arrived in Kurdistan and started setting up bands there might be a bit of dispute too. Say the local folklore festival in Kirkuk put on an English band and said it was English folk music. And say the band was actually a straightforward 12-bar Saturday night pub blues band. Then you might well find the impeccable Copper style harmony group complaining bitterly if they didn't get the gig.
   What I find interesting, to change the subject, is the validity of my own value-judgements on Kurdish music. I have recorded loads of Kurdish singers, for example. Obviously, I started having opinions quite quickly about which ones I liked better than others. Do my opinions make any sense in Kurdish terms? For a start, I hadnt much clue who was in tune and who weren't, some of the scales are so wierd. And the amount of throbbing emotion used, another criterion, is I expect much more highly valued by most Kurds than it is by me. I know that one of the singers I've recorded stands out head and shoulders above the others, to me. But does he to the other Kurds...some, or all, of them? It is very intriguing. And helps you think about your own music too. I would seriously like a chat with you, Proud Kurdish refugee, your analysis of what is going on here would be very interesting.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 05:14 PM

I am as yet unclear where the original poster sets out an assertion that his objection is to people (who I think may actually be Kurds) who are playing music and creating art that is not wholly Kurdish. There are two possibilities: one is that they are falsely representing that what they do is traditional, and if so then that falsehood deserves condemnation, but the other is that they make no false representation, in which case I can understand that they might wish to innovate in their art, and I would not condemn that as such.

It's very like "folk" or not. I don't necessarily dislike contemporary acoustic music, and indeed play some because I like it, but I don't call it "folk". On the other hand I may take a "folk" song, and arrange it: it's still a "folk" song but it is no longer wholly a "folk" song - compare Steeleye Span innovating in the presentation of folk.

What would be wrong would be to say that there must never be any change to music or art, or that everyone must like all types equally, or some not at all. Either of those things would be just as worthy of rebuttal as their analogues in other political arenas.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM

Malcolm, with respect, I know some of musicians concerned -talented musicians and composers. He has labelled them losers and moneygrabbers at the expense of his culture - which part of this is not defamatory? we may not know if this is true or not, and that may not be for us to say whether it is right or not, but neither is it for him. If we were having the same argument about the Copper family
or Eliza Carthy being proper exponents of English Traditional music, then we would all have different opinions as to the true nature of English Folk music -who is to say which of us will be right. It is different strokes for different folk dependent on where you are coming from-I wouldnt dream of saying Eliza is not English and the Coppers are---why music from Kurdistan should be different I fail to understand.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:22 AM

Get real everyone, he's a TROLL.

eric

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: oombanjo
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:08 AM

The next time I go fishing I want this guy to partner me, cos, if he has cast bait on the water, he has you hook line and sinkered!!!!!
    Cheers Oombanjo. (Live music rules)

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:39 PM

Linda: the gentleman is simply saying that he objects to people falsely presenting what they play as authentic Kurdish music. Now, that is his opinion; we don't know, because we don't know who he is, whether or not it is an informed opinion.We are not ourselves Kurds or experts on Kurdish music. Our opinions really are worth very little in the circumstances (Greg knows far more than you or I about the subject, and I notice that he has been careful to refrain from value judgements).

The fact that people may enjoy the music is not the point. The gentleman has not said in this discussion that it is bad music; only that he considers it to be, essentially, fake. He objects to people telling lies about what they are doing, and I see no call to criticise him for that, or to put words into his mouth.

Perhaps he is wrong. It isn't, after all, uncommon for -for example- Irish people, when confronted with genuine Irish music from a regional tradition they aren't familiar with (or, in some cases, that isn't Country and Western), to deny vehemently that it could possibly be Irish. I've known Spaniards from different regions come nearly to blows about the "only" right way of cooking lentils.

None of that means that he doesn't have a legitimate opinion; and it is not for us to say that he isn't right. We simply don't know.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in H
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:29 PM

The most interesting thing about you, proud Kurdish Refugee, is that you chose Mudcat as a place to discuss Kurdish music? It is a great place to discuss it, and I am glad you have come here, as we are all very interested in folk music.
   Today I spent the day with Kurdish and other musicians in Stoke; we had a refugee event, to show the new Kurdish film "Turtles can fly", and to eat and listen to music. We all had a great time. it would have been interesting to hear what you thought of the Kurdish muscians.
   One of the musicians there, Kamran, was playing violin in the Kurdish Baq Band, but he also plays cello in the North Staffordshire Symphony Orchestra. Now, they certainly dont play Kurdish music!

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:25 PM

So what is your solution??? are you saying they shouldn't play music at all? If people like what they play and they can earn money from it -what is the harm? The fact that it isn't authentic should not make any difference their ability or their musicianship andi nthe end people pay to hear what they like. I think it must be very frustrating for you, and I absolutely understand that you want to hang onto your cultural identity, and that is your right, but some of us just enjoy the music and you are wrong to criticize musicians who enjoy their music too, who want to bring it to us and perform it in their own way even if it isn't absolutely authentic as far as your concerned Music has its own frontiers -there is a version of Incy wincy Spider in virtually every country in Europe -it isn't German or English or Swiss its music. So please jion us in the wonderful music in and around Hull and please try to understand your musicians in a positive way. and yes, Eric the Red is stupid.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/awards2005/worldmusicday.shtml

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From:
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:57 PM

Linda Kelly- i love irish and scotish people and the music. but those people are caliming they play kurdish music, i havent heard Kurdish music with east european music!? if you know what im talking about, and i will be very happy if they say we paly what we know, and not caliming they know it very well and they were proficionals in Kurdistan.

greg stephens- I dont think you know me, im every where, but not knowen to any others than Kurdish people. and i dont want to be knowen, im sorry.

eric the red- OH by god you are stuped.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:32 AM

It's not that long ago that it was Glasgow's turn to be the cultural capital ot the UK. What was that all about then?

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 07:31 AM

I doubt they are changing your culture Guest, they may be applying it in a different way. In the UK it is not OUR culture to be seperatist or secular, some would say it is our downnfall particurlarly in keeping traditions alive, but on a more general level it is our saving grace and makes our multicultural society for the most part tolerant. I realise you come from a place where that has not happened before, but in part it makes life for you and I more tolerable. You will no doubt have come acros those who want to keep England English, who practise their brand of tradition, in a fist punch or a mouthful of abuse. Don't apply those values to yourselves and do not bad mouth your countrymen who want for the love of music, to integrate and learn about other cultures. It does not make them less proud of who they are, just as when I sing an Irish song or a Scottish ballad it makes me less English. Set your natonalistic arrogance aside and be as willing to learn as much about our culture as we want to learn about yours, which I can assure you we do. Most people here consider those musicians you talk about to be friends and proud to be Kurdish -isn't that the message you want to be spread?

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in H
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:15 AM

Well I know Nahro and his music well, I dont think he would claim to play straight Kurdish traditional music. he's Kurdish, and he's a musician, and what he plays is his music. And he plays with western musicians too. Leave the poor lad alone, Nahro's playing his music, with his band, and trying to get gigs, same as anyone. Good for him.
    And anyway, who are you? JOhn from Hull?

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:08 AM

okay I'll buy it

lay on us a few spurious Kurd folk songs, oh proud one...

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:57 AM

Hey Proud Kurdish pal, if your country is so rich WHY are you in my poor country ?

eric

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From:
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 07:30 PM

i wish they acting like my country man.
but they are more british than Kurdish, and they are changing my culture and traditions, wich i have spoken to them about it, but they dont care, all they interested in is money.

last thing ever im going to put here is (dont belive them they are not palying Kurdish music, and they know nothing about it, they are just some losers).

im living and i cant go on forever, i told you and think about it.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM

I think he's j0hn.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:29 PM

You speak a lot guest but you say nothing, and why you would seek to make deflamatory remarks against your fellow countrymen is a mystery to me. You say these people do not represent Kurdish music and tradition- I suggest you take a good long hard look at yourself -because all I see is resentment envy and arrogance which I am pretty sure from personal experience is not representative of your countrymen - your country may be rich that is of no consequence to this discussion, which we share remember with people who belong to the richest country in the world. I suggest you calm down and address the issues you have in a more rational manner.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM

Vladimir Nabokov- your name seames very English! where did you come from?
for your information im working 6 days a week, and im paying for your skumes in job center, and paying your pensioners. why because your young people dont want the shetty job im doing it for you. belive me i dont want to get these words from you, if i could Fuck off to my country i would, and also you dont even know how to read or write im not from "Kurland" what the hell is kurland???!!!??.
my country is richer than yours if you dont belive me, make a reaserch, but i dont think you even want to know, but you want to talk rubbish.

greg stephens- i will tell you some names my friend, 1. Rashid&Dilzar. 2. Adalet. 3. Nahro. and some others, i know where they come from i know what families they are from, i know what kind of jobs they did in Kurdistan. dont belive them, they know nothing.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: GUEST,Vladimir Nabokov
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:59 AM

Hey Spurious Kurdish Refugee, have you got a job yet ? if not fuck off back to Kurland, you are just a drain on our society.

Vlad

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:22 AM

Can you remember trolley buses Ted?

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:08 AM

Greg,
    Troll alert! I smell a rat here.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in H
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM

No, I'm not going to give you a list of Kurds I know. I have recorded lots of Kurdish singers(and players) in Stoke, and I know a couple of guys in Hull as well. But I think if you are telling us there are people we shouldn't listen to because they are no good, you should tell us the names.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From:
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM

For you information Hull is my second city and UK in my second country and i love it more than any thing in this world, i have a chance to go away from hull, but i will never. im Hull servant.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From:
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM

greg stephens- you tell me the names that you are friends with, and i'll even tell you the people if they are fake Kurdish musicians or not.

To the one who sayed go back home it is safe!- you really dont even deserve an answear, if you want politics you welcome. I can wipe the flor by you in politics.

flamenco ted- if some thing is not your business, why should you get yourself into it!?

Hand-Pulled Boy-lol- i like people who dont care about "PC". god bless you.

Captain Windermere- thank you very much.


By the way- the thing i write is not only my view but it is the view of the majority of Kurdish people.

thanks for reading.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 12:08 PM

Its not Masonic Ted, the art gallery is already built, its on the right as you go in.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 12:01 PM

Sounds Masonic to me Derreck/Derrick/Derek.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:59 AM

It's a foreign thing Ted.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 08:46 AM

I have read this, and the other thread relating to the event at Ferens Art Gallery, and don't quite understand what's going on. Anyone got any bright ideas?

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in H
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 07:55 AM

Lets have the names. Who are the spurious people? I am seriously interested in this, as I am currently working with a lot of Kurdish musicians.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: GUEST,Captain Windermere
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 07:52 AM

spurious is spelt well, though the chip in his shoulder and the cry of victim seem to be spelt out much clearer.

Never fear, Captain Windermere is here

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 11:32 PM

You do spell 'spurious' well, though.

Subject: RE: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 11:30 PM

But surely it is safe for you to go back home now?
Then you wouldn't have to call yourself a refugee

You dont seem to like Hull, evidently, so why stay?

Subject: Review: Spurious Kurdish musicions & Art in Hull
From:
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 11:02 PM

there is lots of them in Hull, unfortunatly English people belive them.

---

Gee, I sure don't see enough music information in this thread to justify keeping it in the music section. I think I'll move it down to "BS." Some of the messages border on racism, and I may close the thread altogether if it doesn't settle down.
-Joe Offer-