BS: Affirmative Action?

Subject: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:50 PM

I wish this thread to be one of an actual discussion instead of a one liner hate fest.




Where do you stand on affirmative action?

There are usually three thoughts on this.

1. It helps minorities get the equality they deserve.

2. It hurts minorities by giving others the feeling of special treatment to minorities over caucasions.

3. It's purely a political idea thought up to pander for the votes of minorities.

....or are there more points of view out there?


Support your view. Don't be afraid to tell us how you really feel. Don't hide behind the guest moniker. Tell all who you are.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST,Jesus Christ
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:52 PM

Love your neighbour as yourself

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:54 PM

It has it's flaws but it's better than nothing. Ideally, it should be a stopgap measure until the whole thing becomes a dead issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST,George Washington
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:55 PM

Who needs 'Affirmative Action'? .. it's all written here

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 10:08 PM

Beats the heck out of what we used to have...

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST,Not Bill... best wishes anyhow
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 10:30 PM

Is Affirmative action, the same as 'positive discrimination'?

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 10:35 PM

More like 'positive desegregation', IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 10:38 PM

If you reverse the sides ( black/white, female/male) and anyone thinks it is discrimination, just possibly it the original way...

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 10:42 PM

Look, the system is still way tilted toward white folks and against black folks. I don't think, given Boss Hog's inventiveness, that affirmative action could make a dent in that basic premise in a 1000 years...

But like I said, it beats what we used to have...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:35 PM

1. It gives minorities equal opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Jeep man
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:46 PM

Pure and simple, Reverse Discrimination. If a man is given preferential treatment because of race, he has accomplished nothing.
America should always remain a level playing field.

If a mans score does not measure up, Study,Study, Study.

Jeep

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:52 PM

Affirmative action does not, and never was intended to, mean giving one group preferential treatment over another. It means taking action to make sure that opportunities exist for people to compete rather than being shut out before they have a chance to start. It can mean, for example, recruiting for a vacant job in a "minority" newspaper in addition to the "regular" media or doing outreach in a predominately minority school to assure that students know about the availability of jobs. Quotas are another thing entirely, and so are hiring preferences. These have nothing to do with affirmative action and are, IMHO, wrong.

The same principles should apply to admission to higher education. That is, admission standards should be the same for everyone, as should be academic expectations, but affirmative action implies making special effort to attract and, as needed, pay for minority students.

BTW, I worked in affirmative employment for over 20 years, for the Federal (US) government (which is hardly the ogre that Bobert thinks it is) and I watched the workplace change tremendously over that time because of the positive efforts made by the government as an employer.

To address the three rather loaded choices given above:
It helps minorities get the equality they deserve. Doesn't everybody "deserve" an equal opportunity to demonstrate that they can do a job, without automatically being excluded because they aren't given a chance, often by simply not knowing that a job exists?

It hurts minorities by giving others the feeling of special treatment to minorities over caucasions. Well, besides the fact that some "minorities" who have been the targets of affirmative action programs are Caucasians, such as many Hispanics and the majority of America's working women, I don't think this is at all accurate. Affirmative action provides an individual with the chance to compete fairly, and I have rarely encountered a situation in which the best person for the job wasn't hired, regardless of his (or her) "minority" status, and most of the other applicants didn't recognize that the person hired was the best candidate.

It's purely a political idea thought up to pander for the votes of minorities. This is simple nonsense.

Affirmative action is the reason that my last boss, before I retired, was a woman and her boss was a Hispanic man. They were given opportunities to compete which did not exist 20 years before, when every senior manager was a white man, and they rose to the level in the organization that their personal talents permitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Jeep man
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:56 PM

One last thought.

When I was young, there were very few jobs in my home. The best paying with most benefits was the US.Post Office.

I took all the tests and scored very high. I was on the list to get a job as Clerk/carrier.

However I never got a job because Veterans were given a 10 point advantage. I couldn,t score high enough to outpace the many veterans applying for Federal jobs.

I really didn't begrudge them their advantage. The vets had paid their dues. This is a leg up for them and I didn't get sore.

The difference between this program and Affirmative Action is that little phrase; "Paid Their Dues" Jeep

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 02:26 AM

Jeep man - If you are a white male, this very fact gives you the advantage over any other group. Affirmative Action levels the playing field.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 03:03 AM

"The difference between this program and Affirmative Action is that little phrase; "Paid Their Dues" Jeep"

ever hear about slavery, jeep?

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 03:10 AM

"America should always remain a level playing field"

in your second post you illustrated how there was not a level playing field. has there ever been? ask blacks, women, native americans. if you are a white male you've already got your "affirmative action". artbrooks gave a clear, good answer to a loaded question. good on ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST,Not Bill ... but best wishes anyhow
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:28 AM

From what I can glean from all of this, then, is that there are no underpriviliged white folks, out there.

If Affirmative Action is only directed towards minorities, then (technically) it is discriminatory.

Should it not be made a 'class' issue?

That would level the field out a bit better, as far as I can see it

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:55 AM

here

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST,Not Bill ... but best wishes anyhow
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:36 AM

Read it.

The thread started out well, but degenerated into some sort of Darwinian dissertation.

Race and religion were always used to keep the poorer classes divided.
I'm certain there are more underpriviliged 'minorities' than there are 'white' underpriviliged, but Jeep man's experience shows what can happen in these times.

I think the underpriviliged, no matter which 'race' they belong to, should be the focus of such a program.

The situation should never have to be addressed, if the truths are to be held as self-evident

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:31 AM

Just a thought..........

The big three sports in the USA are baseball, football, and basketball. I don't see any racial inequality there. Those teams are created from choosing the best candidates available for the owners to choose from. If it's good enough for sports, then why not educational and corporate America? Aren't many sports franchises owned by rich, powerful white men?

Any thoughts?




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:03 AM

America should always remain a level playing field

Precisely the point. It never was, and is not now, a "level playing field".

Idiosyncratic personal reminiscences notwithstanding.


If it's good enough for sports, then why not...

Because professional sport has devolved into a morally bankrupt, drug-sodden, corrupt cash cow for Bobert's "Boss Hogg". And because the "sport = life" analogy is infantile nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:33 AM

"If it's good enough for sports, then why not...

Because professional sport has devolved into a morally bankrupt, drug-sodden, corrupt cash cow for Bobert's "Boss Hogg". And because the "sport = life" analogy is infantile nonsense."

Greg,

As usual, you are missing the point. In the sports arena, people are paid what they're worth regardless of color, creed or religion. You have whites, blacks, hispanics and asians making millions of dollars per year because they are good at what they do.

If there are some bad apples at the decision making level then we need to deal with those people. Not make the playing field unlevel for everybody else. I thought we all had the same rights in this country. With Affirmative Action, it seems as if some people have "more" rights than others.

Let's not spread the wide blanket of change that will end up hurting more than it helps, but rather, find the source of the problem and start there.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:47 AM

No, Bubby, YOU'RE missing the point. Professional sport is artificial construct, comple bullshit, and not a reasonable analogy or example for anything in the real world.

The assinine and astronomical salaries paid to sports figures have no relation whatsoever to "what they're worth".

Besides, if you really think " we all had the same rights in this country " in practice, there's no point in further discussion with you.
The rich ALWAYS have more "rights" than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:13 AM

hmmm......are you sure?

The last time that I read the bill of rights it seemed as if they applied to anybody that held US citizenship. What "rights" are you talking about? Are there more than what's in there? If so, then when were those expressed to the American people?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:41 AM

I would have to agree with Greg that sports is not a fair analogy when talking about the merits of affirmative action.

Lets face it, the kids who are blessed with the size (mostly), talent and drive to become professional athletes do not mirror the population as a whole. Take football fir instance. In order to play the offensive line one must grow into 6'5", 330 pound person. If you take the population in general that is going to exclude just about ewveryone else. Sure, there are lots of obese folks out there and a few might be 6'5" but you'll find few folks who were blessed with the other attributes to allow them to be successfull as offensive linemen.

Basketball? About the same story. If yer 6'8" in the 9th grade, some coach is gonna grab you in the hall between classes and try to get you into a gym.

But the rest of the population? Different story. There are lots of folks perfectly capable of doing certain jobs and working in certain professions if given a chance to do so. Not every job requires the absolute best candidate. Might of fact, it has been my experience that a lot of the folks who hold down management positions ceratinly can't be the best or we're in big trouble...

So, if it is a given that our society may noe have the absolute best people in every job then, hey, why not do a little experiementing in "intergtation"??? Intergration is waht it is all about, isn't it?
I mean, once one gets beyond the morality issue of white men getting an unfair share of pie for thre last 270 some years here in what has become the US of A then the motive should be intergration.

When Lincoln (supposedly) freed the slaves, what really did the slave get? Well, absolutely nothing, except still working on Boss Hog's plantations, Jim Crow, lynchings, the KKK, seperate-but-equal crap and like...

Now if that's what folk's like hubby want to return to then they have a right to have that opinion but if we're going to take seriously the body of law, includuing the 14th Ammendment and the Civil Rights Act, which we enacted because the majority of folks felt that Jim Crow needed to be buried, then we're going to have to do some things to right the past wrongs.

Now, hub, just what are your thoughts on the 14th Ammendment and the Civil Rights Act? And Part B, if you will, what ideas do you have on reaching the goals that those two important laws outline?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:49 AM

Not to mention the 13th Ammendment. And Bubby, please re-read, this time for comprehension: I wrote "in practice", not "in theory".

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:13 PM

"With Affirmative Action, it seems as if some people have "more" rights than others."

without "AA" there are people with "more" rights than others. that would be the white guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:20 PM

This back and forth reminds me of a statement made by Dorothy Kilgallen:

"If you don't smoke marijuana you don't know anybody who does; if you do, you don't know anybody who doesn't."

If you don't see the need for AA, then likely you will never be convinced it's necessary. Has to do with the heart I think.

Regarding sports: A player about a decade ago was given $42,000,000 to play basketball for either six or seven seasons. Nice work if ya can get it. I don't know his ethnicity--I do know that's a load of money to be paid to throw a ball through a hoop.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:00 PM

Greg,

Please re-read, this time for comprehension: It's H-U-B-B-Y ! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:05 PM

I don't think race or sex should EVER be a factor in employment, university admissions, whatever. We're all People, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:29 PM

Artbrooks has said it well.

Just for my information:
How much African American blood makes a person 'black' in the sense of affirmative action?
For which groups is there affirmative action? African Americans, Asian Americans,...?

As for sports, Hubby, you may also think of boxing (discrimination based on weight) or Olympics (with the exception of sailing and horse riding you'd see no woman competing at all if there were not separate competitions).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:41 PM

Programs (like Affirmative Action) get complicated when a good idea for short-term tactical action becomes entrenched as a systematized strategy.... and then become further entrenched as normative culture. IMO the best programs include a good amount of attention to their own planned obsolescence.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: DougR
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 03:39 PM

Wolfgang, I agree. Art Brooks nailed it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 03:46 PM

Wolfgang, we (in the US) have an interesting thing commonly referred to as "self-identification"...that is, you are what you think of yourself as being. I don't think there are percentages in use any more (except for Indians...and that's their choice), although it was once a normal practice . I remember a famous (at the time) case in the state of Louisiana in which a socialite (US code for rich White woman) was discovered to be 1/128 Black and was suddenly kicked out of all the organizations she belonged to...this was back in the bad old days, of course. "Hispanic" is another group that often has affirmative action programs available to it, but this term is more vague than you'd think. Legally, it means people who are from, or descended from, the Spanish speaking parts of the Old and New World. A rich Spaniard is Hispanic, but a poor Brazilian (who speaks Portuguese) is not. A person named Richardson, whose mother was Hispanic, is considered Hispanic (that would be the governor of New Mexico), but a woman whose married name is Gomez is not, unless she is of Spanish descent herself.

Asians, as a "race", are usually not eligible for affirmative action...mostly because they do very well on their own...but there are exceptions for individual groups such as the Hmong. Indians, aka "Native Americans," are also eligible, and they have a specific legal priority, called the Indian Preferance Act, for positions in the Federal government in those agencies that deal directly with Indian issues (Bureau of Indian Affairs, Indian Health Service, etc). The individual Indian nations/tribes define their own membership; they normally use percentages, but there is little consistency from one to another. It isn't impossible for a person to be 100% Indian by ancestry, but to have insufficient lineage in any specific tribe to be a member.

As Susan says, the best AA programs are those that eliminate their own reasons for existance. Those for women in entry level professional positions are being, or have been, phased out. The emphasis has shifted to the "glass ceiling," which is the term used to describe the problem women have in moving past mid- and into upper management. As members of minority groups move into the level of employment at which they select those at the next lower level, the problem...and the need...will disappear. And, to anticipate the next comment, in over 20 years as a Human Resources professional, the only people who I encountered who made their job selections based upon ethnicity, race or sex were white males. Perhaps those who have been the subjects of prejudice are less likely to be the perpretrators of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:54 PM

A Brazilian would be considered Latino.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:11 PM

True, Kim. But, according to the (US) Federal government, the population group is Hispanic, not Latino, and that is how the AA programs are directed.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Jeep man
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:02 PM

Dianavan. When the "Playing Field" is leveled in this manner, you are removing the cream of the crop in favor of Almost as Good. Jeep

Guest,Guess I had little to do with slavery, or the people who propogated it.

I don't feel like I should suffer for deeds of my ancestors, no more that blacks should be rewarded for misdeeds to thier ancestors.

Minorities should look around and find the real reason for their alledged inability to compete. Blaming Whitey is getting old. Jeep

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:18 PM

Guest,Guess I had little to do with slavery, or the people who propogated it.

You give yourself too little credit; you're evidently one of those who enthusiastically perpetuate its legacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:26 PM

There is also the matter of physical disability. I believe that is included in Affirmative Action, but if not, it certainly is in the Americans with Disabilities Act.

I don't think that I, personally, have been denied a job because of my physical disability (polio at age two, walked with forearm crutches all my life; now, due to wear and tear on the shoulders from walking with crutches all that time, I use a wheelchair), because I never applied for a job that I couldn't do or at least learn quickly, and at interviews I tended to come on strong. I interview the interviewer, because I want to make sure I actually want that particular job. I've found that approach gives a whole new tone to a job interview.

A few years back, shortly after I started using a wheelchair, I applied for a job as a "word processor" (this was when knowing how to operated WordStar, Multi-Mate, or MS Word was a specialized skill that not too many people had acquired yet), and there, I got my first hint of the kind of thing that someone in a wheelchair can run into from time to time.

Since the place where the interview was held (not where I would actually be working) was down a long maze of hallways in one of the more sprawling buildings on the University of Washington campus, my wife accompanied me, pushing my chair when my arms pooped out. She came into the office with me and was going to wait in the reception area while the interview took place. The interviewer came out, and after introductions were made, she started out by directing her questions to Barbara, referring to me in the third person, as if I were some inanimate, uncomprehending object, not an intelligent and alert human being sitting right there in front of her. Barbara said rather stiffly, "I believe my husband is perfectly capable of speaking for himself."

The interviewer turned her attention to me, but began speaking loudly and slowly. It took her several minutes of conversation to catch on to the fact that I was not sitting there rolling my eyes and drooling, but was indeed intelligent, alert, and getting a bit pissed off. As is my wont, I turned the interview back on her, and started asking her questions. I learned that, among other things, the material I would be dealing with was tediously dull, and the pay was minuscule. So I thanked her for her time and said, "No, I don't think so, thank you." I wasn't just being snotty, I really didn't want to do the kind of work she outlined. I could do better than that, And indeed, I got a much more interesting, better paying job a few days later.

Many people seem to be under the impression that a physical disability is automatically accompanied by a reduction in mental capacity. If you can get by that hurdle, many employers are reluctant to hire someone with a physical disability because they are afraid they'll be required to make expensive modifications to the workplace to accommodate the person, when more likely than not, the only special consideration they need is for the rest rooms to be wheelchair accessible—which is required by law anyway.   

But to fill in the picture, I know a few developmentally delay people (used to be referred to as "retarded") who, if given a job within their capabilities, make diligent, hard-working employees.

Affirmative Action and/or the Americans with Disabilities Act legally require that employers give due consideration to people who, for one reason or another, have all too frequently been shunted off to the side and forced to live on welfare instead of offering them a opportunity to earn a decent living by contributing to the community.

Said employers often have to be dragged kicking and screaming into acting in their own best interest.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:34 PM

Jeep man: You said, "Minorities should look around and find the real reason for their alledged inability to compete."

What do you think are the real reasons?

Before affirmative action, most Blacks couldn't compete because the doors of opportunity were shut to them. Affirmative action opens the door of opportunity, no more - no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:07 PM

Wheres's Jim Crow and the KKK when ya need 'um, Ralph? (spit)

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:22 PM

Just dropping by to say that I am reading this thread with great interest.

IMO, schools and universities should be using threads like as supplemental educational resource.

Another thread that earlier this evening I made the same comment about is Race stories

That 2003 thread focuses on Alan Lomax's book 'Land Where The Blues Began.' It also includes posters' anecdotes about their memories of race relations when they were growing up..

Maybe reading that thread will shed some light on how unlevel the American playing field was-and to some extent-still is.

For the record, I agree with artbrooks' 01 Mar 05 - 03:46 PM comment.

As an African American female [who'd rather be thought of as an Human Being] I have had my share of prejudicial treatment. The one that hurt me the most was when I found out that a considerable number of White colleagues at this agency I worked at kept & passed around a
N--g joke book..and engaged in such other 'fun' pranks as chopping off the heads of Black figurines that were in my office, and leaving the heads laying besides the trash can.

And I thought these women were my friends.

This was in the 1990s. To make a long story short, I left that place of employment with alot of emotional scars..

But life goes on...and I thought then and still believe that those former colleagues who engaged in such activities were acting out of ignorance and imaturity more than hatred.

I believed then and still believe now that there are more good people in the world than bad..

But I'm convinced that laws are needed to provide protection against such situations and situations that are far worse.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:36 PM

Well said, MiziAzizi...

Yeah, these days it is more about ignorance than hatred. One one hand that's good but on the other it is a sad commentary on the dumbed-downdeness of out country... But ask Joe Sixpack who's leading th NASCAR points race and he'll know that???

Sad...

And yeah, I remember the Alan Lomax thread and it was interesting...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:23 PM

"Before affirmative action, most Blacks couldn't compete because the doors of opportunity were shut to them."

The only thing I would correct is this: The doors were shut to them before the interview.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:32 PM

Yeah, these days it is more about ignorance than hatred.

And that makes it WORSE, not better, Bobert. Hatred you can overcome. Ignorance is much more pernicious and intractable.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: LuteMonkey
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:35 PM

Does anyone know why we have affirmative action?

Racism ain't going anywhere soon. We're talking centuries of racial problems (I can only say that for the US). It's going to take a few centuries more to rid ourselves of it. AA is trying, desperately, to speed that along. Most folks who have a beef with AA are...can you guess?...WHITE FOLKS.

Affirmative action is slow. That's what I think about it. We got ourselves into this by turning fire hoses on black folks in the 60's, and raping the women folk in the 1760's, only to sell them into slavery. Hey, White man, Look upon your hands, see the blood?

We got to get over this. Might as well start with AA.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Jeep man
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:37 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:51 PM

When people have been denied basic human rights for centuries, and when economic systems are in place that keep poor people poor, then yes, affirmative action policies and laws become necessary. They are not pretty, but they are necessary.

The Government of the Northwest Territories has affirmative action policies. Of the eight categories, I was number eight of eight on the list. I am a Caucasian male. I think the policy is a fair one.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 12:10 AM

LuteMonkey,

I also am very impatient with the lack of progress the United States has made in dismantaling institutional racism [in housing, health care, educational systems, employment, criminal justice systems etc]. And I am saddened by the ignorance and insensitivity some people of all races & ethnicities still have towards people whose backgrounds are different from theirs.

That being said, I don't think that it is helpful to continue to blame White people alone for 17th-19th African slavery.

While it is true that chattel slavery was largely orchestrated by people of European descent, it is a documented fact that Black Africans and Arabians also were heavily involved in and also profited from African slavery.

Therefore Black Africans and Arabians also have 'blood on their hands', as some West African ethnic groups have acknowledged. Though I can't find the citations now, I recall reading that not too long ago some West African ethnic groups [in Ghana?] have asked forgiveness from African Americans for their role in slavery.

It seems to me that while it is important to study the real history of African slavery [and other examples of 'man's' inhumanity to 'man'], it is also important to do all we can in the present to make the future better for all people-irregardless of their race and ethnicity.

As the church song goes "If I can help somebody as I travel along..then my living will not be in vain..."


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 02:43 AM

Yes, Azizi, I think you are right when you said that there were also Black Africans that profited from the slave trade. Slavery is not a purely White concept. Slavery was practiced all over the world. It was also present in the Native populations of Pacific N.W.

There will also be individuals who discriminate on the basis of colour but when speaking of Affirmative Action, we are talking about institutionalized racism. It is the responsibility of the govt. to combat institutionalized racism by implementing policies such as Affirmative Action.

I am sorry you were subjected to such ignorance, Azizi. I would go even further and suggest that people who commit such acts are people who have very little personal power in their own lives. It seems to when people feel powerless in their personal lives that they seek to make the lives of others miserable. It must make you weary to forever have to discuss issues of racism. I know that there are other topics that are of more interest to you.

Keep strong.